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Old 06-17-2008, 02:40 AM   #21
1961casey
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Default Re: Marriage

The main problem with all male/female realationships is that most people enter it with the idea of what they can get out of it for themselves. With that frame of mind the relationship runs dry very quickly. If, instead, they determined beforehand that the person they are considering is mature and responsible and then that they have something to offer the other person then it is off to a better start.
Secondly, a healthy relationship is based on the realization that it takes time and effort to make it work. It involves things like taking deliberate time to simply be with the other person. Making sure there is no doubt that the other person knows that they are loved. (That means saying 'I love you' at least once a day. Right girls? Guys, take it from one who knows: 'You can never go wrong saying it, even if the girl should know better.) It means choosing the other person over time with friends. It means deciding to love the other person even if they are acting like a jerk/bitch. It means shutting up and just letting the other person vent off frustration no matter how silly it may seem. (Again guys, take it from someone who has been there.) It means remembering the little things that the other person likes and acting on it. It means getting to know their quirks and strengths. It means making sure that the other person is the most important person in the whole world to you. It means that whatever decision you make, the other person is at least aware of it beforehand and that they know you care about their opinion at least. It means saying 'I'm sorry' and meaning it. It means forgiving their mistakes and accepting their apology. Note that nowhere in the above paragraph is the condition 'when you feel like it' mentioned. You do it because it is important to the other person not because it satisfies some infantile need for self-gratification.
People have to realize that nowhere in the traditional wedding vows is it mentioned anything about how one '[i]feels[i]' toward the other person. Instead, it is a promise to stick by the other person no matter what. This is a vow, a promise and a commitment. It is a rational decision one makes. It is based on common sense and a realization that it is permanent or at least it is supposed to be.
The bottomline is this: loving someone is a decision you make not an emotion you feel.

If people were willing to accept their responsibility for their relationship with the other person then the divorce rate would drop dramatically. Unfortunately, we live in a very selfish society where personal wants and needs come before everything else including one's spouse. And when those wants and needs are not satisfied the participants move on to the next victim of their needs.

Last edited by 1961casey; 06-17-2008 at 02:41 AM.. Reason: logical progression
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: Marriage

So assuming people who actually enter into marriage with the best intentions but find it not what they were expecting, or not what they were looking for after all, you'd just rather suggest they "stick it out" and "accept their responsibility" instead of divorcing?

So...you'd rather us go back to the days where divorce was socially unacceptable and whole generations were raised in households that rather than being safe and secure places of love, were full of backbiting, fights, and clandestine affairs?
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Marriage

i don't see how it doesn't apply to same sex mariage but i agree with casey peope arent perfect and they do dumb stuff and u just have to accept it and move on with ur lilves
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
So assuming people who actually enter into marriage with the best intentions but find it not what they were expecting, or not what they were looking for after all, you'd just rather suggest they "stick it out" and "accept their responsibility" instead of divorcing?

So...you'd rather us go back to the days where divorce was socially unacceptable and whole generations were raised in households that rather than being safe and secure places of love, were full of backbiting, fights, and clandestine affairs?
Actually people should enter into marriage with their eyes wide open. Unromantic questions must be asked before they enter into a marriage contract. Questions such as: Is he financially stable? Does he have a criminal record? Is he reliable? Can he be trusted? Is he capable of self-sacrifice? I grant you that I'm asking from a woman's point of view but similar questions should be asked of the woman. If you really think about it, in the old, old days and in some cultures arranged marriages worked because these questions were asked and there were certain expectations that had to be met. If these kinds of non-romantic questions were properly answered the emotions in a marriage would have a solid base from which to operate, again reducing the need for divorce.
And where did you get the romantic notion that there are any households free of backbiting and fights. I grew up with brothers and sisters and believe me that a week without an episode was unrealistic. We had to learn to live with each other as immature siblings and our parents had to set the example. The home was safe and secure because both parents stayed with each other not because everything was idyllic.
I expect that you will come up with a series of 'what if's' but that assumes that the parents are not suitable spouses to begin with and that they had not done due diligence before getting married. As for clandestine affairs, last I checked only faithless cheats had them and that was grounds for divorce.

Last edited by 1961casey; 06-18-2008 at 12:54 AM.. Reason: additional clarification
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Marriage

Quote:
And where did you get the romantic notion that there are any households free of backbiting and fights. I grew up with brothers and sisters and believe me that a week without an episode was unrealistic.
I'm not talking about between siblings, I'm talking about between parents. "Our parents had to set the example" you say, which just shows that you missed my point entirely. Have you grown up in a house where your parents can't stand each other but won't or can't get a divorce? Constantly shouting at each other, slamming doors, storming out, crying alone, drinking alone? I was lucky enough to avoid that, but I've seen it first hand on more than one occasion and believe me when I tell you, that is not a pleasant arena to be raised in, and no matter how many times one parent or the other tells you that the problems aren't about you, you -know- they are about you and it can really be a hard way to live. A LOT of marriages during the years where one simply did NOT get a divorce generated households such as that.

Arranged marriages worked because people accepted the idea that they could and probably would be in a marriage of convenience not of love. If you ended up loving your spouse, so much the better, but you willingly subordinated that desire to the well-being of your family overall. There's a reason that as independance and awareness increases among younger people, that opposition to arranged marriages grows. People want to be able to -choose- who they want to be with whether they plan on filing a questionnaire beforehand or not.

Quote:
I expect that you will come up with a series of 'what if's' but that assumes that the parents are not suitable spouses to begin with and that they had not done due diligence before getting married.
My point, which you keep artfully dodging is something I shall restate again in comparison to the above statement of yours. How about this? "Even when one exercises "due diligence" one can end up in a marriage with someone else that -later on- becomes unhealthy." Perhaps someone's feelings changed, perhaps someone's status changed, perhaps there are new factors that didn't exist at the time, perhaps one of you has met someone you are yet more compatible with. I can think of many reasons for a marriage to no longer work down the road despite the fact that it showed every sign of working at the time. That describes my parents in fact. They exercised all the diligence you could demand, and were married for seven years before parting, perfectly amicably I might add, for reasons that didn't apply when they married. There were no problems, they just both agreed that things were not working out as they had intended or wanted, and so divorced. I'm quite sure however, that if you had your way, and they were somehow forbidden to divorce, that the amicable parting could have developed into bitterness, regret, and eventually festered into exactly the problems you say "only happen" when people rush into marriage blindly.

You can't tell me with 100% certainty exactly where you'll be, what you'll be doing and what your various needs and wants from relationships will be even 5 years from now. How can you possibly think that two people can generate 100% certainty with regards to where they'll be, what they'll be doing, and what they will need and want from a relationship across the next 40 years, in relation to the same from another person? That's ridiculous.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Marriage

Devonin described household situations where parents were screaming at each other, slamming doors and storming out on each other. This merely describes immature behaviour which should have been detected before they got married. This is stuff that is learned in childhood, not after growing up.


"Perhaps someone's feelings changed, perhaps someone's status changed, perhaps there are new factors that didn't exist at the time, perhaps one of you has met someone you are yet more compatible with. " Perhaps the fairy godmother will come down and wave a magic wand that will give you everything you need without working for it.

Guess what: your feelings WILL change, count on it. Your status will change, count on that too. New factors are a fact of life, anticipate it. And there will always be someone with whom you are more compatible, whatever that means. The point is that you PROMISED to stick with your partner no matter what and that includes all these conditions which are specifically covered in the traditional wedding vows. True romance is when you can go through life's problems with someone and know that they will be there with you and for you. To use such situations as a reason for divorce merely demonstrates how shallow the relationship was in the first place. A real relationship requires work, time and effort grounded in the real world of day to day life. It is not easy, it is not always fun, it is not good feelings 24/7/365. It is not a fairytale where they all lived happily ever after.

I know that I will not be the same person 5, 10, 20 and 40 years from now. I hope so. I also know that a true love relationship will not depend on how I remain the same. That is the ridiculous idea: a marriage is stable only for as long as two people don't change.
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:41 AM   #27
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Default Re: Marriage

So...you believe so wholeheartedly in the sanctity of marriage that even when a marriage is failing, you would rather insist that people have to "stick it out" instead of making an adult decision to part ways amicably before the problems get too bad.

Fair enough, but you clearly have no intention of discussing here, or considering the possibility that you are setting too high a set of standards for marriage.

Further, you seem to be expressing the idea that marriage is something people ought to be in, or at least that ending a marriage is some horrific travesty that should be avoided at all costs.

What's -bad- about a divorce?
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:59 AM   #28
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Default Re: Marriage

The only BAD thing about divorce, is that If you have kids, they most likely will think it's thier fault, and (can) will become depressed. Especially teenagers or kids who were close to both mom/stepmom/ stepdad.
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Old 06-19-2008, 11:27 AM   #29
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devonin: "Fair enough, but you clearly have no intention of discussing here, or considering the possibility that you are setting too high a set of standards for marriage."

He's not setting too high a standard for marriage. The expectations he's listed are what society expects from people in general, I think.

Talking about too high of expectations for marriage, high expectations I believe are probably the main reason marriage isn't working out (through increased divorce rates and less people getting married.) That 'love' in the fairytale, romantic way, which we've probably all experienced in one way or another, is what people seem to chase after, and understandably so! Those feelings are amazing. However, those feelings, in my experience, will never last forever. I think we all agree that people are taking longer to get married than before, because they want to 'make sure things will work out', avoiding situations like Devonin described. This happens these days because we're in an open society, (and things like this are known and talked about, and not hidden, unlike in previous generations). This extra time in the relationship also gives more time for that 'love high' to dissipate. When feelings like that go away, permanent things like 'marriage' to a person you're not head-over-heels for, or staying together with that person after marriage, are not in keeping in line with the goal of 'falling in love'.

So why are people chasing after 'love' and previous generations didn't as much? Traditions for marriage are largely gone these days, and with them gone, higher hopes have set in. Not only that, these dreams of Great Love are actually founded these days, moreso than before, in that there IS more communication. The number of people you can talk to these days is astounding. Even people who are housebound have the internet and chat forums and dating services to meet new people on, and to fall in love with.

Also, as to women working being connected to marriage decrease and divorce increase, there're a few things. One of them is liberty. You won't fall in love with someone else while at home raising 5 children, when the only person you ever see is your husband. There's simply less opportunity for forbidden fruit. Another one is that with women working, they're able to support themselves, at least moreso than before. And this means that if you ARE stuck in a terrible marriage, if you divorce, you've got options besides going to live with your mother. Imagine yourself having an abusive husband, not being able to get decent wages if you were to find work, having nowhere to live if you left, and having spent the last 10 years of your life staying at home raising kids. What would you do if you left?

(This lat reason I mentioned, is what a couple of my mid twenties fellow female friends say is thereason marriages end in divorce these days. When I tried to explain things like relambrien did, and other things in my post, they didn't agree with me at all. Sigh.)

Relambrien: I agree with most of your OP, expect that you say that all the reasons you talked about cause high divorce, which then causes people to NOT want to get married. I think we can remove that middle causality and simply apply your arguments as to the high divorce rate to why people don't get married these days as well.

Sarahxjane and tokzic, I believe, have given us, generally, what many people think of marriage. All we have to do is compare what they've said to attitudes towards marriage from previous times to understand, at least in part, why long-lasting marriages aren't du-jour.

tokzic: I disagree, however, that you should question the value of a relationship if you want to get married. The most recent wedding I attended was Hindu. Before it began, it was said that it would be in sanskrit (which no one besides the priest understood), and that it was done this way because it has been done like that for 4000 years. 4000 years!!! There was something...tremendousbout carrying on a tradition for so long. The ceremonyitself was not based on the 'love' between the people, but on that they would share thier lives with each other, much as Casey explained how successful marriages work. The old Hindu tradition was also that the husband and bride would never have met before being married, either.

In closing, I totally see many reasons as to why marriage is what it is today, however, I will say that I think it is largely due to 'love' not fitting well with marriage. This is only confounded by the fact that our society thinkslove and marriage are supposed to go hand in hand.

Last edited by Cavernio; 06-19-2008 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: Marriage

Thank you, cavernio, for your understanding.

Devonin, when two people enter into a marriage it is assumed that both parties are adults and capable of making adult decisions. As such, the adult decision should be to take steps to preserve and enhance the marriage instead of giving up. How can easily will a marriage fail if both parties are willing to work on it like adults?

Maybe I am setting some high standards. But wouldn't it be better than going into a relationship with such low standards that a minor glitch can destroy it? Isn't that a sad situation in which to be? Isn't it a travesty that such a time honored tradition can't be protected? Isn't it sad that half the people can't keep it going? Isn't it disappointing that so many people are willing to accept it as some kind of 'norm'? Maybe we should all be making more of an effort to encourage and protect marriage. Including looking at ourselves and our expectations of our relationships.
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:52 PM   #31
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Default Re: Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio
I will say that I think it is largely due to 'love' not fitting well with marriage. This is only confounded by the fact that our society thinkslove and marriage are supposed to go hand in hand.
This is actually a very interesting statement. I didn't realize it until now, but now I see that when I was younger, I thought of a clear cycle or pattern into which love fell.

Code:
Meet --> Date --> Fall in love --> Marry
^          |
|    Break up if necessary
|          |
|          |
^------------
You're quite right in that society considers love and marriage to go hand-in-hand (no pun intended). When you think about how this might not be the truth, things get interesting. It brings marriage down from a level of mythic elation, to a much more practical plane. Love is only one part of a healthy marriage--and thus, is neither necessary to create one nor to sustain one.

I'll have to think on that some more, actually.

EDIT: Responding to ninja.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961casey
As such, the adult decision should be to take steps to preserve and enhance the marriage instead of giving up.
Is this really the case? I would expect an "adult decision" to be one that is the most beneficial to all parties involved. I can think of many situations in which a divorce would be the best possible thing for both the husband and wife. If, as it turns out, circumstances have caused issues that mean the marriage isn't working, and both the husband and wife are unhappy, a divorce solves this 100%. The husband and wife are freed from their relationship problems, and don't have to worry about them resurfacing, as they would if they worked the problems out.

You'll have to explain why preserving a marriage is better than divorcing, which I haven't seen you do, yet. What benefits do the husband and wife have by staying together in unhappy conditions that cannot be matched by simply finding better conditions with another person? In other words, explain why preserving the marriage is "the most beneficial to all parties involved."

Last edited by Relambrien; 06-19-2008 at 10:58 PM..
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: Marriage

Quote:
As such, the adult decision should be to take steps to preserve and enhance the marriage instead of giving up. How can easily will a marriage fail if both parties are willing to work on it like adults?
Relambrien answered exactly how I was going to. You tacitly assume that staying married is always the better decision, the correct decision, and really don't provide any support as to why that should be.
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:43 AM   #33
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Have you noticed how often it is said "Well this circumstance came up so we might as well get a divorce." Why aren't people saying "This circumstance came up, what are we going to do to resolve it." It merely indicates the low standards people are willing to accept to justify their decisions.

"You'll have to explain why preserving a marriage is better than divorcing, which I haven't seen you do, yet. What benefits do the husband and wife have by staying together in unhappy conditions that cannot be matched by simply finding better conditions with another person? In other words, explain why preserving the marriage is "the most beneficial to all parties involved."

First of all, it is an indication of one's character or lack thereof. Your statement also assumes that the parties cannot do anything to correct the situation. Don't forget, we are supposed to be talking about mature, responsible adults who have made mature, responsible decisions before getting married, made a responsible decision to get married and made a binding promise to stick with the person no matter what. Well 'what' has now arrived. What would be the mature, responsible thing to do? These are circumstances outside the relationship that should not have any bearing on the individuals decisions. Instead they should be looking to each other for support. You asked what benefits are there? Well, for one, the people learn to face their problems and deal with them. They develope character. They discover the depth of their commitment to each other. They discover that there is someone is going to stick by them for their mutual care, comfort and support. They relationship becomes stronger when they realize that, in spite of outside problems, their partner will remain their partner because of their commitment not their convenience. I could go on but I think I may have made my point.

Secondly, if a person is unwilling to stick with one relationship because of circumstances, they are not going to fare any better in the next relationship because similar circumstances will evoke the same response: quit. The problem lies not with the circumstances but with the individual. And they will carry those problems with them wherever they go until they learn to deal with circumstances. Therefore it doesn't matter if they divorce or not, they still have not dealt with their personal problems and their next relationship will suffer in the same way when those problems resurface, and they will.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:43 AM   #34
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quoting 1961casey: "The problem lies not with the circumstances but with the individual."
This isn't always the case though. Perhaps its those 2 people together who don't work out. However, seeing how long couples stay together unmarried these days, (their entire lives some of them), if one decides to get married after living with them for a few years, then I don't see how you cannot know the character of the other person.

As usual, I'm divided between the 2 arguments being made, in whether divorcing is good or bad. I certainly feel the attitude of "Why settle for less?", particularly in terms of relationships. And I'm also quite the revolutionary when it comes to following tradition for the sake of following tradition, especially when following that tradition can be harmful. Casey's argument comes together, I think, when he/she says that if one marriage isn't working out, then likely other ones won't either. Relambrien and Devonin, on the other hand, (although nothing is said yet), will probably say something like "So what?" to this argument, because the goal is not necessarily to have a life-long relationship.

I think I'm too young to say whether it's better to have something life-long or not. Rather, I'm leaning towards saying that life-long must have some merits that I obviously haven't experienced yet, however, this is totally counter what I've held since highschool, which is that it's foolish to ever believe I will only ever fall in love with 1 person at any given moment. I know that this isn't true for everyone though.


quoting relambrien: If, as it turns out, circumstances have caused issues that mean the marriage isn't working, and both the husband and wife are unhappy, a divorce solves this 100%. The husband and wife are freed from their relationship problems, and don't have to worry about them resurfacing, as they would if they worked the problems out.

A divorce doesn't always solve things 100%, especially if kids are involved. However, even if their personal problems are worked out but divorcing, there's other problems which can arise. What if you were a stay-at-home parent, who has absolutely no source of income? What if you and your spouse have all the same friends, and even worse, what if they've chosen to 'take sides' against you? What if you're from a small town and avoiding further arguments with them means changing cities? What if you both work at the same place, or in the same field and have regular contact with them outside your home? Even if none of these apply, you're still upsetting your life, which can be very hard to deal with. Besides, these are all situations that can happen when both parties want to divorce. If the divorce is largely 1-sided, you're not going to be happy with it.

As an addition to my previous post, I've since thought of another fairly obvious reason why divorce is rising along with women working. Good relationships need time together, and when both people are working, there's a lot less time for simply being with each other. Complimenting this, there's also more stress.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:49 AM   #35
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Default Re: Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961casey
First of all, it is an indication of one's character or lack thereof.
It takes a lot of character to get a divorce in a culture full of people like you who will insist that only idiots and weaklings get a divorce instead of 'sticking it out' or trying to 'make it work anyway'

Quote:
Don't forget, we are supposed to be talking about mature, responsible adults who have made mature, responsible decisions before getting married, made a responsible decision to get married and made a binding promise to stick with the person no matter what.
Pretty sure not everyone who gets married gets married in a church that requires you to stipulate "until death do us part" Not every marriage involves such a promise, nor do I agree that even having such a marriage constitutes a -binding- promise.

Quote:
They discover the depth of their commitment to each other.
It's when they do this deep soul-searching and discover that the commitment isn't quite as deep as they had perhaps earlier assumed that they consider divorce. I don't know what it is about divorce that you think anyone who gets one is using it as "the easy way out" Sure, there are plenty of people who consider divorce at the first sign of trouble, but virtually every divorcee I know exhausted pretty much every other avenue beforehand. Counselling, therapy, you name it. It's perhaps more of a -last- resort than you seem willing to even consider.

Quote:
Secondly, if a person is unwilling to stick with one relationship because of circumstances, they are not going to fare any better in the next relationship because similar circumstances will evoke the same response: quit. The problem lies not with the circumstances but with the individual. And they will carry those problems with them wherever they go until they learn to deal with circumstances. Therefore it doesn't matter if they divorce or not, they still have not dealt with their personal problems and their next relationship will suffer in the same way when those problems resurface, and they will.
Once again, you're assuming that a whole lot of circumstances are simply true of all cases of divorce. My dad got divorced, and has since remarried and believe me when I tell you, that there is -no- chance whatsoever that such a thing will happen again. He has been quite happily remarried for the better part of two decades, surely enough time for the glaring personal flaws you want to automatically assign him to assert themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio
I've since thought of another fairly obvious reason why divorce is rising along with women working. Good relationships need time together, and when both people are working, there's a lot less time for simply being with each other.
If the husband is spending a full working day out of the house, they are apart whether the woman spends the -exact same hours- also at work, or sitting at home watching soap operas. This reason simply holds no water.
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:40 PM   #36
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Boy, where do I start. Well, let's begin with Cavernio's last post.

You state "if one decides to get married after living with them for a few years, then I don't see how you cannot know the character of the other person." You are exactly right, which bolsters the argument in favour of a long dating and engagement period during which "This extra time in the relationship also gives more time for that 'love high' to dissipate." and cold rational analysis can begin. The end result being that you know with whom you are dealing and the rose-coloured, or 'love-coloured', glasses have come off.

'Falling in love' is an emotional event, it can occur with a variety of people in your life for a variety of reasons. It is wonderful when it happens but it is also as unreliable as the rest of one's emotions and therefore not a standard by which to judge someone else. Basically the thinking goes 'He/She makes me feel so wonderful that I know I am falling in love.' but that changes when they do or say something unpleasant and the feeling disappears. Then what is left? The object of your affection must make you feel wonderful all the time or else it is not love. It is an unfair and unrealistic burden to place on someone and doesn't require effort on your own part. Talk about selfish especially when it is used to judge the quality of a relationship.

Devonin: 'It takes a lot of character to get a divorce in a culture full of people like you who will insist that only idiots and weaklings get a divorce instead of 'sticking it out' or trying to 'make it work anyway'

I did not say or imply 'idiots and weaklings', I said 'a lack of character'.
It does not take 'character' to do what you want in spite of societal pressure. It the reason we have laws and why we have people who still break them. It is not 'a lot of character' to get a divorce but selfishness or foolishness.

I have to correct a redundancy I commited when I described marriage as a 'binding promise'. A promise is binding in and of itself and to say that it is a 'binding' is unnecessarily repetative.

Devonin states: "It's when they do this deep soul-searching and discover that the commitment isn't quite as deep as they had perhaps earlier assumed that they consider divorce."

You are referring to a statement I made as part of a list of benefits of sticking together in spite of problems. The benefits come after working through their problems, not after a divorce.

Finally, Devonin, you refer to your own Dad as an example of a successful second marriage. I would be very interested to hear what he would have to say. Why did the first marriage not work out? What would or should he have done differently? What changed between the two marriages? Why is his second marriage so successful? Would he like to see his son learn from his mistakes, and if so what would he teach?
Honestly, I am very glad that your Dad has managed to remain happily remarried, and I hope that will be able to celebrate a fiftieth wedding anniversary, even if it is overly-ambitious. I think it would be worthwhile to hear from someone who has gone through a divorce, what they learned and what they would do differently. Hopefully we can learn from someone's experience and perhaps avoid some disappointment at the least.
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Old 06-20-2008, 01:18 PM   #37
darkness1477
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Default Re: Marriage

you all stated some good arguments
i agree with most of what casey says but she seems unwillingly to consider how unforseen changes can and should result in divorce. for example this man and woman were happily married for years and then he got addicted to crack and forgot all about his wife. isn't that a good reason for divorce? this man and woman were happily married for 10 years and then thte wife met up with with this guy she liked in high school and since she was never able to date him in high school she decided she would since she was able to now. is't a good reason for the husband to divorce her? this man and woman were married for a few years and then they had thier first child, a little baby girl. 10 years later the wife caught the man having sex with the child. when they asked him why he said she reminded him of his wife. isn't that good reason to divorce? my frind was married for 3 years and one day his wife told him he was everything she wanted except light skinned. is that a marriage worth staying in were your spuose will never be happy with you just because your skin is as dark as hers?



and what is the point of entering a loveless marriage

Last edited by darkness1477; 06-20-2008 at 01:25 PM.. Reason: i had something else to say
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:49 PM   #38
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I stand corrected: there are good reasons for divorce and darkness1477 hit most of them. The three reasons I would accept would be abuse, addiction and adultery. I will leave it at that, and accept the scorn that is about to be heaped on me.
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:07 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
If the husband is spending a full working day out of the house, they are apart whether the woman spends the -exact same hours- also at work, or sitting at home watching soap operas. This reason simply holds no water.
I really didn't think that I'd have to spell things out about this. Firstly, you talk about husband and wife working exact same hours, which doesn't always happen.
Totally besides this, however, I'm shocked at your lack of noticing how much work is put into everyday household chores, paricularly if you're a house-owner. Sure it's mindless work, but laundry, cooking, cleaning and yard-work are all time consuming. Not a full 8 hours worth of work a day, but usually a couple. An 8 hour work day doesn't mean only 8 hours of work for one to do in a day if they come home and have to make supper, clean up afterwards, and then vacuum. Or, you could not do these things and end up spending way more money than you ever thought possible on eating out, and living in a dirty home, which most people find stressful. And we haven't even considered kids yet, which we certainly should considering we're talking about marriage, but I think you can see where I'd go with that.
Even pretending there's never any housework to be done, working full-time can be stressful. If both people come home grumpy and tired, who ends up giving the other person a backrub, or cooking dinner, or doing the laundry; who takes the stress away from the other person? My experience in relationships is that when both people are grumpy, arguements tend to ensue, and its much harder to be level-headed after a stressful day of work.
Lastly, we should consider one of the reasons why so many women are working these days: because they have to for the money, regardless of their husband working full-time. Even in families where both parents are working these days, you can still be poor. And money problems definitely cause stress.

1961casey: I'm surprised you consider adultery to be an absolute to break up a marriage. I perceive cheating to be a common problem, and one which I also perceive, couples work out often. My perceptions could be wrong.
I also have a question; what if someone in the marriage develops serious mental illness, is it OK to divorce then?

Last edited by Cavernio; 06-21-2008 at 09:21 AM..
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:04 AM   #40
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Um...pretty sure I know exactly how much work is involved with keeping house. The purpose of the statement was "If the people are apart for 8 or 9 hours every day, it shouldn't matter whether the places they are apart are workplace/home or workplace/workplace they will still be just as apart" you latched onto a device of emphasis and completely ignored the actual point I was making.
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