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Old 04-13-2007, 06:34 AM   #21
Wlfwnd91
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Default Re: Being saved

There are some places that will baptize you more than once, but it's more of a comfort thing to the person being baptized. As Guido said, it's to get rid of the Original Sin which we are all born with because of Adam and Eve and doesn't really count for anything after that.

However, Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, and the bible does state that if you truly repent with all your heart and give yourself over to the lord then all of your sins shall be forgiven, and technically if you do truly accept Jesus and his teachings then you won't go out murdering people, and if you did go out murdering people and were truly sorry and asked the Lord for forgiveness then it's said that he would forgive you (If I recall though, I believe Slipstrike said this didn't apply to the mormon sect of Christianity? If you stop by Slip could you give another view on that from your area of expertise?) But, that is what the bible states. There's a lot of different scenarios that can take place.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Being saved

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And as to saying that the book of Ecclesiastes that you claim is not divinely inspired...I direct you to

2Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God, Beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness.
-5 points, petitio principii. Care to try again without circular logic?
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Being saved

Ok, I only read the first post, but I am going to post my opinion on this.

You are correct; there are Christians, like myself, who only believe in Heaven and Hell. Well, from what i was taught, only those who follow the word of Jesus Christ will be admitted into Heaven. All others, who don't, will be sent to Hell. I once asked my Pastor if unborn babies and newborn ones will go to Heaven or Hell if they die before they become baptized. He told me that, unfortunately, they would be condemned to Hell. This is a said, but according to the Bible, true fact. On your other point, I believe you basically asked, "Do your actions have anything to do with you getting into Heaven?" Then, the answer would in short be no. As long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ as the savior, then they will be admitted into Heaven. In the Bible, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, therefore, already paying for them for us in advance. If he wouldn't have died for us, then we would all go to hell because no one can follow all of the ten commandments perfectly, no one, except for, of course, Jesus. This is why we now follow the new testiment, after the death of Jesus, and in the Christian religion, we are just to try to follow the commandments as best we can, because it is known, like i said, that no one except Jesus can follow them perfectly.

As I said before, I am of the Lutheran religion. I attended confermation for 2 years, and have been confirmed, so I do know a little bit about my religion. I am not going to pretend to know everything about other religions such as Catholicism, who do in fact, believe in purgatory. So I honestly dont know their point of view on the matter.

Again, I only read the first post, so I appologize for anything that I said that has already been stated.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Being saved

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Originally Posted by Philpwnsyou View Post
How about, its called using the Bible to answer questions stemming from the Bible?
How about it's called begging the question, because your proof that the bible is valid is contained within the bible. As evidence, content in the bible is only valid if we've -already- concluded that the bible is valid.

You can't prove something by appealing to its own claims of being proven.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Being saved

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
How about it's called begging the question, because your proof that the bible is valid is contained within the bible. As evidence, content in the bible is only valid if we've -already- concluded that the bible is valid.

You can't prove something by appealing to its own claims of being proven.
It's a religious question and can't really be answered without using the bible, so we need to at least pretend that it's valid in this case. I just believe, however, that Ecclesiastes is not technically the word of God, however the memoirs and thoughts of "The Teacher" that God chose to include within the bible. However, to believe that the bible is 100% the word of God is pretty naive. Many missing books from the bible have been found throughout history that man has decided to ommit for whatever reasons.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: Being saved

I remember saying a relevant quote. It went something along the lines of:

Eskimo: If I didn't know about God, would I go to hell?
Christian Priest: No, you didn't know about the Gods or sins, you would not have went to hell.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

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WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Being saved

???
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Being saved

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It's a religious question and can't really be answered without using the bible, so we need to at least pretend that it's valid in this case.
If the only evidence you have of the bible's validity is that it says in the bible that the bible is valid, then by any reasonable standard of proof you actually have no proof whatsoever that the bible is valid.

You're welcome to believe it on faith all you like, in fact that's generally integral to being part of the religion, but you can't claim that you -know- the bible is valid with no valid evidence to support the claim.
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Being saved

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There are a plethora of sources and examples that prove the Bible's validity, and if its validity is proven, that Means it is to be taken as the Divinely inspired word of God, if that is the case everything it says is accurate.
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This is Just One example that shows the Bibles Authenticity and Prophetic Accuracy.
No, that's one example of historical records in the bible and historical records not in the bible matching actual historical events. That doesn't necessarily follow that therefore -ALL- of the bible is necessarily accurate OR that even if accurate, the words are divinely inspired.

I can write you a book, right now, that contains a -multitude- of correct statements about any number of topics, and also fill that exact same book with nonsense, lies and idiocy. Just because you can prove any number of things about it to be accurate does not mean it is -universally- accurate, and -definately- does not make it divinely inspired.

There appears to be some confusion going on at this stage of the thread as to "valid" and "true" and "factual" Within certain contexts, the bible is absolutely valid (Say, within the context of 'christian religious mythology') Since mythology inherantly contains some truth and some falsity, it us under a less strenuous burden of proof. This is why we can accept Homer's Odyssey as "valid" greek mythology, because it isn't pretending to be literal and factual truth.

But the context in which the validity of the bible is here being contested is that it is the literal and direct word of God. Even if every historical event described therein was proven to have happened, the best you can conclude from that is that the humans who physically wrote the bible were astute historians who did their research. I've yet to see any actual evidence presented that the Bible is the literal and direct word of God.

Let me ask you this: If everything the bible says is accurate and infallibly the direct word of God, do you submit to this forum that you follow every stricture and guideline, believe every statement of ethics and morality, and allow your life to be guided by each and every precept located therein?
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:10 AM   #30
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Default Re: Being saved

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Originally Posted by Philpwnsyou View Post
“The doctrine that the human soul is immortal and will continue to exist after man’s death and the dissolution of his body is one of the cornerstones of Christian philosophy and theology.”—“NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.”

THE above-quoted reference work, however, admits that “the notion of the soul surviving after death is not readily discernible in the Bible.” What, then, does the Bible really teach about what happens to the soul at death?

The Dead Are Unconscious

The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, “he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.

So the dead are unconscious, inactive. When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, God stated: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life, Adam did not exist. When he died, Adam returned to that state. His punishment was death—not a transfer to another realm.

The Soul Can Die

When Adam died, what happened to his soul? Well, in the Bible the word “soul” often simply refers to a person. So when we say that Adam died, we are saying that the soul named Adam died. This might sound unusual to a person who believes in the immortality of the soul. However, the Bible states: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) Leviticus 21:1 speaks of “a deceased soul” (a “corpse,” Jerusalem Bible). And Nazirites were told not to come near “any dead soul” (“a dead body,” Lamsa).—Numbers 6:6.

A similar reference to the soul is found at 1 Kings 19:4. A severely distressed Elijah “began to ask that his soul might die.” Likewise, Jonah “kept asking that his soul might die, and he repeatedly said: ‘My dying off is better than my being alive.’” (Jonah 4:8) And Jesus used the phrase “to kill a soul,” which The Bible in Basic English renders “to put to death.” (Mark 3:4) So the death of the soul simply means the death of the person.


And as to saying that the book of Ecclesiastes that you claim is not divinely inspired...I direct you to

2Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God, Beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness.

It clearly says there ALL scripture, not the gospel and some of the psalms or any other arrangement..ALL.

If you believe in GOD (YHWH), then you believe that he created all things, the sun, the earth, Our incredibly complex body and so many countless wonderful an awesome things. If he made all of this don't you think he has the power to preserve his word through the ages?
Alright, well the "death of the soul" in my interpretation merely suggests losing the holy ghost. You gain the power of the holy ghost after baptism. It helps guide and direct you in a righteous manner but if you arent listening for it then you can easily ignore the holy ghost. Eventually if you continuously living unrighteously then the holy ghost will leave you basically meaning spiritual death.

About baptisms in general i would say that mormon belief is that if a child is killed before the age of 8 (the age at which you are baptized) then you will go directly to the celestial kingdom (refer to my last post).

Also, the "original sin" which is usually called the fall of adam or the sin of eve is different from my perspective. There is a religion i heard of that basically hates eve for committing the sin of eating from the forbidden fruit. However, God told adam that he shall not eat of the fruit UNTIL God told them it was ok because eating it will grant mortality which is what was intended all along. So the only reason it was a sin was because eve impatient and ate it before having permission to do so. It has also been said that if satan knew that tempting eve to take of the fruit would continue Gods plan then he would have simply let them stay in the garden where they could not reproduce. Finally, there are many accounts where Joseph Smith actually met Adams spirit which would prove that his spirit did live on.

In the mormon church you can get baptized twice if you get excommunicated and eventually go through the repentence processes to rejoin the church.

One more thing, i have been taught that Jesus died on the cross for our sins like you said but it only meant that now we could repent for it. Before this time many people (in order to repent) would have to sacrifice animals and now there is a much easier way. I'm not quite sure but i also think that even after the sacrifice could the people enter into the kingdom of heaven because only through the sacrifice of the son of God would you be able to come into heaven unblemished by sin.

Finally, it says that murder is almost unforgivable (if not entirely from what i remember). However, God looks into your heart at your intentions and because he is all knowing he will know if you had some kind of mental imbalance that caused it. People who suffer from these kinds of things are somewhat exempt (so to say) in the extreme cases because it says that the mentally handicapped will (just like the under 8 year old) be automatically accepted into the celestial kingdom. Now dont take this wrong because just because you think someone will be exempt doesnt mean they will given that it is up to God to pass judgment. Along those same lines though, suicide is very close to murder because you are still destroying a human life God created but one of my seminary teachers said that a lot of people that commmit suicide arent in their right mind and its possible that God would have leniency. However like i said, its up to him to decide.
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:26 AM   #31
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Default Re: Being saved

Actually, I only read a few people's posts so I don't care if I'm repeating someone. The Bible actually says, it doesn't matter if you were a good person. If you helped everyone, went to church everyday and did anything religious-related, you still would go to Hell if you hadn't asked Jesus to save you of your sins and come into your heart. Likewise, if you were the world's biggest serial killer and you beat up everyone, you could ask Jesus into your heart and go to Heaven. Good deeds don't amount to anything unless you're saved. And yes, purgatory is a made-up place.

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Old 04-14-2007, 02:22 AM   #32
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Default Re: Being saved

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Likewise, if you were the world's biggest serial killer and you beat up everyone, you could ask Jesus into your heart and go to Heaven.
I've yet to meet someone whose christian beliefs I find -remotely- credible who would say that simply asking for forgiveness is a free ticket into heaven. You have to -MEAN- it, and since christians believe that God is all-knowing, I rather think he'll know if you're just trying to pull one over on him, and probably make your damnation worse.

Remember kiddies, Saying "I'm Sorry" and -being- Sorry are not remotely the same thing.
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Old 04-14-2007, 03:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: Being saved

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
I've yet to meet someone whose christian beliefs I find -remotely- credible who would say that simply asking for forgiveness is a free ticket into heaven. You have to -MEAN- it, and since christians believe that God is all-knowing, I rather think he'll know if you're just trying to pull one over on him, and probably make your damnation worse.

Remember kiddies, Saying "I'm Sorry" and -being- Sorry are not remotely the same thing.
Well, I am a Baptist, and of course you have to mean it. It's usually implied that everyone already knows you have to mean it.

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Old 04-14-2007, 03:25 AM   #34
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Default Re: Being saved

Well, if you truly do mean it, and God forgives everyone of everything that they truly feel remorse for, and God will know, infallibly if you actually feel remorse...then how is it any kind of problem that someone who -had- sinned greatly can still be saved?
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Old 04-14-2007, 03:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: Being saved

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Well, if you truly do mean it, and God forgives everyone of everything that they truly feel remorse for, and God will know, infallibly if you actually feel remorse...then how is it any kind of problem that someone who -had- sinned greatly can still be saved?
You're beggin the question. You don't go to heaven simply because you feel sorry. You have to truthfully accept Jesus into your heart AND ask Him for forgiveness. I'm not fully comprehending what question you are trying to convey at the end though. If I'm understanding it correctly, then I'm saying it's not a problem. I'm saying that no matter what you're previous actions, should you truly get saved, you will go to Heaven. If you read The Bible, you will see that the town whore of Jericho helped God's people and then got saved. Prostitution is a big sin, and yet she is mentioned all throughout The Bible.

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Old 04-14-2007, 04:14 AM   #36
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Default Re: Being saved

Er...right...you just seemed to be arguing that somehow genuine repentance and acceptance of the faith getting previously "evil" people saved and into heaven was somehow a bad thing, like they had cheated by only repenting at the end.
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Old 04-14-2007, 05:28 AM   #37
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Default Re: Being saved

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So, I'm just wondering, and I'm not trying to attack any religion or anything like that, this is just something I've wondered for a few months now and I figure the CT forum would be a good place to get some more open-minded points of view.. so here it goes.

This is from a sect's point of view that does not believe in purgatory keep in mind. Just heaven and hell

So, if you've never heard of God or of Christianity and you die, then do you still go to heaven if you were a relatively good person? If you go to Hell simply because you didn't worship God, but you still did your part in playing a positive role in society, wouldn't that seem cruel and heartless?

Or, if you haven't heard about God and in which case he says "Well, they never had the opportunity to hear of my word, and they were good people, I'll let em in." then...why do Christians continue to be so insistent on spreading the word? Isn't that like inviting people to Hell?

What is your guys's take on this? Cause in the bible it states that it is not by acts of righteousness by which we are saved, but by the grace of God. So, do our acts hold no sway at all? Especially if you were never "enlightened with the word of God"?

(tired, if any of this confuses anyone ask questions and I can answer them, it's not that I don't know how to word what I'm saying, it's just that I'm very tired at the moment)

So basically, do our acts mean anything? If not, then why do we bother, and if so, then why is worshipping an all knowing, all powerful, all loving being so important?
It's kind of hard for me to reply to this sense i'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as heaven and hell.

There is no heaven and hell as I see it, the good are rewarded and the bad are punished right here on earth.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:08 AM   #38
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Default Re: Being saved

Well here's my two cents

Babies and toddlers who die are going to go to heaven, or just die and don't go anywhere, like animals do. However this would mean they have no soul and that is a weird area especially as most christians believe that the baby has a soul at conception. But in the end, God is an all-loving God, why on earth would he send an innocent baby to hell, I know I don't want to follow a God that does that.

And Wlfwind, in reply to your other questions, if someone in the jungle has never ever heard about God and Jesus and grace and all that good stuff, then again I believe God will be fair, I don't know how it works, but I have faith in God that he will judge fairly.

And actions are not important in getting you into heaven, in my Anglican beliefs, because God knows you are going to be an idiot and slip up every day but accepting forgiveness cleanses us of our sins.

However, and its a big however, our actions are important in getting other people into heaven, if we act like Christians should, all-loving, all-caring, good people then others are going to see that in us and ask questions etc. and hopefully accept the faith themselves.
You could ask, 'but who cares about others, as long as I have my ticket into heaven?'
This is flawed in a million places though, firstly, everybody cares about their own family and friends, and nobody wants them to go to hell. Secondly, if you really did accept Jesus into your heart, then he's going to change you not to think like that.

Lastly, Ecclesiastes is amazing isn't it, it's my favourite book of the bible as well. But I would argue that it is God's will that that book is in there, and I would also say its a very true book, it says that the only thing worth having in the entire world is God, everything else is pointless, like chasing the wind. And if some of it seems to go against the teachings of God, then this is ok too, just look at the psalms, and at some of the anger and sinful thoughts within them. This shows how these bits of the bible were written by real people, with all the problems of today in their hearts.

Hope this has explained something
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:19 AM   #39
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Default Re: Being saved

Well, this might already have been said, because I'm not reading the long posts. I am roman catholic, and we believe that if you haven't ever heard of God, but you are in fact a good person, you can still go to heaven. We pray and offer our thanks to God because we are thanking him for all he has given us. It's a little like this: What if someone was going to give you 1 million dollars. Would you take it and walk away without profusely thanking them and wanting to help them and/or pay them back? I think not. That is why we praise and thank God. He's already given heaven to us; we just have to be willing to accept this gift.
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Being saved

good works dont get you into heaven. believeing that you are sinful and asking God to forgive you, believe He died for you, and THEN trying to do His will and being the best person you can be? that added all together will work.

worshipping God is important because He made everything. you, me, your computer, your madd skeelz to play FFR, your significant other, food, the whole world. EVERYTHING. He sent His one and only son He ever had to suffer the cruelest death ever imaginable to die for you, for me, for all of us -- us lowly, stupid, sinful, undeserving human beings. if you run to Him and ask for His love and forgiveness and you keep living in Him, you'll go to heaven. God is awesome, and that word is overused too much. He's done everything and will do anything to pull you to Him. He loves you more than the en-tire world that He Himself created. thats saying alot.

you have to believe in God, love Him, go to Him, talk to Him, run to Him and worship Him ALONG with doing the best you can in good works. if you just do good things but never believe in God or anything stated a sentence ago.. it just doesnt matter. you'll be in hell, even if you were 'a good person'.
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