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Old 06-9-2008, 05:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy View Post
We observe things changing.
Which is what time is, essentially. I think you're missing a point here. Time is the name we denote to the phenomenon of change. It is something that can be measured and quantified, and also manipulated.

Imagine for a second if we removed time. What would happen? Everything would happen at once. Everything. Evidently the physical constraints at the beginning of the universe (i.e. the big bang) did not or could not allow this, and attributed some measurable space-time quantity to all objects. Without time, there is no separation of cause and effect and the universe would be incredibly chaotic.
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: Time

Actually, I think nothing would happen at all, as in if there was no time, there would be no space. Time and space are coexistent. One cannot exist without the other. If we hypothetically remove time, we would also remove space.

Another interesting idea:
Just like the fundamental forces (electromagnetic, weak, strong, gravity) are all variations of the same force, and matter and energy are variations of the same substance, what if time and space are variations of the same vector quantity? Of course, the origin of this superforce, supersubstance and supervector is impossible to experimentally discover without observing the big bang. (No, Large Hadron Collider will definitely not recreate the big bang. Definitely not enough energy (or rather, something more exotic. It's not energy that started the universe), so that's just a rumor.)
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Time

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Originally Posted by Xx{Midday}xX View Post
Actually, I think nothing would happen at all, as in if there was no time, there would be no space. Time and space are coexistent. One cannot exist without the other. If we hypothetically remove time, we would also remove space.
Right. Congratulations, you put the pieces of the puzzle together.

I was being hypothetical to show Izzy that consequently there must be time in the universe and it does exist (or you otherwise run into problems explaining how we're here in the first place, as you just pointed out.)
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: Time

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
Which is what time is, essentially. I think you're missing a point here. Time is the name we denote to the phenomenon of change. It is something that can be measured and quantified, and also manipulated.

Imagine for a second if we removed time. What would happen? Everything would happen at once. Everything. Evidently the physical constraints at the beginning of the universe (i.e. the big bang) did not or could not allow this, and attributed some measurable space-time quantity to all objects. Without time, there is no separation of cause and effect and the universe would be incredibly chaotic.
I understand that but you are also missing the point. Because you cant remove time because its not a thing that can manipulated as an actual thing. Its just a concept.
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Time

Time isn't a vector, it's a component of a vector.

And of course the idea of time wouldn't exist if we didn't make it up.

Edit: Why do you think time just a concept?
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: Time

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Originally Posted by Izzy View Post
I understand that but you are also missing the point. Because you cant remove time because its not a thing that can manipulated as an actual thing. Its just a concept.
What. You can manipulate time. What exactly is an 'actual thing' defined as?

You can't remove gravity either, and it is not a 'thing that can be manipulated as an actual thing', yet I would challenge you to tell me that gravity does not exist and is just a concept.
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy View Post
I understand that but you are also missing the point. Because you cant remove time because its not a thing that can manipulated as an actual thing. Its just a concept.
How do you differentiate between time and space in that time is a concept and space is not?

Bluguerilla, time is definitely a vector quantity. It has the properties of acceleration as shown by Einstein's theory of relativity. Calculus shows that anything with an acceleration has an integral, which is a velocity (both vector quantities).
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:56 PM   #28
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Default Re: Time

Why do you think time isn't just a concept. We might be trying to think about two different things here. I am not sure anymore. The first post sums up what i am talking about pretty easily.

Edit: Also you can manipulate gravity with mass.
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Old 06-9-2008, 05:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Time

You can manipulate time with space. It is experimentally proven that a clock in motion (considerable motion, as in as close to the speed of light as possible) ticks slower than a clock standing still.

If you think time is a concept, then you should be thinking that space is also just a concept. Correct? If so, then I wouldn't have anything against it, because it is impossible to prove that human perception is justifiable as the truth. (In which concept is defined as an illusional theory with no sound foundation.
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Old 06-9-2008, 06:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: Time

Yes i know you can manipulate what we perceive as time by a difference in whats changing because of the speed. A clock isn't some godly object that is the definition of time. A clock works by things moving. Has nothing to do with time.
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Old 06-9-2008, 06:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx{Midday}xX View Post
Bluguerilla, time is definitely a vector quantity. It has the properties of acceleration as shown by Einstein's theory of relativity. Calculus shows that anything with an acceleration has an integral, which is a velocity (both vector quantities).
No, a vector has magnitude and direction.

Time does not have the property of acceleration or velocity as those are both derivatives with respect to time.

The space-time vector is r = (x,y,z,t), t being time, and that's as far as I'm going into this as this discussion isn't so much about physics and geometry as it is about philosophy (sic).

Edit: Izzy, could you elaborate on your viewpoint a little?
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Old 06-9-2008, 06:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy View Post
Yes i know you can manipulate what we perceive as time by a difference in whats changing because of the speed. A clock isn't some godly object that is the definition of time. A clock works by things moving. Has nothing to do with time.
A variation of a supposedly constant motion is a percepted difference. What's wrong with using that as evidence?

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Originally Posted by bluguerrilla View Post
No, a vector has magnitude and direction.

Time does not have the property of acceleration or velocity as those are both derivatives with respect to time.

The space-time vector is r = (x,y,z,t) and that's as far as I'm going into this as this discussion isn't so much about physics and geometry as it is about philosophy (sic).
See, this is the misconception I was stating earlier. Time can slow down and speed up. Which means it can change magnitude. In theory, time can also slow down to the point it's almost zero, by reaching the speed of light. However, it takes more energy (if it is energy that is required) to transcend the speed of light than to sustain the properties of spacetime fabric, which makes it impossible to go backwards in time. Another way to look at this would be to say, you have to make the value of the time vector equal to zero, which is the same as removing time. However, time is not a scalar quantity, because it possesses the properties of rate and acceleration. Time should truly be defined as seconds per meter. In reality, just like distance=meter, and velocity=meter per second, time=second and ?????=second per meter, but we don't have a term for that as of today. Therefore, we just use time. Time in the second form is a scalar, but is a vector in the form of second per meter.

To Izzy: Actually, the theory concerning seconds per meter is completely my original ideology.
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Old 06-9-2008, 06:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Time

So what direction is time pointed in?

Also, are you saying that t := f(n) where n = dt/dx?
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Old 06-9-2008, 06:11 PM   #34
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Default Re: Time

The direction we're headed in now. Like all torque and force vector problems, we arbitrarily assign it a charge. In this case, I would probably call it positive. Direction is an arbitrary term. Nothing truly is positive or negative. We just use those terms to differentiate between directions. An electron could be termed positive, as long as a proton is termed negative. Left could be termed right as long as right is termed left. Etc.

Time (seconds) is a scalar. Time (seconds per meter) is a vector. Time (seconds per meters squared) is a vector. Time (s/m) is f(x), time (s/m^2) would be the derivative of f(x).

I will leave this thread now. My mom wants to play SWR. =)
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Old 06-9-2008, 07:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Time

http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html

It appears that I'm not the only one who has come to similar conclusions. Although i haven't read this entire page i think it is about what i am saying. It's not something that contradicts anything anyone has said in this thread. It's just another way of looking at it.
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:25 PM   #36
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Default Re: Time

time is really nothing more than man's observations on things we have no reference for and will never comepletly understand. we can make up all sorts of theroies, but there are things we will never understand no matter how hard we try but instead of accepting that we make up a bunch of crap that makes sense at the time but in the ennd are just guesses and needed to be treated as such.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Time

Time and motion work together. If there is no time, then there is no motion. Also, isn't time non-existent? Something that humans simply made up?
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: Time

I mentioned pretty extensively before, my opinion that time exists objectively outside the bounds of humanity's invention. What humans made up is the particular scale and duration of the measurements we apply to time.

It would exist and function whether we had created the concept of seconds, minutes, hours, years etc. But the labels are of our own devising.
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: Time

Agreed with devonin. As I asked before, how come time is treated so differently from space? If time is such an "inexistent entity", how come space isn't treated likewise?
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:48 PM   #40
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Default Re: Time

time and space may not be alike at all just because it looks tghat way from how we percieve it does that mean that maybe we can't be wrong?
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