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Old 05-13-2007, 10:29 AM   #101
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Originally Posted by Nezeru View Post
I'm not failing to tell people this. I'm just saying that carbon dioxide levels have been far higher today. And temperatures were far higher.
So you do think global warming is happening? I'm confused. Your essay appeared to argue we didn't know nearly enough, but if CO2 was higher and temperatures were higher then there is no argument against CO2 raising the temperature.



Quote:
Also, termites produce more methane than people.
No they do not. I just did some reasearch and came to conclude termites produce at best 4% of global methane emissions and humans produce about 60%.

Quote:
And about water vapor, higher temperatures mean more water vapor, so more clouds = more cooling? Actually, these effects are unclear.

Water vapor (according to most studies I've read) is responsible for approximately 70% of the greenhouse effect that keeps our planet in a survivable temperature range.
I'm curious as to how these effects are unclear given we have understood the water cycle for quite some time. Sure, the effects of more water vapor can be complicated...

Water vapor makes up a decent chunk of the worlds greenhouse gas. However, it doesn't have much of anything to do with global warming.



Talisman brought up most of the other things I would have said >__>
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:55 AM   #102
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Is global warming real?


Yes. The National Academies of Science, an independent research panel created by Congress, reported last year that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years. Evidence shows that many locations were warmer during the past 25 years than during any other 25-year period since 900.



How do we know that?


The evidence comes from tree rings, boreholes, retreating glaciers, corals, ocean and lake sediments, ice cores, cave deposits and other "proxies" of past surface temperatures. In central England, there are written temperature records going back to 1659, and they show 2006 as the warmest year ever in that region.



For heaven's sake, baseball games were snowed out this month. How can the globe be getting warmer?


Short spans of time say nothing about global warming. For example, winter temperatures across the United States were average, but the average temperature across the globe was the highest on record, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Overall, the global mean temperature has increased about 0.4 degrees F over the past 25 years, and it's projected to rise 3 to 7 degrees F over the next century. Some areas are warming up faster than others. The arctic surface air temperatures are warming roughly twice as fast as the global average, according to NOAA.



Is this merely a natural cycle or are there human causes?

It's us. The National Academies reported in 2001 that this big warming trend is "a result of human activities." A U.N. group, the International Panel on Climate Change, came to the same conclusion. Among the other groups that agree: the American Meteorological Society, the American Geophysical Union and the American Association for the Advancement of Science.



Why should I care?


The U.N. group says that global warming will cause species extinctions to mount, water shortages to spread and droughts and floods to become more frequent. There may be more pollen allergies, mosquito-borne diseases and heat-stroke deaths. Hurricanes will begin to hit Florida like we're a pin in the world's most popular bowling alley. The insurance companies are already factoring that into their rates. And as the polar ice caps melt, the seas rise - a reasonable estimate is 20 inches by 2100 - which ought to concern people who live in a state nearly surrounded by water.


What's causing this?


Mostly it's carbon dioxide (CO2). Since the Industrial Revolution of the 1700s, we've been putting out way too much of it, and it's collecting in the atmosphere, trapping the sun's heat like the glass roof of a greenhouse. In 2005, global atmospheric concentrations of CO2 were 35 percent higher than they were before the Industrial Revolution.



What are the biggest sources?


The United States produces more carbon dioxide than any other nation, mostly from coal-burning power plants (40 percent) and passenger vehicles (20 percent), according to the Environmental Protection Agency. U.S. greenhouse gas emissions linked to global warming increased 16 percent over the most recent 15-year period, the EPA reported last week.



What is the government doing about this?


According to the U.S. Supreme Court and several states, not enough. Massachusetts sued the EPA for refusing to regulate carbon dioxide emissions under the Clean Air Act. The EPA argued it lacked the authority, but the Supreme Court ruled that its excuses were "arbitrary, capricious, and otherwise not in accordance with law." Meanwhile, California, which produces more carbon dioxide than some countries, passed its own law requiring major industrial producers of such gases to reduce emissions 25 percent by 2020. Other states have imposed similar caps.



Won't anything we do be offset by other countries?


That's President Bush's argument for opposing the Kyoto treaty calling for mandatory emissions cutbacks: It exempts 80 percent of the world, including major population centers such as China and India, from compliance. Instead he has called for voluntary emissions controls. China is set to overtake the United States as the biggest source of greenhouse gases, possibly as early as this year. Last week Reuters reported that China's leaders have finally proposed a plan to cut carbon emissions by 40 percent by 2020 - but like Bush, they're still resisting mandatory controls. Columnist Thomas Friedman, in a New York Times Magazine piece (nytimes.com), says alternative energy sources become viable in the developing world only when they match the "China price." That "is basically the price China pays for coal-fired electricity today because China is not prepared to pay a premium now, and sacrifice growth and stability, just to get rid of the CO2 that comes from burning coal."
"The 'China price' is the fundamental benchmark that everyone is looking to satisfy," Curtis Carlson, CEO of SRI International, which is developing alternative energy technologies, told Friedman. (SRI has opened a branch in St. Petersburg.) "We have an enormous amount of new innovation we must put in place before we can get to a price that China and India will be able to pay. But this is also an opportunity."



Is there some way to give everyone an incentive to produce less carbon dioxide?


Yes, but if you had trouble grappling with the IRS last week, this proposal may leave you feeling hot under the collar. Some experts are touting a "carbon tax" as the ideal solution to reducing emissions.
"A carbon tax would be paid whenever a molecule of carbon dioxide is emitted to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels," wrote William Schlesinger, dean of the Nicholas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences at Duke University.


"Utilities would pay it based on their smokestack emissions and pass the cost to consumers in their monthly electric bill. Each of us would pay it when we fill up with gasoline, based on the content of fossil carbon in the fuel."


By taxing carbon emissions, proponents argue, the government would make other forms of energy more competitive on price.



Has anything like this ever worked before?


Sort of. A scheme was created years ago for trading in the pollution that causes acid rain. While acid rain hasn't gone away, it isn't the looming crisis it was 20 years ago. Rather than a carbon tax, the government could create "offsets," which cap emissions at a certain level and allow a cleaner factory to sell its pollution credits - in effect, sell the pollution it is not creating to a company that isn't clean enough yet and will pay for the right to pollute. Those offsets are bought and sold on an open market.



Are there any political advantages in trying to tackle global warming?


Sure. As Friedman points out, if we wean ourselves off those fossil fuels that produce greenhouse gases, we will be cutting off the flow of money to hostile states that rely on oil revenues. And the U.S. economy could benefit from creating new markets for high-tech green solutions.


Sources

Further reading


The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report is at www.ipcc.ch.
Some sizable reading material there...
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:10 PM   #103
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

I dont believe in global warming one bit I truly think the earth is moving closer to the sun because think about it what are the chances our orbit is a PERFECT circle?? and plus according to the laws of gravity the bigger the mass the more gravity it has so shouldent we constanally be getting closer to the sun which is like 5000000 times bigger than the earth?? and then i also think the reason for all this "freak" weather is our moon acctuall getting closer ergo screwing up the tides
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:20 PM   #104
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
So you do think global warming is happening? I'm confused. Your essay appeared to argue we didn't know nearly enough, but if CO2 was higher and temperatures were higher then there is no argument against CO2 raising the temperature.
I'm just going to let you read that until you figure out what's wrong with your logic.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:25 PM   #105
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

EDIT: fuccen ninja'd.

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Originally Posted by flcliscool View Post
I dont believe in global warming one bit I truly think the earth is moving closer to the sun because think about it what are the chances our orbit is a PERFECT circle?? and plus according to the laws of gravity the bigger the mass the more gravity it has so shouldent we constanally be getting closer to the sun which is like 5000000 times bigger than the earth?? and then i also think the reason for all this "freak" weather is our moon acctuall getting closer ergo screwing up the tides
Bad science sense... TINGLING!

Our orbit is far from circular; we've known that for hundreds of years. There are great differences between the Earth's apogee and perigee, but that has absolutely nothing to do with global warming.

No, we shouldn't be getting closer to the moon, as our extremely fast orbital motion is constantly trying to throw us out of orbit; the sun's gravitational pull is the only thing keeping us where we are.

Also, the moon is moving AWAY from Earth. Once it gets too far away, Earth is doomed, so you've got more to worry about there than how close we are to the sun.

Really now, on what are you basing these ridiculously wrong opinions?

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She has an asshole, in other pics you can see a diaper taped to her dead twin's back.
Sentences I thought I never would have to type.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:51 PM   #106
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach
So you do think global warming is happening? I'm confused. Your essay appeared to argue we didn't know nearly enough, but if CO2 was higher and temperatures were higher then there is no argument against CO2 raising the temperature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezeru View Post
I'm just going to let you read that until you figure out what's wrong with your logic.
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is lots of fun.
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:06 PM   #107
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

Nezeru just state your position.

Also, if anyone really wants to refute global warming, then refute this:

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:25 PM   #108
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Originally Posted by talisman View Post
Nezeru just state your position.

Also, if anyone really wants to refute global warming, then refute this:

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
I've been looking for that link.

EDIT: If you watch Forecast Earth on The Weather Channel, they occasionally talk about global warming and how you can help.

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Old 05-13-2007, 02:28 PM   #109
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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I've been looking for that link.
Fantastic.

Quit posting off-topic.

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Old 05-13-2007, 02:29 PM   #110
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is lots of fun.
My argument is that he has no argument against global warming. How is this false cause. He's just beating around the bush, like most people, and this is half the problem.

Not to mention this should be a scientific debate, not a logical one. Most people here are completely ignoring the science that shows that global warming is a real problem.

Either way, his statement that CO2 levels have been higher in the past is a dirty argument. You're only telling people half the story...the half that is convincing.
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Old 05-14-2007, 05:57 PM   #111
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
My argument is that he has no argument against global warming. How is this false cause. He's just beating around the bush, like most people, and this is half the problem.

Not to mention this should be a scientific debate, not a logical one. Most people here are completely ignoring the science that shows that global warming is a real problem.

Either way, his statement that CO2 levels have been higher in the past is a dirty argument. You're only telling people half the story...the half that is convincing.

And you're doing any differently? My comment that CO2 levels were higher in the past is true and ignored by the vast majority of people. My real point is that nobody knows how much of the present warming trend is natural and how much is caused by man, and that we need to do more research in climate.

Also, about the IPCC link posted earlier, that has been discussed and refutations of points have been published in numerous scientific journals. I'll post links when I find them.
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Old 05-15-2007, 12:40 PM   #112
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

Watch this and tell me ur still not convinced that global warming is just a scam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62022478442170
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:20 PM   #113
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

Ah, yes, clearly watching that video has me completely convinced.

Honestly, you can't cite one reference as the defining argument for either side.

However, the video is very interesting. =) It expresses many of the same points that I outlined in earlier posts.
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:37 PM   #114
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

I know that I have said that I wouldn't post in the critical section because whatever I "rant" would lead to me getting banned for life. However, since a few people are interested in how my "antireligious" views come into play with global warming, I will make it clear. I'm sure that many of you are familiar with Al Gore's Inconvenient truth right? When I saw that movie in my government class, I asked about what controversies there were. From reading about environmental policy, I knew that automobile industries might get mad from adjusting their ways (a little common sense might I add). People like the environment, but not enough to change their lifestyle. I really don't like people who stand against environmentalists and even my teacher and book said "It is a foolish politican who today opposes environmentalism," but I can tolerate them enough because they have a legitimate arguement where maybe global warming just may not be as important as money (not to say I agree with that at all). This is quite a natural dispute between activists and conservatives, but as soon as my teacher told me about another controversy, I became sickened. He said that he wouldn't let his child see Al Gore's movie unless the schools showed the "other side". This "other side" was that the world would end in seven years, Christians would go to heaven, and that it wouldn't matter if we pollute the world. Honestly, how ignorant can man be? That's where they cross my line and partially turn me into an "antireligious" person who "rants". I mean I asked my teacher what would happen if this "other side" never proved to be right in seven years and he replies that they will simply reschedule the dates. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate everyone or their religious ideas since I believe there is an equal chance for all possibilities to occur. In this case, the most reasonable thing to do would be to not pollute or limit pollution in the environment because reguardless of whether any belief of the world ending is right or wrong, these people cannot lose anything by being a bit more caring for our environment unless they believe it's too costly.

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Old 05-16-2007, 03:43 PM   #115
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

You're completely ignoring the factual, non-industry-based debates.

In the aforementioned video on Google, 14:20-14:50 for anyone who's saying water vapor isn't an important greenhouse gas.
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:51 PM   #116
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

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No, you don't.

The Earth will go on with or without us; it's just a ball of rock and water. Lots of life could suffer, but not all. Life will continue even if humanity DOES wipe itself off the earth.

@Xack: I did the same thing with the "Stop genocide in Africa" group.

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I dont think the earth will ever die until the sun or something swallows it up. Once we do enough to the earth that it kills us off it will probably stabalize itself again.

Also i know what you mean about christians faster. I hate how they think if they admit they did something wrong that it makes it better.

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Old 05-16-2007, 04:01 PM   #117
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

I'm sick and tired of all this god damn cherrypicking going on in the global warming debate. Obviously, both sides can sit back and pick apart whatever graphs they want to choose to use on their side because there is so much data available. What's that, our model doesn't fit on this temperature model? Well damn, better try another one. That's the kind of cherrypicking that's going on in both The Great Swindle and An Inconvenient Truth as well as a lot of the crap that's being tossed around by academia as well.

We're sitting here and trying to pick apart an intricate chain of causality by throwing trying to pin everything back to the stupidly fallibe concept of a single root cause.. Since we're obviously caught in a loop of misleading graphs and politically charged diatribes from both sides of the field, I think we should just take a more pragmatic approach:

Reduce our CO2 emissions, be conscious of our pollution, etc.... If global warming continues to rise oh well we weren't right now were we. If it stops, good, we're doing the right thing.

Maybe if we stop sitting back on our thrones arguing cause and purpose and instead actually test some of our hypotheses (which should be testable, after all we're making claims that these temperature rises are occuring with very short lag times based on CO2 emissions), we'll get somewhere besides this massively tangled loop of cherrypicking that everyone in this thread, the media, and the scientific community are doing.
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:20 PM   #118
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

I know that I have completely liberal and antireligious biased ideas, but I agree that the only way to really know this global warming issue is to take action and see what happens. I mean isn't that what scientists do? Sure they calculate all of these graphs about CO2 levels rising and who/what causes pollution which may or may not be true, but they could also test whether or not by actually taking action, we are doing something right as aperson said above me. However, I would like to include why I don't agree with conservatives who tend to raise scary statements about the economic pain an American cut in greenhouse gasses will cause. We can always take the chance of being poor as heck because we know that America has what it takes to get out of any depressions, which everyone knows has happened, but we can't take the chance of dying to catastrophic conditions.
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:22 PM   #119
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

Master_of_the_Faster, there is no evidence that catastrophic conditions are in any way imminent, and evidence points to us having little to no control over it anyway.
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:28 PM   #120
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Default Re: Global Warming:Real or Fake?

What evidence? Show us the evidence that says that our action now will have no effect on future warming.
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