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#1 |
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FFR Player
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I'm kind of hesitant to write this topic for two reasons. One - it's just a bunch of musing that hit me out of nowhere and made me think for an hour, and due to said musing being about completely abstract ideas, none of my thoughts are very coherant. This is probably going to turn into a Coberst topic. Two - whenever I muse about anything at all, I find out that some philosopher has already thought of everything that I've thought. For example, I came up with chaos theory by myself without knowing what it was until I summarised my thoughts to a forum, making the entire thought process a huge waste of time. So let's see if anyone's thought this up yet.
It occurred to me that the phrase "in the universe" bugged me a lot. The universe is everything, not merely the borders of the space which encompasses everything. People talk about it like it's a box, but the nature of it puts it beyond that line of thinking. And yet whenever someone makes a comment about how small they feel when they look at the stars, the phrase "in the universe" pops up. What it should be is "of the universe", not "in". Which got me to thinking - that's a very different perspective. It's so easy to forget that you're made of matter just like anything else. It's also rather interesting to consider that a part of the universe is you. We have direct control over the ultimate fate of our own personal pile of atoms for a handful of decades. But isn't the control a farce? Consider - everyhing we do is based on what we want to do. However, we control none of our wants. All of our desires are based on instincts, genes, and situation. We don't control any of these things. So when we have a menu put in front of us, making a choice is simply succumbing to whatever combination of instincts, genes, and situation is applicable. Knowing this and picking something besides what you want on purpose is succumbing to a more powerful want given the current situation. Everything that we want is beyond our control. Doesn't that mean that the universe's ultimate fate has been set since the beginning of time? After all, chance is an illusion too by the same lines. Once the laws are set for existence, everything that happens - from beginning to end (if such things exist) - is inevitable. So from this, the sense of self, the sense of living, is an illusion. The entire experience is based on a pile of situational circumstances that are beyond anybody's control. You get pulled in and have your hard-coded by the wants of your parents. You begin experiencing the situations that shape your soft-set wants. And then you die, having accomplished nothing but act based on the programming you've been hand-fed from fate. But to think that we're matter, on top of it all. It's so surreal to think that if you watch a bunch of rocks long enough, some of the rocks will suddenly gain the perception that they are separate from all the other matter in the oven (or do they have this already?). Then they start feeling good and bad based on what happens between the rocks. Then they stop having the perception that they are separate, and go back to being normal rocks that don't think anything (or do they?). Pointless speculation time. Isn't it odd that everything that we know was created by one happening? If we were all created from the same Bang, then are we all linked? Are we all somehow conscious of one another on an atomic scale? When we die, do our atoms regain the true consciousness, the consciousness of all existence? I guess what I'm getting at here is that the question "What is the meaning of life?" isn't broad enough. The true question is: "Why does anything at all exist?"
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Last edited by Tokzic: Today at 11:59 PM. Reason: wait what |
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#2 |
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FFR Player
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To support your idea, one could assume that life, or shall we say existance, is a huge chain reaction. You drop one ball on a gigantic floor filled with mouse traps that each have a ball attached to them. Once a trap is activated, it throws a ball which activates another one - randomly (let's assume randomness is plausible in this context) - and so forth. The chain reaction can be different each time, as not all the traps would be activated and not necessarely in the same order. The result will be different as well: The final trap activated can vary, the number of traps activated as well. But in the end, what has to be done was done. There is no more movement and life is complete.
I'm not sure if this can help clarify your model, but this is what I thought of when I read your post. Now for the question: Why? Does there have to be a "why"? I don't think that as a human being it's possible to fully understand those questions simply because our mind are not able to think this far. It's like trying to run a marathon for 40 days. It's practically impossible. I know this is a ****ty answer but I think in the end we all have to face it: There are few chances humans of our generation, of our time will ever understand the true origins of our world in a rational manner.
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Truth lies in loneliness, When hope is long gone by -Blind Guardian, The Soulforged Image removed for size violation. |
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#3 |
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FFR Player
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I'm not expecting an answer on the question, I was just making a point of the fact that most people are transfixed on the fact that they are alive when the true remarkable thing is that anything exists at all.
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Last edited by Tokzic: Today at 11:59 PM. Reason: wait what |
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#4 | ||||||
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Little Chief Hare
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#5 | |||||
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Very Grave Indeed
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Given that your conclusion seems to be nihilistic determinism, where nothing matters because nothing has meaning, yet nobody has any choice in their actions, I'm at a bit of a loss to understand what points of discussion you could be looking to engage in.
A few things stuck out at me though. Quote:
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Personally, I think it would be more cogent to say that we have free will within certain guidelines (So I guess it isn't -totally- free will) The universe does seem to run according to very specific and fixed rules, most of which we're still coming to understand properly. It seems like we can actually do anything we like, as long as it follows the overall rules. I mean, I'm not fated to type this because of an infinitely long chain of cause and effect starting with the big bang, I can't see any evidence of that, but typing this is one of the valid choices that follow the rules, so I can make it. I can't, conversely decide to float 6 inches off the floor, because rules like gravitation tell me that it isn't a valid choice. Quote:
Your parents -try- to instill certain values into you, and you are free to decide to accept them or not. If we were "fated" to be "hard-coded" by the wants of our parents, why do so many children and teenagers go through rebellious phases where they thwart their parents' desires? And yet, it can't be fate that all children try to rebel, because all of them don't. It just sounds to me like you're concluding that because actions have consequences that seem reasonable to you given the actions (As opposed to consequences that are seemingly random) that those consequences must be -required- by those choices no matter what. One of the strongest things going against deterministic systems is that whether things are pre-determined or not, we have a -fantastically- accurate illusion of free will. So accurate, that the vast majority of people find it incredibly difficult to even comprehend -how- determinism would work, and even in religious systems with an all-powerful, all-knowing diety, with a specific and explicit divine plan for all creation, it is simply assumed that free will -must- exist. Quote:
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#6 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: it's a mystery oooo
Posts: 3,221
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It's completely feasible that humans (as well as other life forms) are all governed by an infinite set of what you could describe as self-sustaining equations, but it would seem that the concept of free will transcends a purely objective realm, and if it does not indeed exist outside the bounds of determinism, than it at least exists in its own sense, and must therefore be an intrinsic part of the so-called universal equation.
Yes, every action in the universe changes it in a way such that every other action thereafter will be changed (with degree varying directly with time in between the cause and effect), essentially causing a version of what we know as the butterfly effect, but in the case of humans and such, those actions are the direct result of free will. With respect to the equation, then, free will is a value that is both a given and a product, and the equation cannot exist before those values do. Yes, in a sense, I am following the proposed "predetermined" path with every action I take, but it is the choices that I make that in turn determine what that path is, not vice versa. Free will resides within its own closed system, which is that of the perception of its immediate possessor, but the affectation of it extends back to anything outside of it (e.g., the rest of the universe), which is what molds the future. The perception of it is based on the action and the actual being, not on a consideration of the scientific hardwiring that is responsible for it. In my opinion, for reasons devonin has previously shed light on, nihilistic determinism cannot be completely disproved, per se, but it conversely cannot be proven. That being said, there really isn't much to debate on. |
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#7 | |
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FFR Player
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Last edited by Tokzic: Today at 11:59 PM. Reason: wait what |
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#8 |
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FFR Player
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I consider instincts and genes to simply add on to the empty canvas we call 'personality' that we slowly add to as we grow up and have new experiences.
Surely, it is our instinct to reproduce, I won't disagree. But consider the guy who, despite his sexual desires, chooses to remain abstinent. Think of the couple who does not want to have a child. This is where your third aspect comes into play: situation. The scenario one may be in may or may not be in one's control, and it usually isn't. However, it was in someone else's, and it was this person's choice to create it or add on to it. Choice is not an automated response to one's circumstances, as those circumstances aren't preconceived reactions to our instincts and choices. One could analyze the outcome of any choice one makes but nobody but the decision maker could know which branch he'd take. A starving man hungers not because he wants food but because it is his instinct to need food. The desire is a totally different thing. The fasting man will hunger but he chooses not to for culture's sake or reason X. The circumstances he may find himself aren't preconceived. Some devout Catholics are abstinent because of the norms they grew up with, but, honestly, those norms could have been different if different variables had been present as the culture matured. Last edited by FictionJunction; 12-21-2007 at 06:44 AM.. |
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#9 |
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OMG ceiling cat!
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If this is true, then the fate of the universe is predetermined. An ultimate fate.
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#10 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: N.C.
Posts: 459
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It's not a fun feeling when you instantly realize that what little control you have over the outcome of your existence. I have thought of the same things. (On a much more shallow level mind you,)
I don't like dwelling on these thoughts because I realized shortly before that our existence isn't completely meaningless and our job in life is simply to live, reproduce, and enjoy every last moment while we still can. On a slight tangent, every event in animate history is caused by the degree of intensity the need to feel happy, reproduce, and survive becomes. Lower creatures don't necessarily have the luxury of enjoying life, and survival of the species until the evolve to where they can enjoy life becomes more important. That's all i have to say for now, i hate reading page long replies.
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one hand, no mercy... ![]() [Trust me, This user is your friend.] Wait, What? Last edited by arsonistsgetallthegirls; 12-31-2007 at 07:28 PM.. Reason: Your hair, it consumes my being. |
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#11 |
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FFR Player
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If we knew how are wants exactly are, and how they change, exactly how they react, and exactly what is going to face us, then our future pre-determined choices would be known to us.
But that would be just like trying to fit all literature on a readable sheet of paper.
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YOU JUST WON THE GAME! CONGRATULATIONS! |
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#12 | |
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FFR Player
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Albert Einstein mentioned something along the lines of this, stating that the fate of everything in the universe is predetermined and now matter how much we believe we are in control, we are not.
~Tsugomaru
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#13 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 29
Posts: 148
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So basically we can't control any of our actions and whatever happens is uncontrollable.
Last edited by chemicalrabbit; 01-2-2008 at 04:58 PM.. |
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#14 |
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FFR Player
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I disagree with your thinking. Sure desire may be a result of circumstance, etc., however, your reaction is completely your choice. The initial prompting may be out of your control, but you decide what you do in response. Hypothetically speaking, you could have two people with the exact same life (raised the same, etc.), down to the last detail. Yet when put in the exact situation, each may respond differently. Nobody is "predestined" so to speak.
I'm not going to go into this, but I also disagree with the big bang theory.
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“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish... Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.” Christopher Hitchens |
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#15 |
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FFR Player
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I believe the point was that "choice" is merely an illusion caused by chemical reactions within the brain. Which it is, unless you subscribe to the whole "soul" thing.
And if you had two people who were EXACTLY the same (same makeup including brain, DNA, etc. and upbringing, to the point of being completely and totally identical), yes, they would respond the same way in any situation. Why? Because they're EXACTLY THE SAME in every conceivable way. |
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#16 | |
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FFR Player
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Our choices are not simply the product of circumstance, etc. That's my point.
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“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish... Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.” Christopher Hitchens |
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#17 |
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FFR Player
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Actually, if they were -EXACTLY- the same, then they would make the same decisions. If they didn't, then they aren't exactly the same.
Note that two people being exactly the same is more or less impossible naturally, so the whole thing is irrelevant to reality anyway. However, I believe that eventually, provided enough information about the person, psychologists will be able to tell you which sort of actions you could be predisposed to take, but nothing specific. Only general things like "You probably choose to avoid conflict than to involve yourself in it." They can already pretty much, but only through analysis of behavior rather than of the brain. I think we'll eventually learn enough about the brain to make these same conclusions without having to do behavioral analysis. This avoids the pitfall of people not accurately conveying their situations to their psychologists. Seriously though, I think that's as far as we'll be able to get in terms of "reading minds" for a long while. Last edited by Relambrien; 01-2-2008 at 08:41 PM.. |
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#18 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: N.C.
Posts: 459
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Even if you change your mind at the last second, it was meant to be that way. This sort of relates back to my previous post... Edit: For instance, even if you desire one candy but choose the other on a whim, your desire to second-guess yourself reigned dominant. Edit 2: actually, it's very difficult to determine the desire that controls your without knowing the circumstances, but just try to understand my point. Everyone is controlled by wants, needs, ect, and it's our genetics that make us this way.
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one hand, no mercy... ![]() [Trust me, This user is your friend.] Wait, What? Last edited by arsonistsgetallthegirls; 01-2-2008 at 09:02 PM.. |
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#19 | |
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FFR Player
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Now I'm sure this' where my argument will end, as most of you (if not all) believe that choice is merely an illusion. You do not believe in an all-powerfull Creator.
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“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish... Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.” Christopher Hitchens |
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FFR Player
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Last edited by Tokzic: Today at 11:59 PM. Reason: wait what |
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