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Old 07-16-2007, 11:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Wow, moches. Wow.

You are clearly getting your information on Catholicism from a Jack Chick tract or something.

Seriously, you don't understand how WAY off-base you are.

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Old 07-17-2007, 01:03 AM   #22
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter View Post
Wow, moches. Wow.

You are clearly getting your information on Catholicism from a Jack Chick tract or something.

Seriously, you don't understand how WAY off-base you are.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Oops. Just checked a Catholic thing and I might be like 99% off. Sorry.

But what the heck is a Jack Chick tract?!?!?!

We've covered like everything. So I might as well delete.

(DELETE)
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:15 AM   #23
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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I believe that if there is a god, he wouldn't really care what religion you practice, as long as you yourself are a good person to others, and you don't do wicked things.

That's all hippie good and all, but many religions have practices that are very much against his word.

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Oh yeah, definitely, including catholicism.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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As an Athiest (Yeah, boo Athiests), This is one of those things that made me give up the whole idea of God, when one man, a mortal man, can be chosen by many other mortal men to be the voice of god, it can't work. He's not the "voice" of god, he's not even close, he's just the head of the fathers of the Christian church.

I believe that if there is a god, he wouldn't really care what religion you practice, as long as you yourself are a good person to others, and you don't do wicked things.

When the definition of wicked comes down to: Gay marriage, Practicing a religion other than yours, or otherwise just being different, then something is wrong with that system of religion. When, by trying to "purify" Your own faith by shunning those of another faith, then you've really lost touch with "God". God should be considered something to look at in an admiring light, and an example to all others. Not some angry man-upstairs, looking down at scowling at every decision we make that isn't completely based upon the bible.

Being a good person is much more important that having the "right" faith. Thats what I believe.
AGREE

Religion causes so much death and fighting. Just be a good person and respect other people for what they follow and forget bout it and be yourself
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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Oh yeah, definitely, including catholicism.
'Fraid not, bud. No practice of ours is counter to Scripture, and no part of scripture is counter to any practice.

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Old 07-18-2007, 11:27 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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'Fraid not, bud. No practice of ours is counter to Scripture, and no part of scripture is counter to any practice.

--Guido

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Ok, where do I start...

How about Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation.

Jesus still had his fleshly body when offering the bread. This body, whole and entire, was to be offered as a perfect, unblemished sacrifice for sins the next afternoon (of the same day of the Hebrew calendar, Nisan 14). He also retained all his blood for that perfect sacrifice. “He poured out his soul [which is in the blood] to the very death.” (Isa 53:12; Le 17:11) Consequently, during the evening meal he did not perform a miracle of transubstantiation, changing the bread into his literal flesh and the wine into his literal blood. For the same reasons, it cannot be truly said that he miraculously caused his flesh and his blood to be present or combined with the bread and wine, as is claimed by those who adhere to the doctrine of consubstantiation.

This is not contradicted by Jesus’ words at John 6:51-57. Jesus was not there discussing the Lord’s Evening Meal; such an arrangement was not instituted until a year later. The ‘eating’ and ‘drinking’ mentioned in this account are done in a figurative sense by exercising faith in Jesus Christ, as is indicated by verses 35 and 40.

Furthermore, eating actual human flesh and blood would be cannibalism. Therefore, Jews who were not exercising faith and who did not properly understand Jesus’ statement about eating his flesh and drinking his blood were shocked. This indicated the Jewish view on eating human flesh and blood, as inculcated by the Law.—John 6:60.

Additionally, drinking blood was a violation of God’s law to Noah, prior to the Law covenant. (Ge 9:4; Le 17:10) The Lord Jesus Christ would never instruct others to violate God’s law. (Compare Mt 5:19.) Furthermore, Jesus commanded: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me,” not in sacrifice of me.—1Co 11:23-25.

The bread and the wine are, therefore, emblems, representing Christ’s flesh and blood in a symbolic way, just as were his words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Jesus had said to those offended by his words: “For a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Joh 6:51) This was given at his death as a sacrifice. His body was buried and was disposed of by his Father before it could see corruption. (Ac 2:31) No one ever ate any of his flesh or blood, literally.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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This is not contradicted by Jesus’ words at John 6:51-57.
And I quote:
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Originally Posted by John 6:51-57
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
That actually sounds pretty explicitly like he is saying transubstantiation is occuring, though I will happily point out that it is pretty much just Catholocism of the branches of Christianity that still professes doctrinally to believe this.

Last edited by devonin; 07-18-2007 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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That actually sounds pretty explicitly like he is saying transubstantiation is occuring.
Re-read my post. It is made clear from the context of the chapter that Jesus is not talking about the Lords evening meal.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

He needn't be talking about the Lords evening meal when he says that. Bear in mind that this discussion is directly on the heels of miracles anyway. You seem to be approaching this from a "He didn't cut flesh off his body, or bleed into a cup, therefore, not body and blood" standpoint, when the Miracle of Transubstantiation is just that, Miraculous.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Oh, and for moches, this is a Jack Chick Tract.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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He needn't be talking about the Lords evening meal when he says that. Bear in mind that this discussion is directly on the heels of miracles anyway. You seem to be approaching this from a "He didn't cut flesh off his body, or bleed into a cup, therefore, not body and blood" standpoint, when the Miracle of Transubstantiation is just that, Miraculous.
Its not only that he wasn't "talking" about the Lord's Evening Meal. There is no connection to it, the Lords Evening Meal was set up more than a year afterwards. This particular chapter is simply about putting and exercising faith in Jesus, and doing so by figuratively partaking of his body.

Additionally, cannibalism and the drinking of Blood would directly violate God's Law. Not something Jesus would instruct anyone to do.

*Edit* For the scriptures that state this very clear fact, refer to my earlier post.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

According to a couple sources that I've found, the usual interpretation of the covenant in Ge 9, is that you are not to eat animals that are still alive. This website looks at the covenant fairly closely, and is referenced with sources including a former Jesuit who is director of the Humanities Center at the Claremont Graduate School, near Los Angeles, and such historical accounts as Rabbinic sources like the commentary on the Talmud by Rabbi Raschi.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Practically religion gives people a reason to hope, however, it can also be used as a reason to lord over others. The previous Pope (John Paul II) stressed love and compassion towards other human beings. Benedict XVI is one of those hardcore fire and brimstone guys who make bold statements in a time where, you know, you can't really make bold statements without something negative happening. He's trying to establish religious intolerance by his statements in a time where we need religious tolerance, because the last thing we need in this world is a war over who has the better imaginary friend.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

When one of the basic tenets of your faith is that the only true path to salvation is through your faith, the idea of religious relativism is incredibly objectionable, in that you're being asked to smile merrily along while you damn people through inaction.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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According to a couple sources that I've found, the usual interpretation of the covenant in Ge 9, is that you are not to eat animals that are still alive. website looks at the covenant fairly closely, and is referenced with sources including a former Jesuit who is director of the Humanities Center at the Claremont Graduate School, near Los Angeles, and such historical accounts as Rabbinic sources like the commentary on the Talmud by Rabbi Raschi.
Acts 15:19,20 Re-Affirms the command to abstain from Blood. Not to "abstain from eating animals while they're still alive".

The idea related here is pretty simple if you ask me.

*edit*

Not to mention, there is a plethora of other scriptures within the old testament that state to abstain from blood without mentioning the life of the animal as in Ge.9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:33&version=49

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Old 07-18-2007, 02:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

If, given the common intepretation of theologions that GE 9 refers to eating animals while still alive
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Remember, blood is being used as a metaphor for life. So it is likely that theses verses are in effect saying "don't eat animals that are still alive,"
how is Acts 15:20 saying "but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. " any less likely to mean the same thing?

As the text of the passage is actually written, Acts 15 says "Tell them to avoid blood" which could mean many things. Avoid drinking blood? Avoid contact of the blood of other things on you? Try not to cut yourself shaving?
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:51 PM   #37
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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If, given the common intepretation of theologions that GE 9 refers to eating animals while still alive how is Acts 15:20 saying "but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. " any less likely to mean the same thing?

As the text of the passage is actually written, Acts 15 says "Tell them to avoid blood" which could mean many things. Avoid drinking blood? Avoid contact of the blood of other things on you? Try not to cut yourself shaving?
Despite the fluctuating interpretations of theologians, the text remains the same. And clearly says to not eat blood.

You will notice that Acts 15 also says to abstain from strangled animals, the reason for this being, a strangled animal has not been bled and the blood soaks into the meat.

Therefore, a dead animal (thats strangled) with blood in the meat is unacceptable.

Since it is almost the exact same wording between the two testaments I would venture to say that Acts clarifies this idea, Of not "Eating Blood". (That no food is Acceptable with Blood, Dead or Alive)

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Old 07-18-2007, 02:59 PM   #38
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Tying this all back into transubstantiation, clearly, interpreting John 6:51-57 as one literally eating and drinking the blood and flesh of Jesus, is Biblically unfounded.
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

I think we are all missing the point of the story:

Kill your God, eat his flesh, and drink his blood.



It's delicious.
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

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I think we are all missing the point of the story:

Kill your God, eat his flesh, and drink his blood.



It's delicious.
Yes, the doctrine is as ridiculous as it sounds.
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