Old 06-19-2007, 11:29 PM   #1
IceSide
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Default We need change.

Note: Forgive my sounding as if I'm writing a sort of moral essay or I'm sort of radical political blogger type individual, I apoligize in advance for any inaccuracies or conflict of opinion.

Greed is a part of human psyche. Say the word and many images pop into mind. People fighting for the last food object or an altercation between two individuals who have simply found a dollar on the street.

Money attributes to greed, as does our needs of life, (IE food, shelter, etc.) and it seems to me that it won't stop growing until we realize the scarcity of everything. Sure, some things can be remade, plants and vegetables. It may even be possible, in my belief, to clone certain objects(EX:meat) in order to keep their existance continuous, even though cellular structure breaks down through repeated cloning. Greed is such an evil and driving instinct in humans.

Greed also kills as well. Think of a person who has some sort of disease that has been known to be uncurable. He gets drugs to try and fight off the potential uncurable diseases. My heart goes out to those individuals. They've got hope when there's no possible way they'll survive to a completely natural end. I say this why? Think of the drug companies. The persons who get their drugs from them. There's probably a cure that the government has kept from the public to continue revenue from their drugs. Think of the money! Ah. Such greed kills.

So we've established greed kills and greed stirs from humanity. What big point am I alluring to? I dislike our government as a whole. We've established in the past that the government of the United States is made by the people and so on. But is it really for the people anymore? To me, it seems it is only for the wealthy. The US has become a sort of greedy clique of some sort.

How could we correct the problem? Why we'd have to teach the public to suppress urges of greed. But the government itself uses the media to corrupt the public into a state of non caring. I've heard it said on CNN a few days ago. We care more about the wealthy than we do our very selves. As well as that, we cannot correct the problem with the above listed method. The United States has created certain freedoms whereas we cannot do that. So essentially all forms of government are playing from power from years ago. This is not a free country. This is a gigantic ghetto with palaces spread round. The classic Marxism of the Bourgoise versus the Proletariat.

In my views, I could seem like a lunatic, but we need to move more towards socialism, not purely, but we need to move it closer so we've got more control. I believe that everyone should work for one another and not for personal pleasures. Not entirely atleast. We must have our own small personal happiness, but we also must ensure the public and those in force should also be pleased as well. Sure, label me a communist if you please. I simply wish to state that the current state of the world displeases me, and I see it simply as something insanely radical MUST be done in order to create a better nation. Otherwise, we're doomed to eventually get ourselves bombed. I'm looking out not as a United States protector, but that of a protector of human lives. Many more have it worse than us, I understand that we all suffer in variant ways, but we must evolve, or we will perish.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: We need change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceSide View Post
Note: Forgive my sounding as if I'm writing a sort of moral essay or I'm sort of radical political blogger type individual, I apoligize in advance for any inaccuracies or conflict of opinion.
You would be better served to try and root and and resolve internal conflicts or inconsistancies in your opinion, rather than simply apologising for them.

Quote:
Money attributes to greed, as does our needs of life, (IE food, shelter, etc.) and it seems to me that it won't stop growing until we realize the scarcity of everything.
Money, fundamentally, is just an intermediary to the barter system. The concept of Greed is only associated with things such as money because unlike a barter system, people can stockpile the intermediate exchange and fully intend never to actually complete the trade they have taken part in. They've assigned a concrete value to an object that actually has no concrete value except the ways in which it can be used.

Quote:
Greed is such an evil and driving instinct in humans.
Driving yes, Evil? I take issue with that. Were it not for greed, and a drive to gain resources for oneself at the possible expense of others, I rather suspect that our species would have long since become prey and died out.

Quote:
Think of the drug companies. The persons who get their drugs from them. There's probably a cure that the government has kept from the public to continue revenue from their drugs. Think of the money! Ah. Such greed kills.
If you could -prove- that various cures for otherwise incurable diseases exist and are being kept secret so that drug companies can continue to make profit treating the symptoms, you might have a point here, but as it stands, it is just supposition.

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So we've established greed kills and greed stirs from humanity.
I'm not sure you have. Historically, we've established that greed is what lets us live, and is basic to humanity because we have a drive to prolong our own life.

Quote:
What big point am I alluring to? I dislike our government as a whole. We've established in the past that the government of the United States is made by the people and so on. But is it really for the people anymore? To me, it seems it is only for the wealthy. The US has become a sort of greedy clique of some sort.
You really should present your backing evidence from a more americo-centric view, if your intent is to pose a critique of the american political and economical system. I won't address this particular point because I'm sure Kilroy_X will see it soon, and this is much more his field of expertise than mine. (Also, as a note, it's alluding, not alluring)

Quote:
How could we correct the problem? Why we'd have to teach the public to suppress urges of greed.
If you supressed the desire for humans to ensure their own survivial, you would more than likely encourage its destruction.

Quote:
But the government itself uses the media to corrupt the public into a state of non caring. I've heard it said on CNN a few days ago. We care more about the wealthy than we do our very selves. As well as that, we cannot correct the problem with the above listed method. The United States has created certain freedoms whereas we cannot do that. So essentially all forms of government are playing from power from years ago. This is not a free country. This is a gigantic ghetto with palaces spread round. The classic Marxism of the Bourgoise versus the Proletariat.
Wait...America is constricted because it has too much freedom? America is a capitalist society, the wealthy are treated better because the wealthy contributed more to the functioning of the society in order to -become- wealthy. (Obviously people who simply inherit large sums of money but are useless wastes of space are exceptions here, but somewhere down the line someone was successful and contributed to the economy of the nation) Also...yes, Marx was specifically describing capitalist economies when he was writing about that struggle, so it stands to reason that a nation that exemplifies capitalism would fit in with that view.

Quote:
In my views, I could seem like a lunatic, but we need to move more towards socialism, not purely, but we need to move it closer so we've got more control. I believe that everyone should work for one another and not for personal pleasures. Not entirely atleast. We must have our own small personal happiness, but we also must ensure the public and those in force should also be pleased as well. Sure, label me a communist if you please. I simply wish to state that the current state of the world displeases me, and I see it simply as something insanely radical MUST be done in order to create a better nation. Otherwise, we're doomed to eventually get ourselves bombed. I'm looking out not as a United States protector, but that of a protector of human lives. Many more have it worse than us, I understand that we all suffer in variant ways, but we must evolve, or we will perish.
Well, I'm not sure what you are, but a communist isn't it. One of the pitfalls that plague many people who've read Marx and Engels is that they somehow seem to think that through radical action, the process of the socialist revolution can be jump-started into motion while capitalism is raging strong.

Marx never said that, and anybody who suggested it to him, he'd like as not call a fool to their face. Capitalism is a system that is based upon the concept of infinite growth. As long as growth continues to occur, capitalism will remain and become more entrenched. I'd argue that there's generally not a damn thing you could do about it either. To wit: Every attempt to forge a communist state out of a non-communist state through means other than the unanimous support of the population (hint: this has never happened on a large political scale) has failed miserably almost immidiately.

You can't force the Marxist revolution. He always said that it was an inevitable consequence of the quest for infinite growth. It will plateau, and then collapse in on itself. Only when that has happened, can the workers rise up and sieze the means of production.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: We need change.

To the OP: Almost everything you said is wrong. I will handle it later when I have the energy.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: We need change.

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
To the OP: Almost everything you said is wrong. I will handle it later when I have the energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me in my response above
won't address this particular point because I'm sure Kilroy_X will see it soon, and this is much more his field of expertise than mine.
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Old 06-20-2007, 02:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: We need change.

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Originally Posted by IceSide View Post
Greed is such an evil and driving instinct in humans.
I'm not going to take too much time to talk about the idea of greed, but I definatly disagree with greed being evil. I want people to be peaceful, but honestly, for my own personal desires. I want people to get along instead of fight pointless wars such as that being fought in Iraq. Sure, I only want peace because perhaps I would expect such things like hovercrafts, brainchips, and any other futuristic things, but where is the evil in that? Also, sure it is not pleasant at all to be greedy because they might not ever spend what they have to help others or even themselves, but it's not evil unless you do bad things to obtain what you have now (lie and say that cigarettes don't cause cancer). People actually worked for what they have now so they can keep what they have now if they choose. As for any person who doesn't have a chance to ever obtain money or any status, I would hope that they recieve help, but in my opinion, only if they want to ever want to be successful and not some person who sits around and does nothing. Unfortunatly, I don't feel as though anyone is obligated to help any poor person unless they choose to (I would help someone in need if I could spare it).

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Old 06-20-2007, 02:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: We need change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceSide View Post
Greed is a part of human psyche. Say the word and many images pop into mind. People fighting for the last food object or an altercation between two individuals who have simply found a dollar on the street.
Here we have your first premise, that greed is part of the human psyche. Now, here's a somewhat important question; what is the human psyche? Is it fluid and dynamic, responding to social changes, or is it rigid and biologically ingrained? Or perhaps it has some of both aspects?

Quote:
Money attributes to greed, as does our needs of life, (IE food, shelter, etc.) and it seems to me that it won't stop growing until we realize the scarcity of everything.
Money itself doesn't attribute to greed, money is primarily a way of honoring contracts. People decide, based on greed or not, how they want to use money. It is also interesting you attribute "needs of life" to greed. I think this is probably the most correct thing you have said in your entire post.

To make it clear, I think this is probably so correct that if it were possible to remove "greed" completely from the "human psyche", it would result in people not eating, drinking, or searching to satisfy any other basic desires. This is simply because desires and "greed" stem from the same basic processes, and to remove all "greed" would likely be to remove all desires.

Quote:
Greed is such an evil and driving instinct in humans.
Why is greed evil?

I will treat this as your second main premise.

Quote:
Greed also kills as well. Think of a person who has some sort of disease that has been known to be uncurable. He gets drugs to try and fight off the potential uncurable diseases. My heart goes out to those individuals. They've got hope when there's no possible way they'll survive to a completely natural end. I say this why? Think of the drug companies. The persons who get their drugs from them. There's probably a cure that the government has kept from the public to continue revenue from their drugs. Think of the money! Ah. Such greed kills.
This is incredibly speculative, and as such not a line of reason with any basis. It is also somewhat ignorant, because the government doesn't generally produce drugs. However, if you analyzed the role of government in drug production from the positions of Economists Rothbard or Friedman, you would find the government does prevent the development of new drugs. They do it not intentionally, and not for money, but because demands by the socialistically inclined for regulation of drugs have very adverse effects on the production of new drugs.

If you take it from Friedman's perspective, the cost imposed by regulation both limits the potential of a drug company to invest in new products, and results in a forward shifting of cost to consumers. From Rothbard's perspective, forward shifting of cost is logically impossible, so the effect of regulation is to impose cost entirely on drug companies. This results in some drug companies going out of business or becoming uncompetitive in a specific market and thus gives the remaining drug companies the ability to raise prices.

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So we've established greed kills and greed stirs from humanity.
You have established only the second part of that. I believe it would be possible to establish the first, just not through the example you gave.

Quote:
What big point am I alluring to? I dislike our government as a whole. We've established in the past that the government of the United States is made by the people and so on. But is it really for the people anymore? To me, it seems it is only for the wealthy. The US has become a sort of greedy clique of some sort.
All governments which interfere with the economic affairs of their people create distortions to the extent they do so. The US government is not exactly "for the wealthy", despite what people like Zinn might have you believe. The US government, however, does create and uphold class divisions. Firstly, by taxing it imposes both specific and general costs, which prevent economic mobility, prevent optimal wages, and prevents specialization which results in privilege to those who can still afford to specialize. Then the use of tax money also represents a distortion in the market, because whatever the money is used to pay for supports things the original consumer wouldn't have wanted. By doing this, the government creates two distinct classes off the bat; tax payers and tax consumers. Government employees and government subsidized interests therefore benefit at the expense of others who suffer. Given the unequal distribution of wealth, even "progressive" taxation inevitably serves to prevent class mobility.

Quote:
How could we correct the problem? Why we'd have to teach the public to suppress urges of greed.
Your premises are at best unsupported, so this conclusion does not follow.

Quote:
But the government itself uses the media to corrupt the public into a state of non caring.
Proof?

Quote:
I've heard it said on CNN a few days ago.
...

Quote:
We care more about the wealthy than we do our very selves. As well as that, we cannot correct the problem with the above listed method. The United States has created certain freedoms whereas we cannot do that. So essentially all forms of government are playing from power from years ago. This is not a free country. This is a gigantic ghetto with palaces spread round. The classic Marxism of the Bourgoise versus the Proletariat.
Hardly. Freedom is measured along a spectrum. The US falls at the upper end of the spectrum. However, most of the inequities we see in this country can be explained by pointing to the limitations and invasions of freedom still in place.

Quote:
In my views, I could seem like a lunatic, but we need to move more towards socialism, not purely, but we need to move it closer so we've got more control.
Socialism does not create control. If administered democratically it is the least bad form of Socialism, but as a matter of definition Socialism requires centralized economic controls and interference. People in positions of government or government favor as such will always benefit at the expense of tax payers, and tax payers will receive fewer benefits than if they had just decided for themselves individually what to spend their money on. So, technically, you have "control", but the control you have seems awfully similar to the "small concessions made by the system to the lower classes to maintain stability so the rich can continue to make use of the political economy" talked about by Zinn.

[quote]I believe that everyone should work for one another and not for personal pleasures. [quote]

I'm not sure this is possible, how do they "work for each other"? The monetary system, to the extent it is not interfered with (given its federalized nature though technically it is always interfered with), enables people to work "for each other". I give you money, you do something for me. I get something I want, so technically you "worked for me". Then, you take money, repeat the process. This is of course a labor centric perspective, you can work for a person by making them food or housing, but it is the food or housing itself that benefits the person, so although you did "work for them", you did so by providing them something they value, not by creating value through labor as many Marxists contend.

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Not entirely atleast. We must have our own small personal happiness, but we also must ensure the public and those in force should also be pleased as well.
"The public" is just the aggregate of all individuals. Why shouldn't "public" happiness come about the same way individual happiness does? Even if you answer this, you still need to provide a viable alternative. This would be hard to do, since Free-market capitalism, with the exception of externalities and prisoner scenarios, renders utility perfectly. Now, you can either try to show that there are so many externalities and prisoner scenarios that FMC represents a loss in utility compared to an alternate system, or you can try to show that a well defined alternate system does have superior utility.

Also, what do you mean by those "in force"? Why distinguish them from the "public"?

Quote:
Sure, label me a communist if you please.
The main distinction between socialism and communism is this; Communists want to control the means of production, Socialists want to leave the means of production mostly in place, with limited control, while controlling the outcome of production. IE, Socialists want to redistribute wealth, Communists want to create a system which creates no wealth inequalities to begin with.

Although you haven't been specific as to which of these perspectives you hold to, it should be noticed that both of these aims fail.

Quote:
I simply wish to state that the current state of the world displeases me, and I see it simply as something insanely radical MUST be done in order to create a better nation. Otherwise, we're doomed to eventually get ourselves bombed. I'm looking out not as a United States protector, but that of a protector of human lives. Many more have it worse than us, I understand that we all suffer in variant ways, but we must evolve, or we will perish.
Before you advocate anything radical, you should look to see what approaches have worked. The approach you are advocating does not work. It will lead to a worse nation.

I think some perspective would benefit you. The world always has problems. However, as you yourself noted, some parts of the world have more problems than others. Of course, problems make us all unhappy. I think if you recognized that the current system represented much less suffering relative to other systems, and that there are other refinements which would create even less suffering, you wouldn't advocate such radical change.

As a side note, your last sentence I really do find humorous. Did you know that in the Soviet Union, the office biological position of the country was one of Lamarckian evolution? Lamarckian, as opposed to Darwinian evolution, suggested that changes made to a creature, or even just environmental pressures put on a creature, would manifest as adaptations in the next generation.

What does this mean? It means if you cut the tail off a rat, its offspring won't have a tail. Well, this was demonstrated to be false in very short order. However, that didn't prevent the Soviet Minister of Agriculture from claiming many years later that by putting Oak trees in Siberia repeatedly they would eventually, despite repeated death from the cold, start growing there.

Well, turns out they didn't.
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Old 06-20-2007, 05:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: We need change.

how do you write so much...

Anway, I don't really agree with most of the stuff IceSide said, but I do think that if people were less greedy they would be more happy. Humans in general wan't things they don't actually need. There have been several wars over oil, diamonds, etc. that were all fueled by greed. Countless people died, more were injured, and in the end, more was lost than gained(most of the time)

I remember having once read a joke about this monk, who, on his birthday, oppened all his presents to find them empty. The caption read "Nothing! Just what I've always wanted!" (for those of you who don't get it, please don't ask me to explain. I won't)

I found it rather ridiculous at the time, but I think that if you can learn to want what you alredy have instead of leading a very materialistic life, you will be much happier.
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: We need change.

America is a very greedy country full of very greedy people. I don't believe myself to be materialistic in the least. I find pleasure in life's simplest endeavors. I love camping, hiking, climbing, biking, making up games with friends...

If you let materials take over your life, they push away the things very dear to you...your family and friends.
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: We need change.

The one thing I don't agree with is working for the public. While I'd love to see everyone happy and well off, I don't feel I should pay for someone to be lazy.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: We need change.

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Originally Posted by IceSide View Post
There's probably a cure that the government has kept from the public
I stopped reading there, although I probably should have stopped a lot earlier.

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
Quote:
But the government itself uses the media to corrupt the public into a state of non caring.
Proof?

Quote:
I've heard it said on CNN a few days ago.
...
I lol'd hard.
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Old 06-24-2007, 03:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: We need change.

of course we need a change. everything in our world sucks like i cant even say. greed and the greed for money is only half of it. everyone wants everything that they cant have. we're all so selfish! we're idiots stuck on this planet, hurting everyone and killing everything and getting rid of every little thing that bugs us. everyone may as well wear no clothes at all like it was in the beginning because people barely wear clothes as it is. doesnt anyone else see that we're slowly but surely destroying ourselves? we're all gonna die and rot in hell. its all we deserve. unless we change. NOW.
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Old 06-24-2007, 03:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: We need change.

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of course we need a change. everything in our world sucks like i cant even say. greed and the greed for money is only half of it. everyone wants everything that they cant have. we're all so selfish! we're idiots stuck on this planet, hurting everyone and killing everything and getting rid of every little thing that bugs us. everyone may as well wear no clothes at all like it was in the beginning because people barely wear clothes as it is. doesnt anyone else see that we're slowly but surely destroying ourselves? we're all gonna die and rot in hell. its all we deserve. unless we change. NOW.
A true CT* classic. ^

Anyways, humans are part of nature, what we are doing is perfectly fine according to non existence of rules aside from the ones we come up with. Hope you see my point ;p
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Old 06-25-2007, 01:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: We need change.

We are a bunch of Capitalists, so that's where this "greed" spawns from; the whole point is to make money.

Yes, it seems that money has engulfed the whole political system...

So you say we need change then? Obviously, that's why we will take the positions of our leaders when the time comes. That's where History class comes in.
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Old 06-25-2007, 01:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: We need change.

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America is a very greedy country full of very greedy people. I don't believe myself to be materialistic in the least. I find pleasure in life's simplest endeavors. I love camping, hiking, climbing, biking, making up games with friends...

If you let materials take over your life, they push away the things very dear to you...your family and friends.
You can't camp, hike, climb, or bike without materials, and you can't make up games very long without materials...

for instance, food.
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Old 06-25-2007, 01:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: We need change.

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Yes, it seems that money has engulfed the whole political system...

So you say we need change then? Obviously, that's why we will take the positions of our leaders when the time comes. That's where History class comes in.
I think that economics class and philosophy class would make that history class a bit more helpful.
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Old 06-25-2007, 02:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: We need change.

And amsuingly, a full half of the wealthiest CEOs in our "horrible, greedy, capitalist' state graduated their colleges with liberal arts degrees like history, philosophy, or labour studies.
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Old 06-25-2007, 11:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: We need change.

Greed in itself isn't a real problem. It's the means by which people satisfy their greed that becomes an issue.

Greed, and desire to have a better life for yourself isn't bad. If it weren't for greed, conditions would never improve. There would never be new inventions and such, as no one would be desiring better for themselves.

It only becomes a problem, when people are willing to use counterproductive means of getting what they desire. For example lying and theft are when greed becomes a issue.

Quote:
How could we correct the problem? Why we'd have to teach the public to suppress urges of greed.
Removing greed entirely would create poor conditions, and perhaps with no greed at all there would perhaps be no desire to live even. Greed is only bad because it's provocative of corruption. And since there's no way to remove corruption completely from humanity, removing greed wouldn't create that much of a positive change. If it wasn't greed instigating corruption, people wouldn't only find something else to kill each other over.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: We need change.

Greed is human nature.
But the way society portrays everything at the present, how can we make greed something benificial?
We can't.
We're following the natural order of things. Everything must come to an end, and we are close.

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Old 06-27-2007, 08:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: We need change.

How is following the natural order of things not beneficial? It got us this far without rendering ourselves extinct.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
You can't camp, hike, climb, or bike without materials, and you can't make up games very long without materials...

for instance, food.
By saying materialistic I mean materials for pure pleasure, or for status symbols.

You can camp without equipment. You can hike without gear. You can climb with no gear (very dangerous, but you can). Biking requires a bike, but I don't believe that to be materialistic. It's a form of transportation, like a horse would be 200 years ago.
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