Old 12-20-2007, 12:21 AM   #1
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Default My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I'm kind of hesitant to write this topic for two reasons. One - it's just a bunch of musing that hit me out of nowhere and made me think for an hour, and due to said musing being about completely abstract ideas, none of my thoughts are very coherant. This is probably going to turn into a Coberst topic. Two - whenever I muse about anything at all, I find out that some philosopher has already thought of everything that I've thought. For example, I came up with chaos theory by myself without knowing what it was until I summarised my thoughts to a forum, making the entire thought process a huge waste of time. So let's see if anyone's thought this up yet.

It occurred to me that the phrase "in the universe" bugged me a lot. The universe is everything, not merely the borders of the space which encompasses everything. People talk about it like it's a box, but the nature of it puts it beyond that line of thinking.

And yet whenever someone makes a comment about how small they feel when they look at the stars, the phrase "in the universe" pops up. What it should be is "of the universe", not "in".

Which got me to thinking - that's a very different perspective. It's so easy to forget that you're made of matter just like anything else. It's also rather interesting to consider that a part of the universe is you. We have direct control over the ultimate fate of our own personal pile of atoms for a handful of decades.

But isn't the control a farce?

Consider - everyhing we do is based on what we want to do. However, we control none of our wants. All of our desires are based on instincts, genes, and situation. We don't control any of these things. So when we have a menu put in front of us, making a choice is simply succumbing to whatever combination of instincts, genes, and situation is applicable. Knowing this and picking something besides what you want on purpose is succumbing to a more powerful want given the current situation. Everything that we want is beyond our control.

Doesn't that mean that the universe's ultimate fate has been set since the beginning of time? After all, chance is an illusion too by the same lines. Once the laws are set for existence, everything that happens - from beginning to end (if such things exist) - is inevitable.

So from this, the sense of self, the sense of living, is an illusion. The entire experience is based on a pile of situational circumstances that are beyond anybody's control. You get pulled in and have your hard-coded by the wants of your parents. You begin experiencing the situations that shape your soft-set wants. And then you die, having accomplished nothing but act based on the programming you've been hand-fed from fate.

But to think that we're matter, on top of it all. It's so surreal to think that if you watch a bunch of rocks long enough, some of the rocks will suddenly gain the perception that they are separate from all the other matter in the oven (or do they have this already?). Then they start feeling good and bad based on what happens between the rocks. Then they stop having the perception that they are separate, and go back to being normal rocks that don't think anything (or do they?).

Pointless speculation time. Isn't it odd that everything that we know was created by one happening? If we were all created from the same Bang, then are we all linked? Are we all somehow conscious of one another on an atomic scale? When we die, do our atoms regain the true consciousness, the consciousness of all existence?

I guess what I'm getting at here is that the question "What is the meaning of life?" isn't broad enough. The true question is: "Why does anything at all exist?"
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

To support your idea, one could assume that life, or shall we say existance, is a huge chain reaction. You drop one ball on a gigantic floor filled with mouse traps that each have a ball attached to them. Once a trap is activated, it throws a ball which activates another one - randomly (let's assume randomness is plausible in this context) - and so forth. The chain reaction can be different each time, as not all the traps would be activated and not necessarely in the same order. The result will be different as well: The final trap activated can vary, the number of traps activated as well. But in the end, what has to be done was done. There is no more movement and life is complete.

I'm not sure if this can help clarify your model, but this is what I thought of when I read your post.

Now for the question: Why? Does there have to be a "why"? I don't think that as a human being it's possible to fully understand those questions simply because our mind are not able to think this far. It's like trying to run a marathon for 40 days. It's practically impossible. I know this is a ****ty answer but I think in the end we all have to face it: There are few chances humans of our generation, of our time will ever understand the true origins of our world in a rational manner.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I'm not expecting an answer on the question, I was just making a point of the fact that most people are transfixed on the fact that they are alive when the true remarkable thing is that anything exists at all.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

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Originally Posted by Tokzic View Post
It occurred to me that the phrase "in the universe" bugged me a lot. The universe is everything, not merely the borders of the space which encompasses everything. People talk about it like it's a box, but the nature of it puts it beyond that line of thinking.
There might be other universes.

Quote:
Which got me to thinking - that's a very different perspective. It's so easy to forget that you're made of matter just like anything else. It's also rather interesting to consider that a part of the universe is you. We have direct control over the ultimate fate of our own personal pile of atoms for a handful of decades.
Heh, back when all Physicists were just amateurs from another discipline, Philosophers used to try and invent excuses for this. Some even used it as a counterpoint against the theory of continuity of matter.

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Consider - everyhing we do is based on what we want to do. However, we control none of our wants. All of our desires are based on instincts, genes, and situation. We don't control any of these things. So when we have a menu put in front of us, making a choice is simply succumbing to whatever combination of instincts, genes, and situation is applicable. Knowing this and picking something besides what you want on purpose is succumbing to a more powerful want given the current situation. Everything that we want is beyond our control.
This has been suggested. Why does it matter that our actions are based on certain initial conditions? The traditional response to this has been to say "ok, so you have the choice to accept x or to not accept x. That is still a choice, therefore determinism and free will (of some form) are not incompatible."

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"Doesn't that mean that the universe's ultimate fate has been set since the beginning of time? After all, chance is an illusion too by the same lines. Once the laws are set for existence, everything that happens - from beginning to end (if such things exist) - is inevitable."
Possibly, but I'm not sure non-linear systems are completely predictable.

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But to think that we're matter, on top of it all. It's so surreal to think that if you watch a bunch of rocks long enough, some of the rocks will suddenly gain the perception that they are separate from all the other matter in the oven (or do they have this already?). Then they start feeling good and bad based on what happens between the rocks. Then they stop having the perception that they are separate, and go back to being normal rocks that don't think anything (or do they?).
Look into eliminative materialism in theory of mind. Your rocks analogy obfuscates quite a bit.

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The true question is: "Why does anything at all exist?"
Why does there need to be a why? The question is how, and it's already been answered to at least some degree. If you want a why, create one for yourself. Value is subjective. If you want to know what your life is worth, the only person to ask is yourself. If you want to know why, same thing.

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Old 12-20-2007, 11:59 AM   #5
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Given that your conclusion seems to be nihilistic determinism, where nothing matters because nothing has meaning, yet nobody has any choice in their actions, I'm at a bit of a loss to understand what points of discussion you could be looking to engage in.

A few things stuck out at me though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokzic
It occurred to me that the phrase "in the universe" bugged me a lot. The universe is everything, not merely the borders of the space which encompasses everything. People talk about it like it's a box, but the nature of it puts it beyond that line of thinking.
Why? You can easily refer to something as being "in" something that is infinitely large (In fact, if it is infinitely large, stands to reason everything but it is contained within it). Consider all the real numbers between 1 and 2. There are infinitely many of them, and yet I can easily say "1.3 is in the list of all real numbers between 1 and 2" as though that list is a container, because it is. Just an infinitely large container holding an infinitely large number of things inside.

Quote:
We have direct control over the ultimate fate of our own personal pile of atoms for a handful of decades.
I'm not sure how you reconcile this with your later assertion that we actually have no control over anything, because every action we make is "controlled" by subconscious things we can't override or deny.

Quote:
Doesn't that mean that the universe's ultimate fate has been set since the beginning of time? After all, chance is an illusion too by the same lines. Once the laws are set for existence, everything that happens - from beginning to end (if such things exist) - is inevitable.
Well, for one, your use of the phrase "has been set" implies some degree of conscious action, you'll need a God for that. For another, I can see how you want to appeal to the billiard ball theory of the universe, where every cause creates one exact specific reaction which in turn creates another exact specific reaction. Theoretically with a perfect understanding of the universe, you should then be able to point out exactly what will happen in what order and when, and voila you've created determinism, but you also made reference to chaos theory, which tends to work against the idea that every reaction is predictable.

Personally, I think it would be more cogent to say that we have free will within certain guidelines (So I guess it isn't -totally- free will) The universe does seem to run according to very specific and fixed rules, most of which we're still coming to understand properly. It seems like we can actually do anything we like, as long as it follows the overall rules. I mean, I'm not fated to type this because of an infinitely long chain of cause and effect starting with the big bang, I can't see any evidence of that, but typing this is one of the valid choices that follow the rules, so I can make it. I can't, conversely decide to float 6 inches off the floor, because rules like gravitation tell me that it isn't a valid choice.

Quote:
So from this, the sense of self, the sense of living, is an illusion. The entire experience is based on a pile of situational circumstances that are beyond anybody's control. You get pulled in and have your hard-coded by the wants of your parents. You begin experiencing the situations that shape your soft-set wants. And then you die, having accomplished nothing but act based on the programming you've been hand-fed from fate.
Once again, it is -really- hard to try and prove determinism without also suggesting a being responsible for it. But I fail to see how influence equates to fate or lack of choice.

Your parents -try- to instill certain values into you, and you are free to decide to accept them or not. If we were "fated" to be "hard-coded" by the wants of our parents, why do so many children and teenagers go through rebellious phases where they thwart their parents' desires? And yet, it can't be fate that all children try to rebel, because all of them don't.

It just sounds to me like you're concluding that because actions have consequences that seem reasonable to you given the actions (As opposed to consequences that are seemingly random) that those consequences must be -required- by those choices no matter what.

One of the strongest things going against deterministic systems is that whether things are pre-determined or not, we have a -fantastically- accurate illusion of free will. So accurate, that the vast majority of people find it incredibly difficult to even comprehend -how- determinism would work, and even in religious systems with an all-powerful, all-knowing diety, with a specific and explicit divine plan for all creation, it is simply assumed that free will -must- exist.

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Pointless speculation time. Isn't it odd that everything that we know was created by one happening? If we were all created from the same Bang, then are we all linked?
Everything wasn't created from one happening. A bunch of things were created by it, which in turn turned into, created or otherwise effected change in other things. All kinds of things exist now that didn't exist in the short aftermath of the big bang (presuming that's your theory of choice) and I find it just as silly to credit the big bang as the direct creator of everything in the universe as I would to credit the first human to raises horses as directly responsible for glue.
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Old 12-20-2007, 02:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

It's completely feasible that humans (as well as other life forms) are all governed by an infinite set of what you could describe as self-sustaining equations, but it would seem that the concept of free will transcends a purely objective realm, and if it does not indeed exist outside the bounds of determinism, than it at least exists in its own sense, and must therefore be an intrinsic part of the so-called universal equation.

Yes, every action in the universe changes it in a way such that every other action thereafter will be changed (with degree varying directly with time in between the cause and effect), essentially causing a version of what we know as the butterfly effect, but in the case of humans and such, those actions are the direct result of free will.

With respect to the equation, then, free will is a value that is both a given and a product, and the equation cannot exist before those values do. Yes, in a sense, I am following the proposed "predetermined" path with every action I take, but it is the choices that I make that in turn determine what that path is, not vice versa.

Free will resides within its own closed system, which is that of the perception of its immediate possessor, but the affectation of it extends back to anything outside of it (e.g., the rest of the universe), which is what molds the future. The perception of it is based on the action and the actual being, not on a consideration of the scientific hardwiring that is responsible for it.

In my opinion, for reasons devonin has previously shed light on, nihilistic determinism cannot be completely disproved, per se, but it conversely cannot be proven. That being said, there really isn't much to debate on.
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Old 12-20-2007, 03:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

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Your parents -try- to instill certain values into you, and you are free to decide to accept them or not. If we were "fated" to be "hard-coded" by the wants of our parents, why do so many children and teenagers go through rebellious phases where they thwart their parents' desires? And yet, it can't be fate that all children try to rebel, because all of them don't.
Sorry, I phrased that badly. What I meant to say was that your parents want to have sex or want to have a child, triggering your existence. I'm arguing here that wants are beyond our control due to being subject to iron laws of matter.
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Old 12-21-2007, 06:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I consider instincts and genes to simply add on to the empty canvas we call 'personality' that we slowly add to as we grow up and have new experiences.

Surely, it is our instinct to reproduce, I won't disagree. But consider the guy who, despite his sexual desires, chooses to remain abstinent. Think of the couple who does not want to have a child. This is where your third aspect comes into play: situation.

The scenario one may be in may or may not be in one's control, and it usually isn't. However, it was in someone else's, and it was this person's choice to create it or add on to it. Choice is not an automated response to one's circumstances, as those circumstances aren't preconceived reactions to our instincts and choices. One could analyze the outcome of any choice one makes but nobody but the decision maker could know which branch he'd take.

A starving man hungers not because he wants food but because it is his instinct to need food. The desire is a totally different thing. The fasting man will hunger but he chooses not to for culture's sake or reason X. The circumstances he may find himself aren't preconceived. Some devout Catholics are abstinent because of the norms they grew up with, but, honestly, those norms could have been different if different variables had been present as the culture matured.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

If this is true, then the fate of the universe is predetermined. An ultimate fate.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

It's not a fun feeling when you instantly realize that what little control you have over the outcome of your existence. I have thought of the same things. (On a much more shallow level mind you,)

I don't like dwelling on these thoughts because I realized shortly before that our existence isn't completely meaningless and our job in life is simply to live, reproduce, and enjoy every last moment while we still can.

On a slight tangent, every event in animate history is caused by the degree of intensity the need to feel happy, reproduce, and survive becomes. Lower creatures don't necessarily have the luxury of enjoying life, and survival of the species until the evolve to where they can enjoy life becomes more important.

That's all i have to say for now, i hate reading page long replies.
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Old 01-1-2008, 10:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

If we knew how are wants exactly are, and how they change, exactly how they react, and exactly what is going to face us, then our future pre-determined choices would be known to us.

But that would be just like trying to fit all literature on a readable sheet of paper.
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Old 01-2-2008, 03:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Albert Einstein mentioned something along the lines of this, stating that the fate of everything in the universe is predetermined and now matter how much we believe we are in control, we are not.

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Old 01-2-2008, 04:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

So basically we can't control any of our actions and whatever happens is uncontrollable.

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Old 01-2-2008, 05:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I disagree with your thinking. Sure desire may be a result of circumstance, etc., however, your reaction is completely your choice. The initial prompting may be out of your control, but you decide what you do in response. Hypothetically speaking, you could have two people with the exact same life (raised the same, etc.), down to the last detail. Yet when put in the exact situation, each may respond differently. Nobody is "predestined" so to speak.

I'm not going to go into this, but I also disagree with the big bang theory.
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Old 01-2-2008, 05:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I believe the point was that "choice" is merely an illusion caused by chemical reactions within the brain. Which it is, unless you subscribe to the whole "soul" thing.

And if you had two people who were EXACTLY the same (same makeup including brain, DNA, etc. and upbringing, to the point of being completely and totally identical), yes, they would respond the same way in any situation. Why? Because they're EXACTLY THE SAME in every conceivable way.
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Old 01-2-2008, 05:58 PM   #16
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And if you had two people who were EXACTLY the same (same makeup including brain, DNA, etc. and upbringing, to the point of being completely and totally identical), yes, they would respond the same way in any situation. Why? Because they're EXACTLY THE SAME in every conceivable way.
This' where you're incorrect. One's decisions IS NOT predetermined. It's called choice.

Our choices are not simply the product of circumstance, etc.

That's my point.
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Old 01-2-2008, 08:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Actually, if they were -EXACTLY- the same, then they would make the same decisions. If they didn't, then they aren't exactly the same.

Note that two people being exactly the same is more or less impossible naturally, so the whole thing is irrelevant to reality anyway. However, I believe that eventually, provided enough information about the person, psychologists will be able to tell you which sort of actions you could be predisposed to take, but nothing specific. Only general things like "You probably choose to avoid conflict than to involve yourself in it." They can already pretty much, but only through analysis of behavior rather than of the brain. I think we'll eventually learn enough about the brain to make these same conclusions without having to do behavioral analysis. This avoids the pitfall of people not accurately conveying their situations to their psychologists.

Seriously though, I think that's as far as we'll be able to get in terms of "reading minds" for a long while.

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Old 01-2-2008, 08:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

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This' where you're incorrect. One's decisions IS NOT predetermined. It's called choice.

Our choices are not simply the product of circumstance, etc.

That's my point.
Unless you tie a sort of non-religious predestination into the whole ordeal, then whatever choice you make will be predetermined based on your desires.

Even if you change your mind at the last second, it was meant to be that way.
This sort of relates back to my previous post...

Edit: For instance, even if you desire one candy but choose the other on a whim, your desire to second-guess yourself reigned dominant.
Edit 2: actually, it's very difficult to determine the desire that controls your without knowing the circumstances, but just try to understand my point. Everyone is controlled by wants, needs, ect, and it's our genetics that make us this way.
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Old 01-3-2008, 07:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

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Actually, if they were -EXACTLY- the same, then they would make the same decisions. If they didn't, then they aren't exactly the same.

Note that two people being exactly the same is more or less impossible naturally, so the whole thing is irrelevant to reality anyway. However, I believe that eventually, provided enough information about the person, psychologists will be able to tell you which sort of actions you could be predisposed to take, but nothing specific. Only general things like "You probably choose to avoid conflict than to involve yourself in it." They can already pretty much, but only through analysis of behavior rather than of the brain. I think we'll eventually learn enough about the brain to make these same conclusions without having to do behavioral analysis. This avoids the pitfall of people not accurately conveying their situations to their psychologists.

Seriously though, I think that's as far as we'll be able to get in terms of "reading minds" for a long while.
Of course this concept cannot be applied to reality. It's just a hypothetical scenario used to illustrate a concept. Logically speaking I can completely see your point. My argument is that there's another factor that cannot just be plugged into the equation so easily. A far more profound factor, being God. He allows you to make your own choices. And those choices are not just the product of age and genetic makeup, etc. Sure they may influence your decision, but they do not control them. Your reactions are not predetermined.

Now I'm sure this' where my argument will end, as most of you (if not all) believe that choice is merely an illusion. You do not believe in an all-powerfull Creator.
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Old 01-4-2008, 02:26 PM   #20
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Age: 31
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Default Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N.T.M. View Post
Of course this concept cannot be applied to reality. It's just a hypothetical scenario used to illustrate a concept. Logically speaking I can completely see your point. My argument is that there's another factor that cannot just be plugged into the equation so easily. A far more profound factor, being God. He allows you to make your own choices. And those choices are not just the product of age and genetic makeup, etc. Sure they may influence your decision, but they do not control them. Your reactions are not predetermined.

Now I'm sure this' where my argument will end, as most of you (if not all) believe that choice is merely an illusion. You do not believe in an all-powerfull Creator.
The possibility of a God doesn't invalidate this line of thinking. It actually has very little to do with it. How does the fact that our universe was made by an omnipotent being affect choice? Assuming one exists, how does its existence magically change the circumstances of desire?
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Last edited by Tokzic: Today at 11:59 PM. Reason: wait what
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