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Old 06-8-2007, 10:27 PM   #81
Master_of_the_Faster
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purebloodtexan View Post
-Arrange a visit with God (Whether spiritually or him visiting your house) and tell him to bring from heaven the following items:
a) a harp
b) a tuft of hair from his beard
c) a yo-yo
If you happen to meet god and your visit goes well and god does actually give you those items, I might believe what you say (only if there is something unusual about the items that only a god could possess [or else I might suspect that you lied]). This visit would be the only way to convince me to think any different about gods and religion because it would be the Only evidence. As for if god happens to be one that you could talk to and meet, I will still hold my feelings against your friend god if he doesn't satisfy giving life, liberty, and property to those who deserve it.

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Old 06-9-2007, 12:15 AM   #82
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Default Re: God.

Of course there's a God.
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Old 06-9-2007, 12:32 AM   #83
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Default Re: God.

Counter-logic:
God is said to be all good, all loving, all forgiving, etc. God created Hell, therefore God cannot be all good, and if God is not all good, God cannot be God. Therefore, God does not exist.

More logicky logic at http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
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Old 06-9-2007, 03:00 AM   #84
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Default Re: God.

You do see how that logic is nonsense though right?

God is said to be X, Y, Z.....

Just because some people say that doesn't make it the case. The people saying that could just be -wrong- which woudln't invalidate the existance of God at all.
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Old 06-9-2007, 03:09 AM   #85
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by chunky_cheese View Post
DDR, only god could have thought of that one.
I'm sorry but I have to quote you.
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Old 06-9-2007, 03:59 AM   #86
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayatewillown View Post
First of all, Spam +1 on all of you.
Second of all, I don't care what religion you are in, and I have no idea why you put forth and show other religions that have nothing to do with this topic. State your ideas on it.

And by the way, that lame statement? Excuse me? You are talking about one of the worlds most intelligent men. I think your problem is that he achieved more than you did. Sorry, but don't pick and poke at what he says.
No. You misquoted him. If not, prove it, I want to see a source.

Einstein's theory of relativity opened the door to the concept of spacetime, where space and time merge into one dimension. It's high level theoretical physics, the likes of which I don't understand. But I know enough to know that Einstein would have made such an incorrect statement.

Space, Time and Matter are important to use because those are the only three dimensions we are aware of and able to interact with. However, much of our understanding of the Universe has led many of todays top theoretical scientists to believe that there exist many more dimensions.

Also, what's with this Einstein Infallibility? His theories are almost a century old. Our understanding of physics has greatly improved since then thanks to our advancements in technology.
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Old 06-9-2007, 10:58 AM   #87
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmix View Post
Counter-logic:
God is said to be all good, all loving, all forgiving, etc. God created Hell, therefore God cannot be all good, and if God is not all good, God cannot be God. Therefore, God does not exist.

More logicky logic at http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
God is all good but punishing people is not bad. Not to mention you are generalizing that all christians belive everything in the Bible. I really only use the Bible as my sort of moral rule book. I'm not even joking when I say I carry the 10-commandments in my pocket. In my opinion we would have a much better world if people would take the Bibles advice.

However I don't belive in Adam and Eve and other such stories. I don't even belive in heaven and hell, I belive when you die your mind in non-existing. There is quite a bit of thought provoking statments that some sort of God (creator or helper of the universe) exists. Look at the brain itself and how complex it is to allow us to sense and think. The workings of the mind is the most complex thing that we know of and I find it hard to belive it happend by dumb chance along with ecological cycles.
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Old 06-9-2007, 01:18 PM   #88
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Default Re: God.

Evolution does NOT contradict the concept of God. Francis Collins is a scientist who led the Human Genome project but is also a very devout Christian. He came up with the concept of Theistic Evolution, something I strongly believe in, and this is how it goes, quoted from Wikipedia:

"1) The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago, (2) Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life, (3) While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over very long periods of time, (4) Once evolution got under way no special supernatural intervention was required, (5) Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes, (6) But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature."
If you see this dude Collins in interviews and debates with atheist scientists, he usually kicks the other person's ass.

I think Stephen Hawking wrote a paper once stating that black holes, in which the laws of physics no longer apply, can house a "heaven" and a "hell," and can very well be a base of operations for a God. Brain waves, emitted when we die, could travel to a black hole. He also stated that we can determine what happened up until the first 36th of a second using the Big Bang theory, but that tiny moment which would explain the origin of life can be attributed to God. I'm not sure about all that though, I only remember reading it from Scientific American but I don't know what issue and when it was written.
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Old 06-9-2007, 02:24 PM   #89
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trillobyite View Post
Evolution does NOT contradict the concept of God. Francis Collins is a scientist who led the Human Genome project but is also a very devout Christian. He came up with the concept of Theistic Evolution, something I strongly believe in, and this is how it goes, quoted from Wikipedia:

"1) The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago, (2) Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life, (3) While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over very long periods of time, (4) Once evolution got under way no special supernatural intervention was required, (5) Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes, (6) But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature."
If you see this dude Collins in interviews and debates with atheist scientists, he usually kicks the other person's ass.

I think Stephen Hawking wrote a paper once stating that black holes, in which the laws of physics no longer apply, can house a "heaven" and a "hell," and can very well be a base of operations for a God. Brain waves, emitted when we die, could travel to a black hole. He also stated that we can determine what happened up until the first 36th of a second using the Big Bang theory, but that tiny moment which would explain the origin of life can be attributed to God. I'm not sure about all that though, I only remember reading it from Scientific American but I don't know what issue and when it was written.
Well, Francis Collins seems to be a very reasonable and openminded person. Unfortunately, lots of people insist on the validity of their holy books, usually written thousands of years ago (There are exceptions, obviously. The Mormons come to mind.) in the face of logic, science and common sense. Some people believe that religion and science are completely incompatable, scientists and religious people alike. There are fundamental questions that science has so far been incapable of answering, and Theistic Evolution may be the answer of our existance and that of the universe.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the simple solution. Even if science doesn't have a plausible theory about the absolute origin of our universe (before the Big Bang), it doesn't mean they won't have one in the future. Even if you tie the concept of creationism and theistic evolution in with science, saying "We can't understand it right now, so God must have done it" isn't the best idea.

Finding a semi-plausible theory and declaring the case closing is just taking the easy way out. (But I still respect your religious openmindedness to science. No offence.)
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Old 06-9-2007, 03:41 PM   #90
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmix View Post
Counter-logic:
God is said to be all good, all loving, all forgiving, etc. God created Hell, therefore God cannot be all good, and if God is not all good, God cannot be God. Therefore, God does not exist.

More logicky logic at http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
you have to be more elaborate on that.
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Old 06-9-2007, 03:52 PM   #91
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Default Re: God.

Well, his logic is inherantly meaningless, so elaboration on mistaken premesis will just make for more mistakes.
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Old 06-9-2007, 04:31 PM   #92
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Default Re: God.

How is it meaningless?
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Old 06-9-2007, 04:49 PM   #93
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
You do see how that logic is nonsense though right?

God is said to be X, Y, Z.....

Just because some people say that doesn't make it the case. The people saying that could just be -wrong- which woudln't invalidate the existance of God at all.
Exactly. People may be wrong about what they say about a god, but that doesn't mean that a god doesn't exist. It means that the people are at fault for their beliefs. For example, some people expect god to be righteous and yet they make god to look like an evil dictator that makes them serve in a church for so long as well as some people who believe that god created hell. If you pray to such a religion that does this, wouldn't that mean that you pray to a dictator who created mischief? Perhaps I wouldn't care if you prayed to something evil or unjust, but if it's a population of people that thinks that this god (if god really was an evil dictator) is righteous, prayer contradicts their personal beliefs of righteousness. Just because everyone thinks that god has to be righteous and yet god might do bad things doesn't mean that god doesn't exist. Over all, what I mean to say is that even though certain parts of a religion may be able to be proven false, that doesn't automatically give evidence that everything else must be false.

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Old 06-9-2007, 05:01 PM   #94
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by purebloodtexan View Post
So the point is, Hayate, that your friend has basically given no proof that a deity, and the belief of a deity or deities is purely based on faith. Can we prove that he exists? No. Can we prove that he doesn't? No. Can we change the way that millions or possibly billions of people live their lives? No.

Just because your cousin's statement sounds intelligent (to you, atleast) doesn't mean that it is intelligent.

There are two ways you might be able to change our minds just a little bit:
-Tell us how your cousin proved that there is a god. In fact, do YOU understand this at all? If not, why did you post this?
-Arrange a visit with God (Whether spiritually or him visiting your house) and tell him to bring from heaven the following items:
a) a harp
b) a tuft of hair from his beard
c) a yo-yo
OK, He proved a god using Einsteins theory for one. Plus, you your self could look up proof, and from the looks of it, no one has.

The second way that you said is invalid, and considered blasphemy in my religion. You expect me to bring forth a celestial being down onto earth when he is not supposed to interfere with humans? Ha, nice try smart one. Not going to happen.

Why don't we actually act smart and put forward some intelligence people?

And by the way, wikipedia is a COMMUNITY based encyclopedia. You have to actually look. Me? I have to study, so I will return later to see if anyone intelligent actually did something.
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:04 PM   #95
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
How is it meaningless?
Well, as he said:
Quote:
God is said to be all good, all loving, all forgiving, etc. God created Hell, therefore God cannot be all good, and if God is not all good, God cannot be God. Therefore, God does not exist.
Premise one: God is said to be all good, all loving, all forgiving etc.
Premise two: God created hell (Implicit in this is that hell is not good)
Conclusion: God cannot be Good
Corollary: Since God -is- Good, and God cannot be Good, God cannot be God
Conclusion: Therefore God does not exist

I find premise one faulty: Just because "some people" say that God possesses those characteristics doesn't mean he does. As a statement, it is unsupported hearsay, and since the statement doesn't represent provable truth, proceeding on the basis of its veracity seems foolish. (Argumentum Ad Populum: 'Everybody knows God is good')

I find premise two faulty: God is in fact -only said- to have created hell, and any definition we have as to what hell is like, and whether it is good or bad is also hearsay, even more unsupported because nobody has ever provably gone to hell and come back to make a valid report. (Argumentum Ad Populum again: 'Everybody knows hell is bad')

The first conclusion, that since God is good, and hell is bad, God cannot be good: I find that reasoning faulty. Even on earth, we see cases where people are punished "for their own good" and do not condemn their parents/lawgivers etc etc as evil simply because they've engaged in an action that the recipiant finds -undesireable- if I don't like eating vegetables, being forced to eat vegetables seems 'not good' to me, but clearly my dietary needs strongly reccomend I do so, and so being made to do so is actually to my benefit even though I personally disagree with the directive.

The corollary to the conclusion: Since god is good (not proven by this logic) and god cannot be good (not proven by this logic) god therefore cannot be god is faulty because it rests on unproven premesis.

The final conclusion that therefore, God does not exist is faulty. It requires us (In the midst of a proof of the nonexistance of God, no less) to simply -grant- that God is good simply because people say so, that Hell is bad simply because people say so, and that it is impossible for a good god to do a not good thing, simply because people say so.
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:04 PM   #96
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayatewillown View Post
OK, He proved a god using Einsteins theory for one. Plus, you your self could look up proof, and from the looks of it, no one has.

The second way that you said is invalid, and considered blasphemy in my religion. You expect me to bring forth a celestial being down onto earth when he is not supposed to interfere with humans? Ha, nice try smart one. Not going to happen.

Why don't we actually act smart and put forward some intelligence people?

And by the way, wikipedia is a COMMUNITY based encyclopedia. You have to actually look. Me? I have to study, so I will return later to see if anyone intelligent actually did something.
Alright then. Since you seem to understand it, tell me how Einstein's theory (Which Jewpin even explains that it's been improved on) proves the existence of a higher calling.

If he's not supposed to interfere with human affairs, then explain the concept of miracles to me.

And tell me what your comment on Wikipedia has to do with any of this. You can read Wikipedia and still be as dumb as a bad hammer.

Go ahead. Prove us wrong.
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:15 PM   #97
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by purebloodtexan View Post
Alright then. Since you seem to understand it, tell me how Einstein's theory (Which Jewpin even explains that it's been improved on) proves the existence of a higher calling.

If he's not supposed to interfere with human affairs, then explain the concept of miracles to me.

And tell me what your comment on Wikipedia has to do with any of this. You can read Wikipedia and still be as dumb as a bad hammer.

Go ahead. Prove us wrong.
Miracles were performed by Jesus ( In Christianity if anyone cares ). Jesus was the son of god, and therefore, they were the same person. For more info, god and Jesus are the same. After Jesus was crucified, he opened the way to heaven AND hell. After that, god was not supposed to interfere with humans.

In other words, even though Jesus was a part of god, Jesus sought wisdom through god, which would clarify on the father to son relationship. God did not completely control Jesus, otherwise he wouldn't of had to seek wisdom through god.

And Pure, who's "us"? Not everyone in the forums believes the same beliefs you do, or fully agrees with you. So "us" is invalid.

Oh, and the miracles were performed by the power of god given to Jesus. Jesus would pray to god to help him perform these miracles, and in Jerusalem, the stories of the miracles still remain there. It's obvious that it is not propaganda, because many of the bloodlines have people that had seen the miracles performed.

And for the person that said that since god created hell, he is not entirely good...

Thats a lie. He created hell because the archangel Lucifer wanted his own heaven and even attempted to overthrow god.
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:17 PM   #98
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayatewillown View Post
Miracles were performed by Jesus ( In Christianity if anyone cares ).
Prove it.

Quote:
After Jesus was crucified, he opened the way to heaven AND hell. After that, god was not supposed to interfere with humans.
And yet being responsible for a number of miracles is -required- to become a saint...and there are a -lot- of people who have been canonized in the history of the church...so where are those miracles coming from?

Quote:
Oh, and the miracles were performed by the power of god given to Jesus. Jesus would pray to god to help him perform these miracles, and in Jerusalem, the stories of the miracles still remain there. It's obvious that it is not propaganda, because many of the bloodlines have people that had seen the miracles performed.
Um...so if my great great great great grandfather passed down the story that he personally saw someone who built a ladder that reached to the moon, and discovered that it was made of cheese; simply because the bloodline of the person persists makes his story completely true?
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:22 PM   #99
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayatewillown View Post
Miracles were performed by Jesus ( In Christianity if anyone cares ). Jesus was the son of god, and therefore, they were the same person. For more info, god and Jesus are the same. After Jesus was crucified, he opened the way to heaven AND hell. After that, god was not supposed to interfere with humans.

In other words, even though Jesus was a part of god, Jesus sought wisdom through god, which would clarify on the father to son relationship. God did not completely control Jesus, otherwise he wouldn't of had to seek wisdom through god.

And Pure, who's "us"? Not everyone in the forums believes the same beliefs you do, or fully agrees with you. So "us" is invalid.

Oh, and the miracles were performed by the power of god given to Jesus. Jesus would pray to god to help him perform these miracles, and in Jerusalem, the stories of the miracles still remain there. It's obvious that it is not propaganda, because many of the bloodlines have people that had seen the miracles performed.

And for the person that said that since god created hell, he is not entirely good...

Thats a lie. He created hell because the archangel Lucifer wanted his own heaven and even attempted to overthrow god.
Since you seemed to emphasize Wikipedia earlier, let's have a look at "miracle."

Quote:
A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful", is a striking interposition of divine intervention by a god in the universe by which the ordinary course and operation of Nature is overruled, suspended, or modified.
So yes, God can supposedly get into human affairs.

And you still haven't explained to me how your friend proves the presence of a higher calling using Einstein's theory.
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Old 06-9-2007, 05:38 PM   #100
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
I find premise one faulty: Just because "some people" say that God possesses those characteristics doesn't mean he does. As a statement, it is unsupported hearsay, and since the statement doesn't represent provable truth, proceeding on the basis of its veracity seems foolish. (Argumentum Ad Populum: 'Everybody knows God is good')
Um, we're talking about religion here. The only support that can be given for premises is textual, and since it is reasonable, even virtually universal, to argue that the bible states God is good, it doesn't seem to be a bad premise to start with, whether or not lots of people agree with it or not.

Quote:
I find premise two faulty: God is in fact -only said- to have created hell, and any definition we have as to what hell is like, and whether it is good or bad is also hearsay, even more unsupported because nobody has ever provably gone to hell and come back to make a valid report. (Argumentum Ad Populum again: 'Everybody knows hell is bad')
Again arguing textually. According to the bible people have gone to hell and come back. The bible also gives descriptions of hell. While it is possible to contextualize the bible in a way that makes hell seem not evil, it's a reasonable and common argument that hell is evil.

Quote:
The first conclusion, that since God is good, and hell is bad, God cannot be good: I find that reasoning faulty. Even on earth, we see cases where people are punished "for their own good" and do not condemn their parents/lawgivers etc etc as evil simply because they've engaged in an action that the recipiant finds -undesireable- if I don't like eating vegetables, being forced to eat vegetables seems 'not good' to me, but clearly my dietary needs strongly reccomend I do so, and so being made to do so is actually to my benefit even though I personally disagree with the directive.
You're saying that there is some objective form of "good" which human beings are generally incapable of recognizing and God is capable of recognizing. This is a reasonable premise, however from this standpoint following the classical problem of evil, you would effectively be saying that all things considered evil in the world are actually good. Now, do you really want to argue that the holocaust was good? Or rape? Or war? That is a solution to the problem of evil, just not a very popular one.

Quote:
The corollary to the conclusion: Since god is good and god cannot be good god therefore cannot be god is faulty because it rests on unproven premesis.
Your entire field is unprovable. Rely on the validity of logic as your guide, not the provability of any statement.

Quote:
The final conclusion that therefore, God does not exist is faulty. It requires us (In the midst of a proof of the nonexistance of God, no less) to simply -grant- that God is good simply because people say so, that Hell is bad simply because people say so, and that it is impossible for a good god to do a not good thing, simply because people say so.
You employ the tools of a skeptic with about the accuracy of a sawed-off shotgun. The bible is presumed to be the evidence, so these statements are presumed to have basis through authoritative text. Now, yes you can doubt the bible. However, if you're actually arguing theology instead of simply rejecting the entire field of theology, it's best not to argue in the way you are doing.
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