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Old 04-6-2008, 03:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

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However there have been on stars.
Seems to me that since the terms of the treaties forbid ownership of such things, that anyone claiming ownership of such things is just scamming.
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Old 04-6-2008, 04:35 AM   #42
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

I think the first person to get up there and have enough weapons to claim it would own the moon. You said mining rights? what kind of useful resources are even on the moon.
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Old 04-6-2008, 11:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Why is this thread back up?

Izzy, read the first 2 pages and you will find all your questions answered.

I don't have a comment on this anymore, we are running in circles here debating that it requires recognition for any nation to claim the moon yet nations with power can seize the moon themselves. Thats the basic summary of the last few posts.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Bingo. That's exactly what it would be.
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Seems to me that since the terms of the treaties forbid ownership of such things, that anyone claiming ownership of such things is just scamming.
Now, izzy, if that were true that the Africans mule still control Australia, the Native Americans your own North America, the Saxons; England, etc etc.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

I believe it was the Europeans who had more than enough firepower to suppress the natives or aboriginals, not the other way around.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:26 PM   #46
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

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I believe it was the Europeans who had more than enough firepower to suppress the natives or aboriginals, not the other way around.
Technically the Chinese invented gun powder. But my point is, based on the logic that who ever gets there first gets it, practically everything we know today isn't technically ours then.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 04-6-2008, 12:28 PM   #47
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Rzr: It's in Worcester, MA.

Devonin: The terms of the treaties only forbid states and governments from owning land or property. If a corporation were to gain the backing of multiple states, then, oddly enough it would still be considered a private entity and as such has the permission to claim rights on portions of the moon. This is one of the things that's important; what's to stop one big company from getting financial backing from a handful of countries, going up and claiming the entire moon?
Who would be able to stop them? The UN doesn't have a security force capable of protecting rights in space, and as such it seems hard to even make the laws apply. But, then again, if the laws don't apply then it's basically open war in space. We're trying to find a balance that allows for all of these things to be peaceful and prosperous (lol star trek \\//).

But then, if a company is allowed to claim X amount of land, there are other things to consider. The south pole has the highest concentration of water (hydrogen and oxygen) on the entire moon, so that's valuable. The equator has the highest concentrations of Helium 3 and other important resources, so that's also important. The very tall mountains, which can get solar coverage 24/7 to power your lunar base, are also very important. How do we stop people from claiming these exceedingly important areas privately? The mountains and south pole in particular need to be public use because they allow for survival up there.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:31 PM   #48
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

I don't think thats all there is to that theory. You get there first and you can keep it, that makes it yours. However, I don't believe the same generic theory applies to space bodies, for it has a worldwide complexity and many difficulties to consider.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:33 PM   #49
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

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I don't think thats all there is to that theory. You get there first and you can keep it, that makes it yours. However, I don't believe the same generic theory applies to space bodies, for it has a worldwide complexity and many difficulties to consider.
Plus there are kinda a lot of laws prohibiting space weaponization.
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Old 04-6-2008, 12:37 PM   #50
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Polk: that's where my uncle lives. I just asked if I could take the train up to visit him but my dad said no

Now, zythus, I think that if the logic is correct in saying 'finders keepers' then it should more so be that whoever has the greatest understanding of the unclaimed object may claim it.
But that entails a whole new aspect of care and nurturing. If my previously stated logic is correct, then the same could be said about claiming animals. However, society would say otherwise because even if one fully understood what one was claiming, they may not treat it properly.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 04-6-2008, 02:01 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Aw, well thanks for trying Rzr.
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Old 04-6-2008, 02:22 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

No problem it would have been cool
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

i guess their alcohol tolerance isnt as high as mine
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Old 04-6-2008, 05:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

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Originally Posted by rzr View Post
Now, zythus, I think that if the logic is correct in saying 'finders keepers' then it should more so be that whoever has the greatest understanding of the unclaimed object may claim it.
But that entails a whole new aspect of care and nurturing. If my previously stated logic is correct, then the same could be said about claiming animals. However, society would say otherwise because even if one fully understood what one was claiming, they may not treat it properly.
Wait what?

Izzy said
Quote:
I think the first person to get up there and have enough weapons to claim it would own the moon.
And you said
Quote:
Now, izzy, if that were true that the Africans mule still control Australia, the Native Americans your own North America, the Saxons; England, etc etc.
I think you've concluded the wrong schoolyard truism. This isn't "finders keepers" it's "might makes right" I suspect Izzy would also state that if someone else went up there with more and bigger weapons, they would own the moon and so on. Zythus was just pointing out that distinction, that it was the europeans who had "enough weapons" to go to north american and claim it, and thus own it.

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Originally Posted by JKPolk
Devonin: The terms of the treaties only forbid states and governments from owning land or property. If a corporation were to gain the backing of multiple states, then, oddly enough it would still be considered a private entity and as such has the permission to claim rights on portions of the moon. This is one of the things that's important; what's to stop one big company from getting financial backing from a handful of countries, going up and claiming the entire moon?
We're assuming they could get support from at least one Security Council nation, and that at least 3 more, preferably all 5 were on board with the idea. I mean, does the treaty specifically say "No states, but private companies are fine" or do we conclude that private companies are fine solely on the grounds of their not being mentioned in the treaty?

I suspect that when the treaty was made it was simply assumed that nobody that wasn't a government would ever have a space program, and thus didn't need mentioning, but I don't think there would be nearly enough international recognition of Mooncrosoft for them to be able to make that play.

But then, politics as a concept is nothing but the power to make other people do things you want them to, so I suppose it is nominally possible that with sufficient support, a company could try to claim the moon, but I think if that happened, instead of people going "Oh darn, we should have planned for that when we made the treaty" the overwhelming reaction would be "Oh, private companies have space programs now? Time to redo the treaty"
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Old 04-6-2008, 05:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

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Polk: that's where my uncle lives. I just asked if I could take the train up to visit him but my dad said no

Now, zythus, I think that if the logic is correct in saying 'finders keepers' then it should more so be that whoever has the greatest understanding of the unclaimed object may claim it.
But that entails a whole new aspect of care and nurturing. If my previously stated logic is correct, then the same could be said about claiming animals. However, society would say otherwise because even if one fully understood what one was claiming, they may not treat it properly.
Uh no. Claiming the moon will not be about greatest knowledge, in fact, claiming anything isn't about greatest knowledge. So the natives knew how to farm the land and keep the sylvan environment, yet the Europeans came with their haul of diseases, guns, and whatever else that ensure their domination of North America. "I know that theres Helium-3 on the moon! you don't! So its mine" does not in any particular way entitle the property to an owner.
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Old 04-6-2008, 06:28 PM   #55
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

To quote the relevant articles from the OST, article 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OST Article II
Outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.
National appropriation, key words. The Moon Treaty, in 1979, went on to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Treaty Article 11.3
Neither the surface nor the subsurface of the moon, nor any part thereof or natural resources in place, shall become property of any State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental organization, national organization, or non-governmental entity or of any natural person.
The difference between them is glaring. OST prohibits only national appropriation, where the Moon Treaty specifically states "non-governmental agency or natural person." The fact that the key members of the UN SC, including the US and Russia, never signed the Moon Treaty shows that they left out private ownership from the OST on purpose.
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Old 04-6-2008, 07:31 PM   #56
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

@ zythus: I'm saying logically whoever has the most knowledge should have the most control over it. That doesn't mean they will. You're perfectly right in saying that (to paraphrase) violence and physical force will initially overcome logic everytime.

@ Polk: note that both articles neither specify which moon may not be claimed or any other space bodies. So to say that America could claim Earth's moon right now by those articles. When questioned they could use the loop hole and say "we thought you meant Saturn's moon."
To make a joke out of it, I, Edmund Joseph Nolan III. am henceforth claiming the planet of Mars, its rings, its moon, and 1000 Earth miles into Mars' physical atmosphere along with all discovered inhabitants and undiscoved inhabitants, and all matter within the specific atmosphere through the cop of said planet.

There. Now I'm auctioning it off. To start the bidding: a 1 year subscription.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

i guess their alcohol tolerance isnt as high as mine
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Old 04-6-2008, 07:52 PM   #57
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

The Moon with a capitalized M is always understood to mean Earth's moon, just as "The Sun" is understood to mean Sol
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Old 04-6-2008, 08:31 PM   #58
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Which is just an implication. And implications always lead to assumptions. And we all know what they say about assumptions.
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Everyone sucks at this game. The second you think you're good is the second you stop trying to get better.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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Originally Posted by Sprite-
More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

i guess their alcohol tolerance isnt as high as mine
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Old 04-6-2008, 08:51 PM   #59
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Rzr, be realistic. That argument doesn't really fit into CT.
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Old 04-6-2008, 11:25 PM   #60
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Default Re: Who owns the moon?

Lol, no, a mere comment.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

i guess their alcohol tolerance isnt as high as mine
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