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Old 07-27-2007, 02:23 PM   #321
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach
]I was specifically talking about creationists. 'religious people' don't inherently fit what devonin was talking about, but to classify as a creationist you have to not believe in evolution. The whole intelligent design movement was religion in disguise. It was created by creationists to try and get creation into the school system by making it sound like science. It has nothing to do with moderately religious individuals such as yourself.
Intelligent Design != Religion in disguise
Intelligent Design != Disbelief in Evolution
Intelligent Design != Universally Religious

I'm not religious, I do believe in the theory of evolution, and I am a deist, which is a system that supports the concept of intelligent design. Deism is not an especially theistic system, and comes nowhere -near- to being a religion.

Not all religious people denounce evolution. Evolution is perfectly able to coexist with creationism, provided your creationism is rational, scientific and not based solely around teachings of a religion.
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:47 PM   #322
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Default Re: God.

At that point though your creationism is a redundant and unnecessary component. Occam's Razor to the rescue!
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:47 PM   #323
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Default Re: God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

Here you go.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:10 PM   #324
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by Tails99 View Post
And the site that comes from.

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

Their videos use such basic logic to disprove the existence of god, that sometimes it seems a little silly. The proofs are also basic.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:36 PM   #325
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
At that point though your creationism is a redundant and unnecessary component. Occam's Razor to the rescue!
You can believe that some outside force was required to start the system in motion, and I don't feel that to be redundant and unnecessary, because to me it is far simpler that such constants as needed to be exactly what they were in order for anything we know to exist were made that way, rather than were random out of the nigh infinite number of possible combinations.

Edit: its funny how people will look at the "747 in a bag" argument and say "No way it could happen randomly, the only reasonable explanation is that an outside force acted on the parts and built it" but when you extend the analogy to the entire universe, the same people say "No way, it was totally a bag that got shaken" and nobody seems keen to carry on the conclusion they once said was logical, that an outside force acted on the parts and built it.

Last edited by devonin; 07-27-2007 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:25 PM   #326
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Default Re: God.

Who knows, maybe we are all just people inside of an atom sized universe created by some mad scientist to test our intelligence, now I like that theory.

Whether or not he does exist or not, I believe some outer force influenced the big bang thus creating life.
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Old 07-28-2007, 01:41 AM   #327
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
You can believe that some outside force was required to start the system in motion, and I don't feel that to be redundant and unnecessary, because to me it is far simpler that such constants as needed to be exactly what they were in order for anything we know to exist were made that way, rather than were random out of the nigh infinite number of possible combinations.
Is causality really random? I don't think it is. I also think anyone who would choose a convenient, unfalsifiable explanation over even the most indirect instrumentalists attitude has little position to claim science as a fundamental aspect of their world view.

Quote:
Edit: its funny how people will look at the "747 in a bag" argument and say "No way it could happen randomly, the only reasonable explanation is that an outside force acted on the parts and built it" but when you extend the analogy to the entire universe, the same people say "No way, it was totally a bag that got shaken" and nobody seems keen to carry on the conclusion they once said was logical, that an outside force acted on the parts and built it.
If anyone does that it's a shame; the analogy doesn't work on either side. A scientist and professor gave a lecture on public access the other day, where she pointed out quite succinctly the problem with any inference of design. Basically, someone had constructed a flow chart which stated:

1. Observe unexplained pattern
2. Is it complex? What order of complexity is it? Low, medium, or high?

If high, does it show signs of order? If yes, it was designed.

The problem is that the flow chart can't be made functional without another option. To demonstrate, think about the a pair of individuals who come across fairy rings in the 14th century. Are the rings unexplained and complex? Of course, they showed up overnight! Are they ordered? Yes, they are in a circle. And as 14th century people we know quite clearly what causes fairy rings and why they exist.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:52 AM   #328
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by Rhapsodic Truth View Post
Everyone interested in this topic should read: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

It discusses clearly how both the thoughts of God and Science are flawed, so inevitably, no one is right. Science is thought, just as much as God is. We cannot see the laws of Science, we cannot see the law of gravity. That is the same as not being able to see a divine being, but who is to say it does not exist? Gravity will be there whether we believe it is or not. As God may be too.

This is a short response. Sorry for any errors.
There's a big difference between the force of gravity (something that never fails to work) and God (some invisible thing floating out in space with with the power to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING possible, but chooses to spend its time watching people masturbate and sending homosexuals to hell).
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:07 AM   #329
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Default Re: God.

Those are all wise words, everyone, but what if.. You're your own God. You yourself makes your own life, and your actions decide your future. Not some outerworldly force.
Think about that.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:33 AM   #330
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Default Re: God.

God wont exist until you step towards him in faith. Faith is not something that can be truely understood through purely logical thought.

In my opinon this thread is just a load of Religion vs Science and God cant be truely found in eithier.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:40 AM   #331
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp View Post
God wont exist until you step towards him in faith. Faith is not something that can be truely understood through purely logical thought.

In my opinon this thread is just a load of Religion vs Science and God cant be truely found in eithier.
While that might be true, that would exist in the sole believer. The believer would blindly have faith so much, that God would be existent, to them, and only them.
Maybe what it all comes down to is what you individually think.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:52 AM   #332
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by ShadowBlink View Post
While that might be true, that would exist in the sole believer. The believer would blindly have faith so much, that God would be existent, to them, and only them.
Thats why Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:16 AM   #333
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp View Post
Thats why Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus
I find that Christianity asks for a lot more than faith.
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:42 AM   #334
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBlink View Post
I find that Christianity asks for a lot more than faith.
Real Christianity is just a relationship with Jesus. All the things you have "found" are derivatives of that or false.

(This is swinging off the OP's main thread point feel free to tell me to stop.)
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:29 AM   #335
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Intelligent Design != Religion in disguise
Intelligent Design != Disbelief in Evolution
Intelligent Design != Universally Religious
There are basically two groups of intelligent designers. I am well aware of the group that support intelligent design and do not associate themselves with creationists...but the initial intelligent design was a (biblical) creationist movement.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I guess it's just a misunderstanding. You're more or less referring to the concept, which would put you in the non creationist group. I'm more or less referring to the *very* large sect of the intelligent design movement that has a creationist agenda. Biblical creation failed in and around the early 80's to get into the education system and thus spawned intelligent design. It is, at heart, an attempt to stir up the pot among the public and try to make creation sound like it's science.

That's all. Sorry for confusion.

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Evolution is perfectly able to coexist with creationism
Too bad just about all 'creationists' are biblical creationists, which is completely incompadible. At least in america anyway. It's a little different in Canada. People that attempt to fuse creation with evolution are rarely religious (though I suppose there are some here)...I don't think they can afford to be if they're going to make a logical approach to theology without having it clouded by dogma.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:02 AM   #336
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
There are basically two groups of intelligent designers. I am well aware of the group that support intelligent design and do not associate themselves with creationists...but the initial intelligent design was a creationist movement.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I guess it's just a misunderstanding. You're more or less referring to the concept, which would put you in the non creationist group. I'm more or less referring to the *very* large sect of the intelligent design movement that has a creationist agenda. That's all. Sorry for confusion.



Too bad just about all 'creationists' are biblical creationists, which is completely incompadible. At least in america anyway. It's a little different in Canada.
Canada Also has a French government and just like the French, they are cowards.
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:09 PM   #337
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Default Re: God.

That sounds like a breach of this warning to me.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:57 PM   #338
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Default Re: God.

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Originally Posted by ShadowBlink View Post
Those are all wise words, everyone, but what if.. You're your own God. You yourself makes your own life, and your actions decide your future. Not some outerworldly force.
Think about that.
That's just it. That's exactly how I feel. No matter how big of a force (even some super natural being like god) probably can't govern how I want to act. I have my own individuality which allows me to possibly defy a god even if I was easily sent to some place like hell. Anyone can choose to accept help from some "outerworldly force", but this idea of being a slave to anything like that is probably not what I along with many other people would like. Search your minds for a new religion I like to call individuality and logic.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:58 PM   #339
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Default Re: God.

You will find very few people who are reasonable about their religion who would ever classify themselves as being "slave to" their God. Christianity, as is the common choice of religion for this forum to discuss has no problem whatsoever acknowledging that you have the power to defy God, that you have free will and individuality. In fact, the practice of that free will is integral to their faith system.
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Old 08-2-2007, 09:56 PM   #340
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Default Re: God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewpinthethird View Post
There's a big difference between the force of gravity (something that never fails to work) and God (some invisible thing floating out in space with with the power to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING possible, but chooses to spend its time watching people masturbate and sending homosexuals to hell).
It seems like everyone here thinks they have their god concept down to a science, so I'm not going to argue. I'm going to state a fact:

You have no real evidence of the source of gravity (which is supposedly matter, but how does that theorically true for all things?), and you have no evidence there is anti-matter (the opposite of gravity, for those of you who haven't taken a physics class). So you can't disprove the idea of God all together. The IDEA of gravity is consistent on this planet, in this galaxy, but who says it still works outside of the milky way, or off the planet?

Theory.
"Science."
Isn't "science" the same as "God"? You can't be completely sure of either. You can only prove your theories and test a hypothesis on THIS planet, as far as I have seen. You can trust what people tell you and what you learn. You can't ever really be sure of either.

There's plenty of evidence supporting God as there is supporting Science.

And your idea, concept, conviction of god is as childish as they come, but I'm not going to be a jerk, so I accept your opinions.
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