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Old 06-3-2007, 06:36 PM   #21
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Hence why I said, "and is thus as infinite as the universe may be." I intended to note that the finite or infinite nature of humanity is dictated by the state of the universe.

But that wasn't even my point, so I don't know why you picked that out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of the Faster
I personally believe that human beings can live for ever.
Uh, explain. However, I don't think you're going to say anything that shouldn't be met with "you're wrong" or "that's a soul".

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Old 06-3-2007, 06:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: What's a soul?

The concept of self and self-image, morals and empathy, and ability to consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future are more like what I would expect to hear from someone arguing that humans have a "soul" above other organisms, but no one has said it yet, so I'm throwing it out there. These are higher processes that are harder to argue against since humans are seemingly the only beings on this planet that exhibit them to a high degree, but I would still assert that they are simply advanced forms of natural biological processes as well.

When I first posted I was mainly just playing Devil's Advocate, but I'm really speaking from my own opinion entirely here.

The soul is a beautiful concept, but I have to say I am not entirely convinced it exists... at least not in the way it is currently defined.
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Old 06-3-2007, 06:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster View Post
Why do you say such a thing? Even if it's true, why is it most likely (in regards to the fact that there is no shown evidence in the thread)?
Because all observations of any given property of the universe have thus far shown any given component investigated to be finite in nature. Even the speed of light is finite, 299,792,458 m / s.
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Old 06-3-2007, 06:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: What's a soul?

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Originally Posted by jamuko View Post
The concept of self and self-image
Other animals have exhibited signs of this. The standard test is the mirror test. If the animal recognizes that the image in the mirror is itself, then it possess some level of self awareness or image.

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morals and empathy
Problematically subjective.

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and ability to consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future
You might as well take the "consciously" part out of there, it doesn't serve any purpose and is redundant. And then, once you do that, you see that this is also something which relies on an arbitrarily or at least problematically subjective definition of how much weighing and planning is required for it to have meaning.

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These are higher processes that are harder to argue against since humans are seemingly the only beings on this planet that exhibit them to a high degree, but I would still assert that they are simply advanced forms of natural biological processes as well.
They are. Every one of them is reducible to explainable processes. Reciprocal altruism can explain morals and empathy, for example. Also, what of human beings who exhibit less or no empathy? Do they not have souls?
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Old 06-3-2007, 06:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter View Post
But that wasn't even my point, so I don't know why you picked that out...
Perhaps you would care to clarify your point then, because I have no idea what it is.
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Old 06-3-2007, 06:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: What's a soul?

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
What dream is this?
Well I can understand that you may have not clearly understood that living for ever is one of my goals, but I tried to imply that the second sentence was linked with the first.

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
You're arguing that advancement of human progress will ultimately lead to our ability to create an artificial paradise, rendering concerns about the human soul irrelevant? Well maybe, but that still doesn't mean there might not be truth or falsity about any given claim made about the soul. It just means the demand for such finding out through such deliberation has been supplanted by an alternate demand which is preferred because it is attainable.
As for this, I simply outlined a hypothetical scenario and I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that humans shouldn't be worried too much about these types of matters in the short span of life that we have unless we have any type of evidence (relevant that is). I mean if you lived in my scenario, you would live for eternity and wouldn't have to worry about death so you would have more time to spend (possibly finding out the secrets of a soul and religion). The word soul itself is just as manmade and unexplainable as the definition of a god so I see no point in persuing these unless you have evidence.

Last edited by Master_of_the_Faster; 06-3-2007 at 06:55 PM..
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Souls are what humans invented as another means of asserting that they were "superior" to animals, despite the fact that they are, in fact, animals.

Anyways...I tried to post that bit when the thread was young, but it didn't work, and now the discussion has gone far beyond such simple statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy_x
Because all observations of any given property of the universe have thus far shown any given component investigated to be finite in nature.
Just as an aside, I like the discussions about the state of the universe like this. Tell me Kilroy, if the universe is finite, you can presumably go and go and go and hit the "end" of it, yes? If so...what is there? A wall? A void? Do you wrap around to the other side?

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Originally Posted by jamuko
consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future
The ability to understand the future consequences of actions now is a hallmark of intelligence and sentience, not "having a soul"
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Master of the Faster: you should watch "The Fountain".


Devonin and Kilroy, I agree with you; I was just throwing those things out there for the sake of discussion on the part of the soul-people, since they were not doing so themselves.
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: What's a soul?

If people want to discuss on the lines of the universe I would just wonder these things. If space was finite, would it be a sphere like the world? Or flat like people assumed the Earth was? Or does a boundary exist at all? Are these ideas even possible to explain at all?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster View Post
Well I can understand that you may have not clearly understood that living for ever is one of my goals, but I tried to imply that the second sentence was linked with the first.
The problem was that you didn't explain how. Remember, living forever is a concept used in religious thought much more often than secular thought, so your literal use of the term wasn't as obvious as you seem to think.

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As for this, I simply outlined a hypothetical scenario
No you didn't. A hypothetical scenario would involve saying how you expect human beings to be able to live forever, whether by medical advances or technological advances, or some other fashion.

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and I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others.
None of that was clear in your initial statements.

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Basically what I'm trying to say is that humans shouldn't be worried too much about these types of matters in the short span of life that we have unless we have any type of evidence (relevant that is).
Whether or not we have evidence is often one of the things debated.

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I mean if you lived in my scenario, you would live for eternity
Highly unlikely, given the finite nature of things.

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and wouldn't have to worry about death so you would have more time to spend (possibly finding out the secrets of a soul and religion).
This is likely true.

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The word soul itself is just as manmade and unexplainable as the definition of a god so I see no point in persuing these unless you have evidence.
You realize that I don't believe the soul exists in any spiritual or religious sense, don't you?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:09 PM   #31
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Default Re: What's a soul?

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Just as an aside, I like the discussions about the state of the universe like this. Tell me Kilroy, if the universe is finite, you can presumably go and go and go and hit the "end" of it, yes? If so...what is there? A wall? A void? Do you wrap around to the other side?
I don't know, I'm not a physicist. I'm not sure that physicists know. None of that matters. I suppose we could say "We don't know whether the universe is infinite or finite" but the basis of my statement is that all observations have thus far shown the universe to be finite.
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Our ability to observe processes in action imply that those processes are finite, but that's just entropy in action. My question refers primarily to the "size" of the universe.

If you can go and go and go and hit a wall, you may be tempted to say "A ha, the universe is finite" but what is the wall? What is on the other side of it? More wall is still something, void is still -something- even if only describable by its lack of other characteristics.

It seems to me that the (hmm I don't want to say 'universe' but 'multiverse implies other universes full of stuff) Superverse is necessarily infinite because if ever you get to a barrier or stopping point, the question becomes "what is on the other side of it" In that context, the word "nothing" means precisely that.

Granted if on that logic you admit that it is infinite, you don't really -gain- anything from that conclusion, but there's a very agnostical slant to the idea that even if we knew, we either coudln't grasp it, or it just woudln't reveal anything particularly cogent about the world to us.
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:17 PM   #33
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Default Re: What's a soul?

In the discussion of what beings have souls, let's look at the denotation of the word soul:

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
Note the part "in humans". This basically proves what devonin was saying, that the concept of a soul was created to separate humans from animals.

Now, let's say that somewhere in the universe there was a species that is to us as we are to birds. If they weren't advanced enough to disprove the idea of a soul, how would they view us in the matter of souls? We mostly believe that we have souls and everything inferior to us does not. What about everything superior to us? Is soul simply a human concept or any form of intelligent life?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:19 PM   #34
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Well I understand that I may have not said certain things in my initial argument like "I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others," but I was just trying to add more information to make it clear now.
As for my scenario, I meant to say that perhaps we could find a way to make people live for ever by using technology (such as a robot), biological ways (like how trees live for so long), or any other ways. I just know that it's a possibility. Unless having a soul or religion are proven tie into being in such a state of living for ever (by that I mean not dead as a spirit, but in the world that we live in right now) or any other matters at hand, I don't think religion and spirits should be persued. I mean if you think about it, how is a person going to find a god/ any soul they think might exist faster than making technology that seems more likely to be possible because of our progress in the scientific world?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:28 PM   #35
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster View Post
Well I understand that I may have not said certain things in my initial argument like "I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others," but I was just trying to add more information to make it clear now.
As for my scenario, I meant to say that perhaps we could find a way to make people live for ever by using technology (such as a robot), biological ways (like how trees live for so long), or any other ways. I just know that it's a possibility. Unless having a soul or religion are proven tie into being in such a state of living for ever (by that I mean not dead as a spirit, but in the world that we live in right now) or any other matters at hand, I don't think religion and spirits should be persued. I mean if you think about it, how is a person going to find a god/ any soul they think might exist faster than making technology that seems more likely to be possible because of our progress in the scientific world?
I feel like I might want to get into this discussion, but I need to clarify one thing before I do.

So what you're trying to say is that until we find a way to live for an infinite period of time, trying to determine the existence and workings of any spiritual concept is useless, because it would take an infinite (or ridiculously long) amount of time to do so?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:31 PM   #36
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Percisely. I mean think about our progress in the world. How in the world would we even start to go about finding souls and religion? There is almost no way to start such a search so it's basically pointless unless we lived for a very long time. We have no leads on these issues at all. I personally don't like the idea of death no matter what anyone says. Even if I go off to a heaven like place, I would rather stay in Earth and not take my chances. However, living for ever is not only dedicated for the purpose of religion and spirits, it's also to not worry about the everyday problems of a normal life. I want to make it clear that there is also a possibility that none of the things mentioned about spirits and religion exist.

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Old 06-3-2007, 07:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: What's a soul?

I will say this. I am NOT tired of seeing threads get flamed for lack of evidence. Facts are based on evidence.
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: What's a soul?

...because if there's no evidence in a person's mind that something exists, there's a 100.000000% chance that it doesn't exist, right?
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:48 PM   #39
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Default Re: What's a soul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
If you can go and go and go and hit a wall, you may be tempted to say "A ha, the universe is finite"
I thought you were going somewhere with this.

Quote:
but what is the wall? What is on the other side of it? More wall is still something, void is still -something- even if only describable by its lack of other characteristics.
Then you said this. "Void" is something with no characteristics. It's the absence of characteristics, and if you want to call this absence a characteristic that's just defining the void in terms of what you actually understand. The void isn't actually that way.

Quote:
It seems to me that the (hmm I don't want to say 'universe' but 'multiverse implies other universes full of stuff) Superverse is necessarily infinite because if ever you get to a barrier or stopping point, the question becomes "what is on the other side of it" In that context, the word "nothing" means precisely that.
Well congratulations, you've joined countless other intelligent minds who fell into the "That makes me uncomfortable" trap. How is this notion of yours any different from Aristotle's abhorrence of an infinite causal chain? Or Rene Descartes belief that "nature abhors a vacuum", which despite having extremely limited basis as an interpretation of natural events was largely driven by his own personal abhorrence. It's possible for nothing to exist. The fact that you can give a name to nonexistence doesn't give the nonexistence itself any properties. It doesn't substantiate nothingness.
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Old 06-3-2007, 07:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: What's a soul?

I never say that. Ever. Look at the people who first proposed that the Earth is round. Evidence was not shared with the people because there was none, but evidence was eventually found and shared to most of the people who now knew that the Earth was and still is round. The point is that I always leave my views to a 50/50 chance that they exist. The only exceptions that I make are if a 50/50 chance (living for ever) seems more persuable than a 50/50 chance such as religion and spirits which might take longer if both are possible. The 50/50 chance are if they either exist at all or don't exist at all.

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