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Old 08-6-2007, 01:20 PM   #21
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

But that's the thing, in the Bible, he deemed that his creation was good. I don't know how you interpret that, but to me that's saying that he created it exactly the way he wanted it.

However, all I was doing was asking how he could take a statement such as that and call it figurative.
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Old 08-6-2007, 01:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle2010 View Post
But that's the thing, in the Bible, he deemed that his creation was good. I don't know how you interpret that, but to me that's saying that he created it exactly the way he wanted it.

However, all I was doing was asking how he could take a statement such as that and call it figurative.
Well, you see, if I was God that would mean I am perfect by my own definition, and seeing as how I was God, that would be true in all fashions, so even if I made something half-assed I could still deem it "good" and who would correct me, my own half-assed creation I assembled from mud, psh, not a chance.
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Old 08-6-2007, 02:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

When I say "Man, that was a good steak" I don't mean that the steak was the absolute pinnacle of perfect steak to which all steak should aspire, and which should persist unchanged for all eternity. I'm not sure God would be any different.
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Old 08-6-2007, 02:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Well, you see, if I was God that would mean I am perfect by my own definition, and seeing as how I was God, that would be true in all fashions, so even if I made something half-assed I could still deem it "good" and who would correct me, my own half-assed creation I assembled from mud, psh, not a chance.
What does that have to do with anything? I was responding to Devonin, not making a statement.

And even if I was, I was saying that when God said it was "good", I interpret that as the way he wanted it. I never said anything about correction from his own creations. I think you are confused.

@Devonin: You have a point, but the way the Bible uses the word "good" just seems to me as if on a grander scale. I don't know though, my point is purely interpretive speculation, so I don't really think it holds any grounds in an argument.
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Old 08-6-2007, 02:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

"And saw that it was good" while written in a fairly epic style, doesn't necessarily mean perfect, or even excellent. More importantly, "Object X is exactly how I wanted it to be" doesn't require that how God wanted it to be is static. If it was "X, which will in the fullness of time become Y" and that is what God wants, then it is good.
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Old 08-6-2007, 02:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

Haven't you guys ever thought that a lot of us must be getting deceived by these "ploys"? After all, Christianity has just been around for 2000 years, plus it is the biggest religion in the world. Either a lot of people are believing in some big magic man or there is actually some validitity in Creationism. ^_^

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Old 08-6-2007, 03:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by Go_Oilers_Go View Post
Haven't you guys ever thought that a lot of us must be getting deceived by these "ploys"? After all, Christianity has just been around for 2000 years, plus it is the biggest religion in the world. Either a lot of people are believing in some big magic man or there is actually some validitity in Creationism. ^_^

Jesus FTW!
I have thought of this countless times.

One thing that I can't explain is how once you "become" a Christian...it feels like there is no other way. Being a Christian I believe strongly that God did create us. And with his plan for each of us, we are just going to have to figure that out our own ways.

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Originally Posted by Relambrien View Post
Divine beings are not at all difficult for humans to comprehend. After all, there are 2.1 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, and 900 million Hindus in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_religions). I did not include Judaism because of its extreme minority. This means over 4.3 billion people, more than 2/3 of the world, believe in a divine being such as God.
As for this, many many people declare that they "are" Christians. But they seem to just say that so that, they don't practice Jesus's word. Being a Christian means following the teachings of Jesus.
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Old 08-6-2007, 03:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

You know, all threads about Christians and God are stupid.
All the anti-christian and evolutionists will be attracted to it, and flame everyone who says they believe in God.
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Old 08-6-2007, 03:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

There's already been flaming going on in this topic. Aetheists seem to be threatened by Christians on FFR. It's a sad situation. I personally try not to flame back since that goes against my morals, but sometimes I lose control.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go_Oilers_Go View Post
Haven't you guys ever thought that a lot of us must be getting deceived by these "ploys"? After all, Christianity has just been around for 2000 years, plus it is the biggest religion in the world. Either a lot of people are believing in some big magic man or there is actually some validitity in Creationism. ^_^

Jesus FTW!
Now explain the massive numbers of Muslims and Hindus
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:25 PM   #31
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by madmatt621 View Post
"...what evidence do we have that god created life? We have the bible! Who was there to observe it? God was there to observe it! So, biblical creation is science."
Circular logic. Fallacy. Invalid argument.

Kind of sickening that he'd do that to kids. I hate bloody religion people who insist on converting EVERYONE THEY MEET. People believe what they believe and trying to convince someone that your beliefs are more right than theirs is entirely arrogant. People like him need to drown.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:26 PM   #32
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go_Oilers_Go View Post
There's already been flaming going on in this topic. Aetheists seem to be threatened by Christians on FFR. It's a sad situation. I personally try not to flame back since that goes against my morals, but sometimes I lose control.
Don't confuse our defense of Evolution with an attack on your beliefs. You take it offensively because you can't argue in favor of Creationism without using the God/Faith defense. If you are trying to argue in favor of Creationism with an Atheist, you have to use another technique other that "God is all powerful, I have faith in God."

I am convinced that the Bible is fiction, God doesn't exist, and faith as the antithesis logic, and intellectual freedom. Now present your argument without mentioning any of those, and you won't be torn apart by us heathens.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

1. There are more Christians than Muslims or Hindus.
2. Muslims and Hindus could also technically be deemed Creationists because they believe in a deity and that the earth was created by this deity or deities.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:31 PM   #34
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by Go_Oilers_Go View Post
1. There are more Christians than Muslims or Hindus.
2. Muslims and Hindus could also technically be deemed Creationists because they believe in a deity and that the earth was created by this deity or deities.
well you proved us wrong didn't you

being part of the majority automatically makes you right guys

we can't fight this man's inpenetrable argument
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:33 PM   #35
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

It seems like some atheists (NOT anyone in particular), are too arrogant to try Christianity out. I used to be "atheist" and then I went to church with some of my friends and my life changed.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:39 PM   #36
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

EDIT: WOW there were a lot of posts while I was typing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go_Oilers_Go View Post
There's already been flaming going on in this topic. Aetheists seem to be threatened by Christians on FFR. It's a sad situation. I personally try not to flame back since that goes against my morals, but sometimes I lose control.
I try to stay out of arguments involving people being angry at each other (simply because I can accept everyone's beliefs, since I don't care about religion at all.), but I feel like I must respond to this.

Now as I'm going through this, keep one thing in mind: What I'm about to say does not represent my personal feelings unless otherwise noted. It is merely how I believe the atheists and evolutionists in question feel.

First off, atheists and evolutionists do not feel threatened by Christians. They are annoyed by you. Instead of questioning the world around you and developing your own opinions via observable evidence, you blindly follow what is told to you by your religious leaders, with nothing but faith to support what you are told. Instead of seeking to understand your world through logic, you instead follow a being that may or may not exist, both options just as likely as the other. You can see how this could be annoying to someone who follows the path of science, which involves gathering evidence to explain the world.

Actually, I made another post earlier that I think explained this pretty well...lemme go pull it up. (I know I'm on a self-quoting spree, but I think this applies to the situation at hand)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relambrien
Try and imagine what it's like for the hardcore evolutionists and the hardcore religious:

The evolutionists believe that they are helping you by enlightening you to the process of evolution, and by refusing it by saying that God is involved, you are denying yourself the chance to be released from your dependence on a divine being, and are voluntarily living a life of servitude to a being whose existence cannot be confirmed.

The religious believe that they are helping you by enlightening you to the process of creation, and by refusing it by saying that science properly explained it, you shall suffer eternal damnation for defiance of God. In their eyes, they're helping you reach heaven, and you are denying their help, essentially voluntarily sending yourself to Hell.
This is the essence of the argument between evolutionists and Christians. Evolutionists believe that you shouldn't be shackled to a being which may not even exist, and through your voluntary servitude to this being, you are only hurting yourself. Christians, on the other hand, believe that by refusing to accept things as God-created or the like, you are only hurting yourself by essentially sending yourself to Hell.

Each side is annoyed with the other because they refuse to be "saved" by the other side. And as I'm sure you all know, annoyance leads to flaming.

EDIT: Now to respond to posts made while I was typing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokzic
Kind of sickening that he'd do that to kids. I hate bloody religion people who insist on converting EVERYONE THEY MEET. People believe what they believe and trying to convince someone that your beliefs are more right than theirs is entirely arrogant. People like him need to drown.
Consider what it's like from the Christian's side. He believes the only path to salvation is to follow the teachings of Jesus, or else you will go to Hell. By trying to convert you, he is trying to save you from your self-inflicted damnation. If he doesn't try to convert you, he is essentially aiding you in your quest to be damned. By attempting to convert you, he believes he is helping you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfelten86
It seems like some atheists (NOT anyone in particular), are too arrogant to try Christianity out. I used to be "atheist" and then I went to church with some of my friends and my life changed.
I doubt they're "arrogant," but more like they're uncomfortable. Going and participating in an event that supports everything you deny has got to be unnerving, wouldn't you think? It would be the same if you were to go to an event where someone explains how there is no God. That has to make you more than a little bit uncomfortable.

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Old 08-6-2007, 04:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

Quote:
It seems like some atheists (NOT anyone in particular), are too arrogant to try Christianity out. I used to be "atheist" and then I went to church with some of my friends and my life changed.
I'm not atheist. I'm agnostic, which is largely different. For one, I refuse to believe that the universe spontaneously decided to start existing, and believing that is even more ridiculous than believing in a divine being in my opinion.

On the other hand, the fact that the most common religion in the US comes from a book that's a metaphor for astrology is laughable.

I don't need to "try Christianity". Going to a church and hearing some old man spew his beliefs at me isn't going to make me believe in what I am firmly against. Religion isn't something you shop for, but unfortunately, people are sheep and think that there are so many set religions and that they must belong to one. It's idiotic.

EDIT: I shouldn't say I'm "firmly against" Christianity. If people want to choose that as their belief system, retarded as I think it is, I'm not against it. It's when they get in other people's faces about it that I am against it. No one outside of your religion cares what you believe in.
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Old 08-6-2007, 04:56 PM   #38
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by Tokzic View Post
I'm not atheist. I'm agnostic, which is largely different. For one, I refuse to believe that the universe spontaneously decided to start existing, and believing that is even more ridiculous than believing in a divine being in my opinion.

On the other hand, the fact that the most common religion in the US comes from a book that's a metaphor for astrology is laughable.

I don't need to "try Christianity". Going to a church and hearing some old man spew his beliefs at me isn't going to make me believe in what I am firmly against. Religion isn't something you shop for, but unfortunately, people are sheep and think that there are so many set religions and that they must belong to one. It's idiotic.

EDIT: I shouldn't say I'm "firmly against" Christianity. If people want to choose that as their belief system, retarded as I think it is, I'm not against it. It's when they get in other people's faces about it that I am against it. No one outside of your religion cares what you believe in.
Agnosticism is a subset of atheism, specifically weak atheism:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Within negative or weak atheism, philosopher Anthony Kenny distinguishes between agnostics, who find the claim "God exists" uncertain, and theological noncognitivists, who consider all God-talk to be meaningless.
It seems that when people say "atheist" they mean "strong atheist," or someone who explicitly states "God does not exist." However, "atheism" as a whole is just an absence of belief in deities:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism. When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism.
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Old 08-6-2007, 05:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by Tokzic View Post

I don't need to "try Christianity". Going to a church and hearing some old man spew his beliefs at me isn't going to make me believe in what I am firmly against. Religion isn't something you shop for, but unfortunately, people are sheep and think that there are so many set religions and that they must belong to one. It's idiotic.
I was like this too, going to public schools all my life and hearing about evolution and such made me believe that Christianity was just a big "myth" from people passed down over many generations. I thought it was just created so that the Roman Catholic church could get money and whatever they wanted from people.

But when I started attending church voluntarily I realized that I wasn't being a "sheep" as you would call it. I wanted to go because it is showing me how to better my life. And I could either accept it or deny it.

Which brings me to the question, why shouldn't you try Christianity? If you can find a good church who won't pressure you to do stuff that you don't want to do..what is the problem? My church (and I'm hoping that most churches) don't just "spew" you their beliefs. They read scripture and interpret it.

Overall I'm not saying that you have to go to church. I am just saying that I think everyone should give it a shot, what do you have to lose?
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Old 08-6-2007, 05:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: New Creationist Ploy: Skepticism, Demanding Evidence

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Originally Posted by mfelten86 View Post
I was like this too, going to public schools all my life and hearing about evolution and such made me believe that Christianity was just a big "myth" from people passed down over many generations. I thought it was just created so that the Roman Catholic church could get money and whatever they wanted from people.

But when I started attending church voluntarily I realized that I wasn't being a "sheep" as you would call it. I wanted to go because it is showing me how to better my life. And I could either accept it or deny it.

Which brings me to the question, why shouldn't you try Christianity? If you can find a good church who won't pressure you to do stuff that you don't want to do..what is the problem? My church (and I'm hoping that most churches) don't just "spew" you their beliefs. They read scripture and interpret it.

Overall I'm not saying that you have to go to church. I am just saying that I think everyone should give it a shot, what do you have to lose?
First of all, I used to be Christian, back before I developed my own mindset.

Second of all, how does believing in a fictional identity improve your life?

What do I have to lose? That's obvious - the entire thing would be an enormous waste of time.

EDIT: Rel, that's one one philosopher believes. The actual page for agnosticism in Wikipedia comes much closer to my actual beliefs:

Quote:
Agnosticism (from the Greek "a," meaning "without," and Gnosticism or "gnosis," meaning knowledge) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, god(s), deities, or even ultimate reality—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable due to the nature of subjective experience.
Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while individual certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism.
Frankly, I realize that there is not enough evidence to fully believe in one or the other, so I'm open to almost anything and realize that I'll find the truth when I die. I believe in the possibility of a divine entity.

EDIT2: Okay that's ugly but I'm not editing out the links.
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