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Old 02-22-2004, 12:42 AM   #21
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the above was by me....

oy, it keeps logging me out when I write these long posts... anybody know what's up with that? How do I fix it? (besides writing shorter posts/typing faster)
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Old 02-22-2004, 10:24 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Arch0wl
I'm Agnostic because all religion boils down to is what happens to you when you die, and with so many religions, how am I supposed to get a grasp of one to follow? My parents never FORCED their beliefs on me, so my whole life I've been able to believe what I want to believe. For all I know, every religion could be wrong and it could just be weird little tidbits from other religions, or, assuming Christianity was right, God could just kick us in the nuts and say "SORRY THEY MESSED UP ON ONE OF THE COMMANDMENTS WHEN THEY PRINTED THE BIBLE GG NO RE KTHX". And assuming a hell actually exists... no one deserves hell. No one. Hell, not even Hitler (CHILL BEFORE YOUR FIRES OF A THOUSAND SUNS HAVE BEEN ANGERED). Eternity is uncomprehensable and eternal pain and suffering is something that should not be put upon any being whatsoever. If you're going to be in hell for.. well, eternity, then why should you be punished infinity fold for something that's a tiny speck of the amount you'd spend there?
Then look into Mormonism. :P

"Hell" as people define it, the eternal suffering of someone after this life, is reserved for those that followed Satan out of heaven and those who witnessed the literal acts of God and denied Him still (say, Judas). We believe there are 3 degrees of heaven, and even the lowest of these, were man to comprehend it, they'd kill themselves right then to go there.

@ Peregrine and Jewpin: I'm not saying that they should endorse religion. That's not what I mean. I'm saying that the government is taking a stand AGAINST it, as in, they are not remaining neutral. If a kid is caught mumbling a prayer during the "thirty seconds of silence" after the Pledge, WHAMMO! SUSPENSION! That's bullcrap it my eyes. If the kid is bowing his head and not saying anything outloud, it's not a classroom disruption. No more than the tired kid that lays his head down on the desk is.

That's what I meant by "forcing" atheist beliefs. Just like they claim Christian people "force" that there is a God on them, they force their idea that there is no God on us.

Oh, and the concept of evolution is not atheist. Darwin was a devout Christian man himself. The idea that man came from apes, however, was not his own. People read that into his concept of "survival of the fittest" and claimed it was he that said so.

Also, while we're going over religion... I dunno why, but I thought I'd point out my latest entry in my webjournal. (Link in sig.) Go take a look if you want.
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Old 02-23-2004, 12:12 AM   #23
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@ Peregrine and Jewpin: I'm not saying that they should endorse religion. That's not what I mean. I'm saying that the government is taking a stand AGAINST it, as in, they are not remaining neutral. If a kid is caught mumbling a prayer during the "thirty seconds of silence" after the Pledge, WHAMMO! SUSPENSION! That's bullcrap it my eyes. If the kid is bowing his head and not saying anything outloud, it's not a classroom disruption. No more than the tired kid that lays his head down on the desk is.
That IS remaining neutral, as I said, that's the schools trying to remain neutral with religion. You can't practice on school grounds. It's not saying you can't practice AT ALL (which would be forcing atheist beliefs) it's just saying you can't practice at this location. It is in no way telling you what you can or cannot think, but only what you can and cannot do at that time.

There's obviously a conflict of interest between the politicians who make these laws establishing the pledge and the minute (or 30 seconds in your case, our school had a minute) or silence, and the school administrators who have to implement these contradictory policies.
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Old 02-23-2004, 12:38 AM   #24
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Sigh.... Where to start.... ok.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so without a doubt I believe... no, I know that there is no hell. Death is the absence of life, which constitutes nothingness. There is no punishment worse than death. In revelation, the "lake of fire" is spoken about. If you read further, you see that is actually says "this means/is/signifies (I can't remember the exact word used) the second death." This refers to the second dying after the ressurection and judgement of those who did not make it.

There are two rewards for those who make are righteous (sp?). There are the righteous people and the exemplary who are concidered the annointed ones. The annointed will replace the 144 thousand angels that were lost and they will help god in heaven. The gathering of the annointed bagan at the beginning of the last days, which we have marked as 1914. The righteous will inhabit the earthly paradise. God said to Adam and Eve to 'inhabit the earth and be fruitful,' and that commandment has not deteriorated. It took a 'small' setback, but it is still the goal god has for mankind.



As for religion in school, I know that the schools are not allowed to endorse religous "traditions" or "rituals". That also means that they can can not put things on you that are against your religion, such as movies you find offensive or assemblies that you disagree with. I do not believe in christmas, and so when the christmans assembly comes around, I abstain from going in that building, and there is nothing that they can do and there is no action that they can take against me. Any attempt is unconstitutional. As long as your prayer does not break a school rule, you are fine. A silent prayer kept fairly small breaks no school rule I know of. And as I said before, any attempt to punish you for that is unconstitutional. If you take that up to the main office and lay that in front of them and prove that you broke no rule, they have to drop it.

Intolerance is everywhere, whether they are athesist or not; christian or not; there are always people who are intolerant. They have a church life and a non-church life. On constitutes a bible. the other is anywhere from intolerance to a gun.
Example 1: Northern Ireland - Catholics versus Protestants.
Example 2: Jeruselem - Israelis versus Palistinians. (Considered one of the most holy places in both of those religions; so holy they stain it in blood; some of it is innocent blood.)



Well, the world isn't getting any better.
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Old 02-23-2004, 01:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
@ Peregrine and Jewpin: I'm not saying that they should endorse religion. That's not what I mean. I'm saying that the government is taking a stand AGAINST it, as in, they are not remaining neutral. If a kid is caught mumbling a prayer during the "thirty seconds of silence" after the Pledge, WHAMMO! SUSPENSION! That's bullcrap it my eyes. If the kid is bowing his head and not saying anything outloud, it's not a classroom disruption. No more than the tired kid that lays his head down on the desk is.
I think that if a kid wants to pray at school, they should be allowed. I have never heard of someone being suspended because of praying. And if it did happen, then that is going against the constitution.

And I know Darwin was a hardcore Jesus Fan. I mean, he was on the path to becoming a Priest, or Minister,or whatever they are called. But Darwin is sort of the symbol of Atheism (well, the Darwin Fish is at least.)

But if you want my honest opinion (though no one asked for it) it is that Religion will led to the end of the Humankind. (save Eastern, and other Peaceful religions).
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:22 AM   #26
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The world is taking a stonger stance against religion because of the overwhelming freedoms that this country is giving us. People wan't to bitch, people want complain, it's human nature, it will always be. Prayer should be allowed wherever the INDIVIDUAL wants to facilitate it to his or herself, however forcing your beliefs on another is unconsititutional and is wrong. People should be allowed to pray in school, however they cannot use school as a mechanism to further their own religions, and the school itself cannot endorse religious groups, unless their activities take place before or after school hours, but only then.
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Old 02-23-2004, 09:55 AM   #27
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God help you people, lol.
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Old 02-23-2004, 11:36 AM   #28
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I found the news about Sony in Laharl's journal more interesting than what he said about religion.

I think I'm going to hell.



Haha, but in all seriousness : I'm not exactly a religious person... there could or there could not be a God, I don't know. However, I believe in letting people believe what they want to believe and do want they want to do. If you're religious, I'm not going to launch into a diatribe about how "religion is wrong", because, honestly, I don't know myself. I don't believe there's a hell... in both of the scenarios (God or no God), there is either no hell because : God is supposed to love us eternally, and I don't think he would let us suffer for all eternity (what Arch said), or because, if there's no God, why would there be a hell? Logically we can assume that there will not be an "opposite" of something that doesn't exist. Anyway, just my two cents.

Oh yeah, and Sony sucks.
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:53 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jewpinthethird
But if you want my honest opinion (though no one asked for it) it is that Religion will led to the end of the Humankind. (save Eastern, and other Peaceful religions).
That's just ignorance speaking. There were just as many civil wars throughout the history of China and Japan, two very Buddhist countries, that were even more bloody than the wars in Europe. We just happen to have a lot more history of what happened in Europe.

The problem is the people BEHIND the religions, as I've said umpteenmillion times. Christianity IS a peaceful religion. But a lot of people in it tend to feel you are supposed to hate those that sin, which is just stupid. It says IN THE BIBLE to "love thy neighbor." Actually, I think the exact words are "love thy neighbor as thee love thyself."

In Matthew, there are some verses that basically say love those that oppress and oppose you, because even sinners and people without character can love those that care for them.
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Old 02-26-2004, 04:45 PM   #30
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i am a strong christain and blah blah all of that. after raeding some of these posts, i have realized that i can be quite closed-minded when discussing my beliefs with someone of another religion/belief. it's true that hardcore christains truly are some of the best people on earth. before i started at my church, i had no real "friends", but these people have stuck with me, even when i have had doubts about what they and myself believed. and i feel that if i don't have the right to preach about my God in school, then they shouldn't be allowed to teach me the big bang theory and the theory of evolultion, because these are things that i don't believe in. thanks everybody for posting..some of you have opened my eyes about some things..i am not the only person on earth with beliefs..i am just hard-headed. peace be with you all ~~Samantha~~

abstinence will keep you safe!
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Old 02-26-2004, 04:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
i have realized that i can be quite closed-minded when discussing my beliefs with someone of another religion/belief. it's true that hardcore christains truly are some of the best people on earth.
What the HELL does your first sentence have to do with your second one? You just basically said "Yeah, I learned we're closed minded, but don't really give a damn, we're just gonna keep doin it."

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abstinence will keep you safe!
No it won't. Abstinence will keep you antisocial.
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Old 02-27-2004, 04:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
i have realized that i can be quite closed-minded when discussing my beliefs with someone of another religion/belief. it's true that hardcore christains truly are some of the best people on earth.
What the HELL does your first sentence have to do with your second one? You just basically said "Yeah, I learned we're closed minded, but don't really give a damn, we're just gonna keep doin it."
And? You have a problem with that? You're close minded, yourself, you know. Don't be stupid and claim otherwise. If you were "open-minded", then the possibility of your beliefs being wrong would be ever so strong in your mind.

I'm proud to say that I'm close-minded. There are things I will never do, nor ever believe are right. I'm 100% positive I'm right, and those that disagree are, well, wrong. I'm sure they feel I'm 100% wrong and them totally right, so it's a fun cycle.
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abstinence will keep you safe!
No it won't. Abstinence will keep you antisocial.
Abstinence will allow total and true joy to occur in one's life. And no, it won't have a damn thing to do with your social life. I know plenty of kids that are still virgins, and are among the most active people I know socially. So don't make dumbass remarks, please.
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Old 02-27-2004, 07:17 PM   #33
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And? You have a problem with that? You're close minded, yourself, you know. Don't be stupid and claim otherwise. If you were "open-minded", then the possibility of your beliefs being wrong would be ever so strong in your mind.
I know that. I'm not a hypocrite. I am closed minded, and I don't give a damn. Though one might argue that I'm simply close minded against people who are closed minded themselves, and won't accept any other opinion. See, I'll listen to uber-religious freaks that insist God will punish me with hellfire. I won't like it, I won't believe it, I won't care about it, but I'll listen. Uber religious people are just like racists, when it comes down to it- they are convinced they are right, and won't listen to reason or anyone else.

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abstinence will keep you safe!

No it won't. Abstinence will keep you antisocial.
And I was kidding about that.
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Old 02-27-2004, 09:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909
Quote:
And? You have a problem with that? You're close minded, yourself, you know. Don't be stupid and claim otherwise. If you were "open-minded", then the possibility of your beliefs being wrong would be ever so strong in your mind.
I know that. I'm not a hypocrite. I am closed minded, and I don't give a damn. Though one might argue that I'm simply close minded against people who are closed minded themselves, and won't accept any other opinion. See, I'll listen to uber-religious freaks that insist God will punish me with hellfire. I won't like it, I won't believe it, I won't care about it, but I'll listen. Uber religious people are just like racists, when it comes down to it- they are convinced they are right, and won't listen to reason or anyone else.

Quote:
Quote:
abstinence will keep you safe!

No it won't. Abstinence will keep you antisocial.
And I was kidding about that.
If you backpeddle anymore, you'll run through the wall.
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Old 02-27-2004, 09:45 PM   #35
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If you backpeddle anymore, you'll run through the wall.
If you actually read my post and thought about the message I was trying to get across, you wouldn't have to make smartass comments.
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Old 02-27-2004, 11:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jewpinthethird
So much of my opinion of "religious" people has been tainted. But then I have so say to myself "No, these people are not 'christians'."
SO true, I consider myself a "hardcore christian" and I have never forced my beliefs on anyone. I have never told anyone that they were going to hell (cept my friends as a joke). I have told many ABOUT my beliefs, but you have to make your faith your own.

And also, please don't make uneducated remarks about a person's religion. Mine or anyone else's. I took very high offense to the remark early in the thread about "having complete faith in a book" or something like that.

1. The bible isn't A book, it consists of 66 seperate books, gathered together by the early church, and put together into one big "file cabinet."

2. Here are some facts on the bible...

Everyone in school has read the Illiad right? how many manuscripts were found for that book? 643, a HUGE number! no one ever questions the authenticity of that book, well how bout Plato? only 7 for him but not a single person questions if he wrote that. aristotle has 49, and Sophocles 193. so the illiad and sophocles seem to be leading in this one, well For The New Testament, they havefound 24,000 manuscripts. all 24,000 manuscripts were handwritten too, not by word of mouth.

How much time in between the date of writting and the earliest known manuscript? well Aristotle is at 1450 years between the writting and earliest manuscript. plato is at 1250 years, and homer is at 500 a very low number considering all the others. well the New Testament has the number of 15 years from the first writting to the earliest known manuscript.

How Accurately were the manuscripts written? oblivously the more accurate the better. well there were three books a Non-Christian scientist looked at. The Illiad, The New Testament, and the Mahabharata which is a very big religous book for Hinduism! The Illiad had a 5% distoration rate, meaning that 764 lines of the illiad were distorted or copied wrong, one every 20 lines. The Mahabhrata had a distortion rate of 10%!! which means 26,000 lines were corrupted, The New Testament, was .2% out of 20,000 lines, 40 were distorted.


WEll I hope you read this incredibly long post, cause there's good information in there
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Old 02-27-2004, 11:31 PM   #37
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Distortion doesnt have a WHOLE lot to do with complete accuracy. Obviously, if the distortion is REALLY high, it could be innacurate, but otherwise, 10% or below isnt really bad.

I forgot what exactly my point was going to be.

Oh, and register, you!
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Old 02-27-2004, 11:32 PM   #38
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good post...i especially agree with your statement abotu defacing others' religions
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Old 02-27-2004, 11:32 PM   #39
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Well, to be honest, I was expecting some thing like "sinners! you'll all be dammed to hell!" but...there was some very good information in there. That's really very interesting, I didn't know a lot of that. By the way, you should like, log in next time.
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Old 02-28-2004, 04:29 AM   #40
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You want me to try again? Fine. I wasn't making a "smartass" comment. I meant what I said. You are retreating on your feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909
I know that. I'm not a hypocrite. I am closed minded, and I don't give a damn. Though one might argue that I'm simply close minded against people who are closed minded themselves, and won't accept any other opinion. See, I'll listen to uber-religious freaks that insist God will punish me with hellfire. I won't like it, I won't believe it, I won't care about it, but I'll listen. Uber religious people are just like racists, when it comes down to it- they are convinced they are right, and won't listen to reason or anyone else.
Tch. I won't like, believe, or care about what you tell me, but sure as hell I'll listen. You claim to be on the high road here, claiming the other side are "racists", when you are no better.

You're right when you call me 'close-minded'. I honestly don't care what you have to say about this subject. You've never stayed up crying from tears of pure joy like I have. I know you haven't experienced what I have that lets me know that I am right, and it makes me sad that you refuse to give it a shot. Unfortunately, you're intelligent, so there is a part of me that will always say "That's a shame he went that route." I wish I could be indifferent. I really wish I could.

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Quote:
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abstinence will keep you safe!
No it won't. Abstinence will keep you antisocial.
And I was kidding about that.
You pick a really odd time to kid about something.
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