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Old 11-30-2007, 09:59 AM   #41
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
You have some horrific psychology books then. I mean, anecdotal evidence is fun and all, but I personally know a number of male bisexuals. I mean, I'm empathic enough to tell when people around me are experiencing genuine romantic attraction to other people, and I've seen plenty of men and women feel that way about their own gender and the opposite gender.

I'm very curious to see how you can possibly make a statement like "I can understand you being attracted to both sexes if you're a girl, but if you're a guy then OMG psychology is wrong" Who the hell has ever published something legitimate saying that bisexuality can only occur in women?
I never claimed to understand any of it, I just took it strait from my text books. But you make a very good point. I took it as some sort of major difference in the two sexes. I assume its something hormonal, but assumptions haven’t done me much good lately. And it wasn’t an OMG reply, I'm just a little surprised that the prestigious authors of two separate psychology text books could be so sure about it, and so many average people who have little to know knowledge of psychology know for a fact it’s completely absurd. It’s just a little interesting to me. What are those guys getting paid for anyway?
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:35 AM   #42
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
I may repeat something stated earlier in the thread, I only skimmed it. If so I'll shut up. I have done a great deal of research into the topic of homosexuality. My major is pre-med so I have to know a lot about how people behave. The information was forced on me, but maybe I can help clear something up.

Homosexuality is not something you can help. There is no way anyone can help it. Many people live out there lives trying to deny that they are gay. It’s a horrible existence. People are born either gay or strait, there’s nothing anyone can do to change it. No one really knows until they reach puberty. That’s when you know. It is a 100% black and white kind of thing. Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.

I did find it a little odd that while men react exclusively to either male or female stimuli, most women can react equally to either. So perhaps it is a little more of a choice for women. I am by no means saying all women can be homosexual, it’s still genetic. The study was based on stimuli from physically touching the person. Men only reacted to the sex they were attracted to, while women had at least somewhat of a reaction to both sexes. I don’t really understand the results; I just want to share the only part of it that really struck me as odd.
May I kindly ask that you stop spewing complete and utter sexist bull**** and start actually critically thinking?

"There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes." What exactly are you trying to say? That there are proven instances of people being unable to control their feelings toward just one sex?

On what basis do you think that only women can be bisexual, and that all these women are making a choice?

I certainly didn't choose to be this way. And if I were a man I still wouldn't have chosen to be this way. It just happens. I see a girl and I like her. I see a guy and I like him. To me the matter is that people are sexy and gender is irrelevant to my attraction toward them. I like all people. And am capable of love toward all different types of people. I realize people have their preferences, but to me, to try to say I only like women or I only like men would be like trying to say that I only like white people or I only like asians or black people or something. It just doesn't work.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:57 AM   #43
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Chrissi View Post
May I kindly ask that you stop spewing complete and utter sexist bull**** and start actually critically thinking?
I don’t get why everyone is starting to hate me. I didn’t say anything sexist; I'm not "hating on gay people"; I don’t have a problem with anyone. I'm simply presenting the facts as they are in every text book I have studied. Unlike you people I am not "dissing" anyone because of who they are, and I’m not putting any ethical or moral values I have into it. Its pure straightforward, sometimes blunt information, from the world authorities on the workings of the human mind.

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"There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes." What exactly are you trying to say? That there are proven instances of people being unable to control their feelings toward just one sex?
Yes most people are attracted to a single sex. To my knowledge everyone was, but I guess this is what they mean by the saying "You can’t learn everything from a book." I always understood CT as being purely scientific, facts required. Lately its just lets yell at the guy who doesn’t agree with my personal views. Give me solid facts, don’t just say I don’t like you because this is what I think. A single individual can be an exception. I'm an exception to a lot of stuff, that doesn’t make me "weird" or anything. Its just life. You may be an exception. Find some study and get back to me. I am looking into it though. Perhaps they have found something new. But the studies have been going on for at least 2 hundred years, and I'm pretty sure people are still people. Its not like people just started being gay, there have always been gay people. They were just persecuted by strait people. Its human nature to put other people down so you can feel good about yourself.

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On what basis do you think that only women can be bisexual, and that all these women are making a choice?
It’s not only women. But my basis is 4 years of psychology and 3 different textbooks that all agree with each other. Yes it may be wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm completely against buying into what a professor or text book says without proof. I just want a solid intelligent debate. Its nothing personal.

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I certainly didn't choose to be this way. And if I were a man I still wouldn't have chosen to be this way. It just happens. I see a girl and I like her. I see a guy and I like him. To me the matter is that people are sexy and gender is irrelevant to my attraction toward them. I like all people. And am capable of love toward all different types of people. I realize people have their preferences, but to me, to try to say I only like women or I only like men would be like trying to say that I only like white people or I only like Asians or black people or something. It just doesn't work.
Point taken. That makes two people to come forward in 24 hours. I am obviously wrong on my point that bisexuals don’t exist. I don’t have another class until next week, but my psychology teacher studied under Pavlov. She graduated number one in her class at the University of Tennessee, a class of over 3000 students. I'll tell you what you guys have told me, and see if she can come up with anything. If not, I'll concede.
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Old 12-1-2007, 11:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is nothing more than the attraction to the same sex. If one has to study and asky why there is homosexuality, one should ask why there is heterosexuality.

When humans are born, all humans have nipples, this is because the body at an early age has not been designated with a sex yet because it's completely random. After a sex is chosen, the required parts are thus um...grown.

Sometimes testosterone doesn't develop as it should in a male and in result sometimes produces one with a high voice and feminine appeal (which is true for most but not all homosexuals) and vice versa for women supposed to be men and whatnot.

As far as the mind stuff goes, that can also be a factor because if you can think of something sexually appealing to you and get aroused then you have just stimulated yuorself mentally. Of course a small part of it is in the mind but for the most part, it's up to what your body wants. It could be a very blurry blend between mental and physical.
I go by what my sexual appetite prefers really. It's the only fair thing to do.
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Old 12-1-2007, 10:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
I don’t get why everyone is starting to hate me. I didn’t say anything sexist; I'm not "hating on gay people"; I don’t have a problem with anyone. I'm simply presenting the facts as they are in every text book I have studied. Unlike you people I am not "dissing" anyone because of who they are, and I’m not putting any ethical or moral values I have into it. Its pure straightforward, sometimes blunt information, from the world authorities on the workings of the human mind.



Yes most people are attracted to a single sex. To my knowledge everyone was, but I guess this is what they mean by the saying "You can’t learn everything from a book." I always understood CT as being purely scientific, facts required. Lately its just lets yell at the guy who doesn’t agree with my personal views. Give me solid facts, don’t just say I don’t like you because this is what I think. A single individual can be an exception. I'm an exception to a lot of stuff, that doesn’t make me "weird" or anything. Its just life. You may be an exception. Find some study and get back to me. I am looking into it though. Perhaps they have found something new. But the studies have been going on for at least 2 hundred years, and I'm pretty sure people are still people. Its not like people just started being gay, there have always been gay people. They were just persecuted by strait people. Its human nature to put other people down so you can feel good about yourself.



It’s not only women. But my basis is 4 years of psychology and 3 different textbooks that all agree with each other. Yes it may be wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm completely against buying into what a professor or text book says without proof. I just want a solid intelligent debate. Its nothing personal.



Point taken. That makes two people to come forward in 24 hours. I am obviously wrong on my point that bisexuals don’t exist. I don’t have another class until next week, but my psychology teacher studied under Pavlov. She graduated number one in her class at the University of Tennessee, a class of over 3000 students. I'll tell you what you guys have told me, and see if she can come up with anything. If not, I'll concede.
I think she may have over reacted a little.
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Old 12-1-2007, 11:33 PM   #46
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Corbin Wells View Post
When humans are born, all humans have nipples, this is because the body at an early age has not been designated with a sex yet because it's completely random. After a sex is chosen, the required parts are thus um...grown.
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you trying to say that humans are born without a gender? Doctors can tell you the gender of your baby while you're still pregnant...
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Old 12-2-2007, 12:05 AM   #47
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

A) Sex isn't "completely" random
B) Sex isn't Gender
C) Fetuses start out female, but if male, become so quite early on
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Old 12-2-2007, 12:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Relambrien View Post
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you trying to say that humans are born without a gender? Doctors can tell you the gender of your baby while you're still pregnant...

No I mixed something up, gender is chosen while you are a fetus, that was my error.
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Old 12-2-2007, 12:57 PM   #49
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

B) Sex isn't Gender
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Old 12-2-2007, 03:14 PM   #50
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
1. Grammar
1. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
2. One category of such a set.
3. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
4. The distinguishing form or forms used.
5. The condition of being female or male; sex.
6. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

3.
1. The condition of being female or male; sex.
2. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
I'm using the dictionary definition of gender that means "sex." I am perfectly allowed to do so in the English language.

Even so, elaborate please, devonin. I'm curious as to what you mean.

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Old 12-2-2007, 06:55 PM   #51
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Corbin Wells View Post
No I mixed something up, gender is chosen while you are a fetus, that was my error.
As devonin is trying to subtly point out, you are indeed wrong. We are born without gender. Gender is imposed upon us by society. We are usually born with a SEX. Not a gender. Gender is most definitely not chosen as a fetus.

I think what you were trying to say was that, until a certain stage of development, female and male fetuses are identical except for the sex chromosome. We develop all the same beginning parts, and then the chromosome kicks in and (in ideal situations) starts signalling the releases of hormones, which influence our development from that point forward.

But we do all indeed start out more resembling females than males. However, we don't really have a sex until those chromosomes kick in and start signalling hormone production.

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I'm simply presenting the facts as they are in every text book I have studied.
Oh and I think you're spewing bull****, because I'm a psychology major and sexuality minor, and what you're saying is not in any reputable textbook. You're just spouting things off trying to sound smart like you actually read this crap. You didn't. This is bull**** you came up with and are trying to pass off as fact. There is no authority who says that sexuality is binary. And if there is, you'd better show me right now, because they don't deserve the degree they have. And I will probably take it up with them. Because this is absolute falsehood and bull****.

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Unlike you people I am not "dissing" anyone because of who they are, and I’m not putting any ethical or moral values I have into it.
I am not putting ethics or morality into any of this. You're simply wrong and lying in order to sound smart. You can't even spell the word "straight".
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Old 12-2-2007, 07:41 PM   #52
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relambrien
I'm using the dictionary definition of gender that means "sex." I am perfectly allowed to do so in the English language.
Even so, elaborate please, devonin. I'm curious as to what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissi
As devonin is trying to subtly point out, you are indeed wrong. We are born without gender. Gender is imposed upon us by society. We are usually born with a SEX. Not a gender. Gender is most definitely not chosen as a fetus.
The elaboration is easy:

Sex: Biological
Gender: Social

Your sex is simply a term applied to you based solely on your biological chromasomal characteristics. XY? Your sex is male. XX? Your sex is female. Perhaps Chrissi can elaborate for me if there are specific terms for XXY and XYY and the other variations? Sex is pretty consistant everywhere on the planet. Since the term is biological, it is basically universally applied the same way to everyone.

Your gender conversely is more of a set of sociological expectations tied to your sex, and absolutely can vary depending on where you live. In North America, traditionally the female gender role was one of submissive caretaking. Nurses are a female job and Doctors are a male job, blue is a male colour and pink is a female colour, Any behavior you are expected to exhibit, any quality you are expected to have is a quality of gender in your society.
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Old 12-2-2007, 08:04 PM   #53
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

XYY, I know is Meta-male. They have high testosterone and studies show that most end up in jail for overly aggressive behavior.

I forget the biological name for XXY, but it is a male that is usually tall and lanky, with other female-like characteristics. I don't think either has scientific proof that lead to homo/heterosexuality.

Also devonin, 2400 posts, join date 2004! Spooky!

Last edited by jecht3009046; 12-2-2007 at 08:04 PM.. Reason: ghey sp.
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Old 12-2-2007, 08:07 PM   #54
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Perhaps Chrissi can elaborate for me if there are specific terms for XXY and XYY and the other variations?
XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome and XYY is just a random disorder in men. Most men who have XYY don't even know it. And we can't really tell how common it is because it doesn't really present any symptoms. You (if you're male) could have it and not know.

However, Klinefelter's is kinda bad. It leads to a whole bunch of problems. There are a whole spectrun of sex chromosome disorders which are just called.... sex chromosome disorders. There's everything from X to XXYY to XXXX.

There are also XY women who just have a disorder that inhibits the Y chromosome's action so they grow up female.... and then most of them realize they are actually XY at puberty when they don't get a period, or when they try to have children and find out they aren't fertile.
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Old 12-3-2007, 02:49 PM   #55
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

I usually like debating this, but the atmosphere on this site is touchy. Every day I'll be in multiplayer or video chat, usually multiplayer, and someone will call someone a ****** or say that they or their opinion is gay, and if I ask them politely not to act like that, then all of a sudden I must be a homosexual.

It's total bull****. I had to deal with a friend shooting themselves in the head because he was Christian and couldn't handle who he was, much less tell his family. He never told anyone at all.

Every time someone calls something gay or uses innuendo as an insult, I have to restrain myself from attacking them, or at least yelling at them. Anyone who thinks people would willingly choose to be attacked and persecuted for most of their lives is insane. It is not a choice. I never choose to like women.

And in court, the gay defense is often used. When some people claim they were attracted to a person only to find out they were really male, and somehow that makes it okay to kill or harm them.

Of course, if a homosexual kills someone in self-defense or who had been tormenting them, it's a different story.

Pisses me off to no end.
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Old 12-3-2007, 04:10 PM   #56
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Quote:
Every day I'll be in multiplayer or video chat, usually multiplayer, and someone will call someone a ****** or say that they or their opinion is gay, and if I ask them politely not to act like that, then all of a sudden I must be a homosexual.
Well its a good thing that Critical Thinking is neither multiplayer nor the video chat.
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Old 12-4-2007, 11:09 AM   #57
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Oh and I think you're spewing bull****, because I'm a psychology major and sexuality minor, and what you're saying is not in any reputable textbook. You're just spouting things off trying to sound smart like you actually read this crap. You didn't. This is bull**** you came up with and are trying to pass off as fact. There is no authority who says that sexuality is binary. And if there is, you'd better show me right now, because they don't deserve the degree they have. And I will probably take it up with them. Because this is absolute falsehood and bull****.

I am not putting ethics or morality into any of this. You're simply wrong and lying in order to sound smart. You can't even spell the word "straight".
Wow you have serious problems. What’s up with you I mean seriously? I got that out of my text book so you’re obviously the one who’s BSing everything. Do you just have no life or what? If you notice I spelled straight in the world straightforward the other strait is actually a word, it’s just the stupid auto correct on this computer. I hate these things. But back to my point you didn’t even call me on the one big psychology mistake I made. Any real psychology major would know that my teacher couldn’t have studied under Pavlov. She studied under Skinner... I shouldn’t point this out since no one caught it, but if you even had a general psyc class you should know who Pavlov is. I have taken 2 honors psychology classes in college and scored higher than anyone has before me. My teacher did study directly under Skinner, so she was taught by arguably the best psychologists around. Of course as we all should know since you've taken so many psychology classes is that psychology is by no means an exact science. It’s still very young and we’re learning about it. There’s no reason anyone with any real knowledge of psychology would get so worked up over it. Oh and my last psychology book was written by Zimbardo. I'm sure you know who he is.
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Old 12-4-2007, 11:31 AM   #58
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ronin View Post
Wow you have serious problems. What’s up with you I mean seriously? I got that out of my text book so you’re obviously the one who’s BSing everything. Do you just have no life or what? If you notice I spelled straight in the world straightforward the other strait is actually a word, it’s just the stupid auto correct on this computer. I hate these things. But back to my point you didn’t even call me on the one big psychology mistake I made. Any real psychology major would know that my teacher couldn’t have studied under Pavlov. She studied under Skinner... I shouldn’t point this out since no one caught it, but if you even had a general psyc class you should know who Pavlov is. I have taken 2 honors psychology classes in college and scored higher than anyone has before me. My teacher did study directly under Skinner, so she was taught by arguably the best psychologists around. Of course as we all should know since you've taken so many psychology classes is that psychology is by no means an exact science. It’s still very young and we’re learning about it. There’s no reason anyone with any real knowledge of psychology would get so worked up over it. Oh and my last psychology book was written by Zimbardo. I'm sure you know who he is.

I caught your Pavlov mistake. I figured you were just lying to boost your argument. Are you saying you lied in an attempt to prove something? If so, it doesn't help your argument at all.
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St1cky only proves that he has no life and that his parents are alcoholics. They probably abused him with rubber duckies when he was a baby. Why else would you exploit scores on FFR?
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Old 12-4-2007, 11:48 AM   #59
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

Okay...That's quite enough of that.

Dark Ronin: Chrissi has proven her credentials more than adaquately over the course of her time posting on this forum. I know people at the University of Waterloo entirely independant of this forum who could easily compare for you Chrissi's knowledge of the psychology department of that University with the reality of their psychology department if you seriously need that to happen. She's called your credentials into question, and your response was to flip out, instead of rationally respond. Saying "Ahaha, I tricked you and you didn't call me on it" doesn't mean you tricked her, it means she had the decency to not call you a liar to your face in public. She simply called your textbook evidence into question. (notice that attacking what you say instead of you is logically more sound) If you have such insurmountable proof in "several" of your textbooks, post some of the text, let us know exactly which books you're consulting.

Chrissi: Seriously...there are so many better ways to try and prove your point than the way you went about doing so. You guys were both right on the borderline of sufficient personal attacks to just close this thread entirely, and now you've both pretty much taken a step over that line. This was a perfectly reasonable and interesting discussion. If Dark Ronin is so misguided in his claims, demonstrate where he's wrong, post some text (with a citation) from some of your books that state contrary to what he does.

I hate to close a good thread just because some people are being too overzealous in claiming they're right, instead of simply -showing- that they are right.
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Old 12-5-2007, 12:00 PM   #60
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Default Re: Homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Okay...That's quite enough of that.

Dark Ronin: Chrissi has proven her credentials more than adaquately over the course of her time posting on this forum. I know people at the University of Waterloo entirely independant of this forum who could easily compare for you Chrissi's knowledge of the psychology department of that University with the reality of their psychology department if you seriously need that to happen. She's called your credentials into question, and your response was to flip out, instead of rationally respond. Saying "Ahaha, I tricked you and you didn't call me on it" doesn't mean you tricked her, it means she had the decency to not call you a liar to your face in public. She simply called your textbook evidence into question. (notice that attacking what you say instead of you is logically more sound) If you have such insurmountable proof in "several" of your textbooks, post some of the text, let us know exactly which books you're consulting.

Chrissi: Seriously...there are so many better ways to try and prove your point than the way you went about doing so. You guys were both right on the borderline of sufficient personal attacks to just close this thread entirely, and now you've both pretty much taken a step over that line. This was a perfectly reasonable and interesting discussion. If Dark Ronin is so misguided in his claims, demonstrate where he's wrong, post some text (with a citation) from some of your books that state contrary to what he does.

I hate to close a good thread just because some people are being too overzealous in claiming they're right, instead of simply -showing- that they are right.
It wasn’t that I tricked her. I really did make a mistake. I thought my teacher had studied under Pavlov, I got the names mixed up it was actually Skinner. And yeah I did flip out, but I’m trying to present facts and she is just overreacting. I want a good solid debate; she just wants to yell at people. I don’t see how every text book I have read could be wrong. But I will bring in my text book tomorrow, give a full citation and type it word for word. Who knows maybe I misinterpreted it, I just don’t see how I could be that far off. I don’t try to sound smart on here this is how I talk. I can’t accept some random person who says everyone in psychology is wrong about it because he or she says so.
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