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Old 12-5-2007, 12:32 PM   #61
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

My two cents:

Skinner seems to be pretty widely rejected these days. Also research has been done into cognitive gender, and a biological etiology has been found for transsexuality, although not yet for homosexuality.
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Old 12-5-2007, 12:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ancient_Greece
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Old 12-5-2007, 03:09 PM   #63
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
I don’t see how every text book I have read could be wrong. But I will bring in my text book tomorrow, give a full citation and type it word for word. Who knows maybe I misinterpreted it, I just don’t see how I could be that far off.
Please do that, and feel free to challenge Chrissi to back up her claims in the same way. That's the way constructive debate happens in this format. Since anyone can put forward pretty much any claim given the anonymity of the internet, it is perfectly acceptable to question someone's qualifications.

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I can’t accept some random person who says everyone in psychology is wrong about it because he or she says so.
She hasn't said everyone in psychology is wrong. She's said something along the lines of "I deny that you're getting this information from reputable sources" If you provide these sources, and she truly is a psychology/sexuality major, she should have no trouble finding the same books in her own library and comparing. Then she can respond to that, and the discussion can continue.
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Old 12-6-2007, 11:00 AM   #64
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
If you provide these sources, and she truly is a psychology/sexuality major, she should have no trouble finding the same books in her own library and comparing. Then she can respond to that, and the discussion can continue.
Good point. Ok so I couldn’t find my Zimbardo text book, but I do have my general psyc book from freshman year. This book has several modules about sexual orientation so I obviously cant type 8 modules worth of stuff here, but I found a few highlights.

In many cultures homosexual people are often mocked, outcast, or even killed.
"Facing such reactions, homosexual people often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don’t. Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or similarly incapable of becoming homosexual (Halderman, 1994, 2001). Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures (Myers 476).

This study does, however, hint at finding reported recently by other researchers-that women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000;Peplau & Garnets, 2000). This finding accords with other research on men's more "target-specific" sexual arousal. In their self-reports and measured sexual responses, heterosexual men are more aroused by female erotic stimuli, homosexual men by male erotic stimuli. Women, regardless of sexual orientation, respond to both male and female stimuli (Chivers & others, 2003)
(Myers 476-477)

Men's lesser sexual variability is apparent in many other ways as well, notes Roy Baumeister (2000). Across time, across cultures, across situations, and across differing levels of education, religiosity, and peer influence, adult women's sexual drive and interests are more flexible and varying than adult men's- a phenomenon Baumeister calls the gender difference in "erotic plasticity." Women, more than men, for example, prefer to alternate periods of high sexual activity with periods of almost none. (Myers 477)

Despite elevated rates of depression and risk of suicide attempts, most gays and lesbians suffer no psychological disorder (Sandfort & others, 2001). Most people, whether straight or gay, accept their orientation-by electing celibacy; by engaging in promiscuous sex (a choice more commonly made by gay men than by lesbian women0; or by entering into a committed, long-term love relationship (a choice more often made by lesbians than by gays) (Kulkin & others, 2000; Peplau, 1982; Remafedi, 1999; Weinberg & Williams, 1974). Mental health professionals are now more accepting of clients' sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association in 1973 dropped homosexuality from its list of "mental illnesses," as did the World Health Organization in 1993, and Japan's and China's psychiatric associations in 1995 and 2001. (Myers 477)"

Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules. Worth Publishers, New York, 2004.

Ok there it is. This just isn’t any fun though. I'm copying everything from a book, I'm not thinking at all. I hope this clears my name up a bit, but I'm tired of wasting my time on this thread.
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Old 12-6-2007, 12:54 PM   #65
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
Good point. Ok so I couldn’t find my Zimbardo text book, but I do have my general psyc book from freshman year. This book has several modules about sexual orientation so I obviously cant type 8 modules worth of stuff here, but I found a few highlights.

In many cultures homosexual people are often mocked, outcast, or even killed.
"Facing such reactions, homosexual people often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don’t. Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or similarly incapable of becoming homosexual (Halderman, 1994, 2001). [Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures (Myers 476).

This study does, however, hint at finding reported recently by other researchers-that women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000;Peplau & Garnets, 2000). This finding accords with other research on men's more "target-specific" sexual arousal. In their self-reports and measured sexual responses, heterosexual men are more aroused by female erotic stimuli, homosexual men by male erotic stimuli. Women, regardless of sexual orientation, respond to both male and female stimuli (Chivers & others, 2003)
(Myers 476-477)

Men's lesser sexual variability is apparent in many other ways as well, notes Roy Baumeister (2000). Across time, across cultures, across situations, and across differing levels of education, religiosity, and peer influence, adult women's sexual drive and interests are more flexible and varying than adult men's- a phenomenon Baumeister calls the gender difference in "erotic plasticity." Women, more than men, for example, prefer to alternate periods of high sexual activity with periods of almost none. (Myers 477)

Despite elevated rates of depression and risk of suicide attempts, most gays and lesbians suffer no psychological disorder (Sandfort & others, 2001). Most people, whether straight or gay, accept their orientation-by electing celibacy; by engaging in promiscuous sex (a choice more commonly made by gay men than by lesbian women0; or by entering into a committed, long-term love relationship (a choice more often made by lesbians than by gays) (Kulkin & others, 2000; Peplau, 1982; Remafedi, 1999; Weinberg & Williams, 1974). Mental health professionals are now more accepting of clients' sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association in 1973 dropped homosexuality from its list of "mental illnesses," as did the World Health Organization in 1993, and Japan's and China's psychiatric associations in 1995 and 2001. (Myers 477)"

Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules. Worth Publishers, New York, 2004.

Ok there it is. This just isn’t any fun though. I'm copying everything from a book, I'm not thinking at all. I hope this clears my name up a bit, but I'm tired of wasting my time on this thread.

So umm...Remind me again, are you saying that homosexuality is or Isn't a choice? Because the giant block of text you posted seems to indicate that it is not a choice, as illustrated by the lines I emboldened.
(Not trying to be an arseface, just wondering.)
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Old 12-6-2007, 04:38 PM   #66
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ronin
Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ronin
Now if you are a girl then its not far fetched. Its nearly proven by the studies that have been done so far. But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books.
In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"
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Old 12-6-2007, 10:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:



In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"
Wow, I think he just proved himself completely wrong.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale
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Old 12-7-2007, 11:46 AM   #68
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atalkingcow View Post
So umm...Remind me again, are you saying that homosexuality is or Isn't a choice?
Homosexuality is not a choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:



In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"
Well I obviously didn’t copy it all, but I guess it does kinda seem that way doesn’t it. My view is that it isn’t a choice. But everything I said was altered and mocked and I guess I might not have been very clear in the first place. Anyway my original source is gone, I think my roommate is borrowing it. By "very few are truly ambidextrous" I took it as meaning exactly that. Of course there are going to be a few exceptions to every rule. We can easily look at the definition of a human and see that all humans have two arms and two legs, but sure enough there are people with one or three arms and/or legs. That doesn’t mean they aren’t human. So ok I said there are gay people and straight people, but I suppose there can be bi people too. Well of course there are. In light of the new evidence, I can’t even argue that. If you recall my original point was that it isn’t a choice but according to every study I have read mean seem to have even less of a choice than men. That was it. I didn’t mean for anything to be looked at so closely. Yes it did say a very few people, but it also said a lot of stuff about women in there that can’t be ignored. In that general psyc book the handedness analogy is the only mention of the bisexual orientation, so I can’t really go into detail with that. The sexual orientation was only in reference to preference of male or female. Not both. That’s not to say bisexuals can’t help it either, but that book just ignores them. Zimbardo’s book completely rejects them. And I have yet to see any scientific source that puts them into the same category as homo- or hetero- sexuals.
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Old 12-7-2007, 01:59 PM   #69
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
But everything I said was altered and mocked
I'd hardly call "objected to on reasonable grounds" being altered and mocked. If you were being straw manned or attacked, such posts would have been (indeed were, when lines came near to being crossed) dealt with.

Quote:
And I have yet to see any scientific source that puts them into the same category as homo- or hetero- sexuals
According to the Kinsey Scale posted above, we're looking at 11.6% of white males aged 20-35 and 7% of single females aged 20-35 reading as "Equally heterosexual and homosexual" I'm pretty sure that puts them into a pretty significant category.
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Old 12-7-2007, 06:23 PM   #70
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

So far I'm just reading this, don't have time to comment right now, but yes, I did get angry because you seem to twist facts to try to justify whatever beliefs you hold, Dark Ronin. None of those sources you pasted come anywhere near helping your cause, in fact most of them easily disprove you, as others have pointed out so far. The conclusions you come to are based upon your prior assumptions and interpretations of what these facts mean. Basically, you can't make the conclusions that you have made from the data you've given us.

I don't know how to say this in more polite language, so I'll just say it: you're still full of bull****.

Anyway, I thought it was funny that you're using a textbook that one of my professors helped write (Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules)... I think I have it laying around here somewhere. Anyway, I'm glad that your sources add up. However, you've interpreted them very wrongly. I'll elaborate at a later date when I have more time; however, it's exam season.... :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
According to the Kinsey Scale posted above, we're looking at 11.6% of white males aged 20-35 and 7% of single females aged 20-35 reading as "Equally heterosexual and homosexual" I'm pretty sure that puts them into a pretty significant category.
Just at a brief glance: I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers. Kinsey did a lot to help the field of sexuality, but his statistics weren't exactly sound (think: gathering data from gay bars).
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Old 12-10-2007, 01:43 PM   #71
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
So far I'm just reading this, don't have time to comment right now, but yes, I did get angry because you seem to twist facts to try to justify whatever beliefs you hold, Dark Ronin.
I don’t try to twist anything, well I do sometimes its all part of being a good speaker/debater. But not in this thread so far. I honestly don’t hold any beliefs on the subject of homosexuality. Well no kind of moral background that would somehow make me biased in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
Anyway, I thought it was funny that you're using a textbook that one of my professors helped write (Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules)... I think I have it laying around here somewhere. Anyway, I'm glad that your sources add up. However, you've interpreted them very wrongly.

Well like I said that book doesn’t say anything about bisexuals, as far as I could find. If you would like the debate the male female thing I'm all for that. I think it’s an interesting idea. Guys and girls should have the same rights and stuff, sure, but we definitely aren’t the same, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
None of those sources you pasted come anywhere near helping your cause, in fact most of them easily disprove you, as others have pointed out so far. The conclusions you come to are based upon your prior assumptions and interpretations of what these facts mean. Basically, you can't make the conclusions that you have made from the data you've given us.
I know and I've been holding out for my new book so I could prove everything, and I found it. …But it doesn’t have anything to do with bisexuals either. So I decided to try to find where I found all this stuff and it was from a report someone gave in my class freshman year. So yeah... I was wrong on that point. True bisexuals exist. They aren’t very numerous as far as I can tell, but they definitely exist and it isn’t a choice either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
I don't know how to say this in more polite language, so I'll just say it: you're still full of bull****.
I love how you fit that into everything you say. It used to bug me, now its funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
Just at a brief glance: I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers. Kinsey did a lot to help the field of sexuality, but his statistics weren't exactly sound (think: gathering data from gay bars).
The numbers may not be accurate, but it proves a good point anyway. If he can get those kinds of numbers, there must me something to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
I'll elaborate at a later date when I have more time; however, it's exam season.... :P
Good luck on you exams, Mine are this week too. But tomorrow is my last day until next semester, so I have to go home and I wont be able to post anymore until I come back in the spring. I know you'll miss me. I actually enjoy this I'm learning.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:11 PM   #72
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
I know and I've been holding out for my new book so I could prove everything, and I found it. …But it doesn’t have anything to do with bisexuals either. So I decided to try to find where I found all this stuff and it was from a report someone gave in my class freshman year. So yeah... I was wrong on that point. True bisexuals exist. They aren’t very numerous as far as I can tell, but they definitely exist and it isn’t a choice either.
Glad we could educate you. ^_^
see you next spring, and try to get internet sometime in between there. Lack of FFR can really drive ya nuts. Trust me.
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Old 01-3-2008, 08:44 PM   #73
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by jecht3009046 View Post
Two words.

Genes and Environment.

Those two aspects control every aspect of ones life. Each has it's impact on every aspect of the human life.

P.S. People rarely change their sexual preference after they reach an "adult" state of mind. I don't mean 18, more like 30-ish.
Homosexuality is not a genetic disorder. Nothing more than a very confused person who may have been influenced by their environment. So I partially agree with you.
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Old 01-3-2008, 09:12 PM   #74
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Do you have any evidence for that claim, or is that just your opinion? Because if you can't provide any evidence, then we have no reason to believe you. You blatantly say that "homosexuality is not a genetic disorder," but you offer absolutely nothing supporting that idea.

I believe the general consensus is that homosexuality is the result of many factors, genes being part, prenatal and post-natal environment, and things like that. Or so it seems from the thread so far.

Also, I expect this will soon be locked, as I'm sure this has already been discussed in the thread, and nothing particularly new was added as a result of this bump.
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Old 01-3-2008, 09:14 PM   #75
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

You've got a good eye Relambrien. However, as much as their bump was not particularly useful, I'm going to leave it open for the time being, if just because I think it was either first or second in the forum awards for best CT discussion, so potentially when Tass posts the results, some more people might poke their head in and add something more constructive.
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Old 01-3-2008, 09:24 PM   #76
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relambrien View Post
Do you have any evidence for that claim, or is that just your opinion? Because if you can't provide any evidence, then we have no reason to believe you. You blatantly say that "homosexuality is not a genetic disorder," but you offer absolutely nothing supporting that idea.

I believe the general consensus is that homosexuality is the result of many factors, genes being part, prenatal and post-natal environment, and things like that. Or so it seems from the thread so far.

Also, I expect this will soon be locked, as I'm sure this has already been discussed in the thread, and nothing particularly new was added as a result of this bump.
I've read some about it, but I can't recall enough information to really support it . Sorry.

Just speculating here, but if homosexual tendencies are primarily attributed to genes, then how can people be converted (as people have been)? I mean it's ingrained in their genetic makeup.
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Old 01-3-2008, 09:30 PM   #77
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Primarily != Exclusively

There's no speculating how something can be primarily genetic but also a product of environment, and end up resulting as a product of your environment. It just follows from the basic premise.
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Old 01-4-2008, 03:02 AM   #78
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Just a note, I read only the first page of responses so sorry if I'm repeating anything that has already been discussed.

I, myself, am a homosexual. I have many homosexual friends and I have actually been "studying" similarities and differences between myself and my gay friends. And something that I've noticed is that all of my gay friends have had some sort of family problem or a very passive fatherly figure (if one at all). I know this was certainly the case with my family, and even my cousin's family (who is a lesbian).

I do not believe we are born as homosexuals. But, I do not believe that we, as people, have control over the decision to be homosexual. We have no control over the environment that we are raised in, the people who interact with us, or the family that raised us.

This is a huge part of why many homosexuals are confused and a bit frustrated with people who are bashing their lifestyle, calling it unholy or blasphemous. We, as homosexuals, do not have a choice in the matter. I would bet that if you gave someone the option of being heterosexual, people would gladly change and become "normal." Who would choose to be homosexual? Who would choose to be looked down upon and unable to physically bear children and raise a family?

And sorry if I am sounding like I am speaking for the entire gay population. I don't mean to come across that way. This is my opinion based on my experiences and the experiences of many others that I have met.

O_o
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Old 01-5-2008, 02:00 AM   #79
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckj846 View Post
Just a note, I read only the first page of responses so sorry if I'm repeating anything that has already been discussed.

I, myself, am a homosexual. I have many homosexual friends and I have actually been "studying" similarities and differences between myself and my gay friends. And something that I've noticed is that all of my gay friends have had some sort of family problem or a very passive fatherly figure (if one at all). I know this was certainly the case with my family, and even my cousin's family (who is a lesbian).

I do not believe we are born as homosexuals. But, I do not believe that we, as people, have control over the decision to be homosexual. We have no control over the environment that we are raised in, the people who interact with us, or the family that raised us.

This is a huge part of why many homosexuals are confused and a bit frustrated with people who are bashing their lifestyle, calling it unholy or blasphemous. We, as homosexuals, do not have a choice in the matter. I would bet that if you gave someone the option of being heterosexual, people would gladly change and become "normal." Who would choose to be homosexual? Who would choose to be looked down upon and unable to physically bear children and raise a family?

And sorry if I am sounding like I am speaking for the entire gay population. I don't mean to come across that way. This is my opinion based on my experiences and the experiences of many others that I have met.

O_o
I appreciate the insight, as I, myself, cannot relate. So seeing your view is beneficial for that purpose.
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“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish... Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.”

Christopher Hitchens
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Old 01-10-2008, 09:31 PM   #80
L0NEvvolf
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

i hate being gay :'( i was raped as a kid and i think it influenced me as a kid
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