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Old 04-5-2007, 02:14 AM   #21
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

One question, it might seem dumb to ask but what is the general theory about how this dense sphere who's origin is unknown spontaneously combusted which became a catalyst for the smallest of atoms and elements to form within this area we know as the universe that eventually lead up to the creation of complex life forms that have the ability to think and speak. What was it that caused it to explode, thats all i want to know.

A few quick thoughts here though.

It was very disturbing and unconvincing to hear these people say that anyone that doesnt agree is an idiot. It shows signs of one-sided banter. However, it disturbs me almost equally as much to see some of you sit there and call them hypocrites and then turn around to say they are completely wrong and anyone who doesnt agree with them is an idiot. It has almost literally been said on one side of the arguement "we are unbiased but you are an idiot if you dont agree" and then the other side goes and says "you are hypocrites for saying you are unbiased but you are completely wrong". Who is anyone to call anyone else a hypocrite or an idiot for not completely and utterly agreeing?
"God ****ed up and created more life more intelligent than he." Oh my... i seriously dont think i have EVER heard anything more blatantly blasphemous in my entire life. My goodness...

It is known that we do not know everything about everything and as thus science is subject to change as it has done so many times due to new information. As such, you cannot say that from what we know now it is irrefutable that the laws of physics and all other such laws are completely true. This could easily show that both sides of the arguement dont know NEARLY enough information to prove their case. "Fact is.." that science as we currently know it will change to fit newly discovered information which is why they are labeled theories in the first place.

Time for the hardcore religious people. No matter how hard you try you will not be able to convince everyone that because of the bible God exists and is undeniably all-knowing and all-encompasing cause its not gonna happen. Blind faith will get you no more than a stamp on your forehead labeled "close-minded". Imposing your BELIEFS on others and posing them as FACT is not going to get you anywhere. PROVING something through FAITH simply just does not work out.

You have to understand that no matter how much you try to prove a concept to a mass of people there is always going to be at VERY least 1 person thick-headed and stubborn enough to not believe you. The more you try to sit there and prove it to them only proves that you are just as thick-head and stubborn as they are. So i suggest that until one of the sides gains complete, undeniable, absolutely correct information to prove their side to even the most stubborn person on the planet then we should all keep our thoughts on the matter to ourselves because no one is going to change their mind and all it brings is arguement and not intelligent conversation.
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Old 04-5-2007, 02:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
My last professor of science told the class that evolution is a fact, Jewpin.
Oh, that must make it true...you know...coming from a guy whose entire life's work has been based on the theory of Evolution. For him to say otherwise would be like a priest saying "God might not exist."
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Old 04-5-2007, 02:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

Well, what about my professors, jewpin? The guys who are so dedicated to the proper following of the scientific method that they teach courses on it? The guys whose reputations and jobs are staked on such claims and whose professional responsibilities hinge on being unbiased in such matters?

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Old 04-5-2007, 03:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Oh, that must make it true...you know...coming from a guy whose entire life's work has been based on the theory of Evolution. For him to say otherwise would be like a priest saying "God might not exist."
You told us to ask science professors about this!

And no, he's not focusing on the study of evolution. He finds trilobite fossils when he takes walks along the bay.

Edit: His official webpage says he's a research scientist. I can't sum it up better than his biography can.

http://hazen.gl.ciw.edu/?q=node/96

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Old 04-5-2007, 09:16 AM   #25
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

Nothing is true: everything is permitted.
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Old 04-5-2007, 12:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by slipstrike0159 View Post
What was it that caused it to explode, thats all i want to know.
That's still being debated. M-Theory proposes that our universe is the result of a collision between two other universes. Other theories of physics propose other explanations. Superstring Theory, which currently seems to be the dominant theory of physics, proposes something else altogether
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Old 04-5-2007, 03:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
You told us to ask science professors about this!

And no, he's not focusing on the study of evolution. He finds trilobite fossils when he takes walks along the bay.

Edit: His official webpage says he's a research scientist. I can't sum it up better than his biography can.

http://hazen.gl.ciw.edu/?q=node/96
So his current field of study is spontaneous creation? Correct me if I am wrong, but those who prescribe to such a belief are most likely atheist. Not that that should discredit anything, but you should be weary of his scientism. If you look at the history of science you will find that evidence that contradicts the paradigm of that time is often discarded or ignored until some years later when a young seemingly insane scientist creates a new crack-job theory to explain the inconsistent data. Even then the scientist is often ridiculed for his blasphemy in speaking out against the accepted theory of the time.

I will say that you'd have to be an idiot to disregard the Theory of Evolution, uniformitarianism, etc. given the evidence to support it, but I still won't say it's a fact because I believe it is important to have an open mind, to be skeptical of everything and to not accept anything to be "true" in the field of science as tomorrow evidence could be unsurfaced that seems to disprove Evolution (not like it will happen, but it could, reality shattering sh*t like that happens all the time in science).
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Old 04-5-2007, 03:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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You should try taking a History and Philosophy of Science course. You know, so you don't have to talk out of your ass so much. Ask any self respecting scientist if they believe Evolution is a fact and they will respond no. Why? BECAUSE THE NATURE OF SCIENCE IS TENTATIVE. Science is what it is because it never assumes anything to be true...even if there is irrefutable evidence to support it.

People who claim that Evolution is a fact only want to push their belief on others.

Now Reach, understand that I am an atheist, I believe in the Big Bang Theory and Evolution.

Oh, and axioms (and deductive reasoning) are the enemy of science. Nothing should ever be assumed true. Ever. Axioms are what philosopher's use to back their claims, not scientists.
I know it's easy to do (I am guilty), but don't throw subtle insults around when debating. I am a science major too, by the way and philosophy courses are nothing new.

That and, all of my bio profs agree that evolution is a fact of life. Every single one of them. Would they tell you, for example, that the theory itself is a fact? No, because it's a theory. I agree with you on that.

I think we are probably disagreeing over what a 'fact' is more than anything. I think, to claim that evolution cannot be shown to be a fact is silly. It doesn't achieve anything. I realize science is tentative, but I use the word fact when something can be backed up by irrefutable evidence. The 'process' of evolution is not a prediction, like the theory of evolution might be. Just like I can know that yesterday I ate cheese, I can know that evolution is at work because I can observe it happening. This, to me, is sufficient to say that something is a fact.

The whole issue is purely semantics at this point, so it's almost pointless to go ahead and argue it, but I will.

As defined by the dictionary, a fact is: something known to exist or to have happened: 'Space travel is now a fact'. If you would like to use a different definition of a fact, then so be it. However, my use of 'fact' when talking about evolution is appropriate.


edit: I just read this XD

Quote:
"God ****ed up and created more life more intelligent than he." Oh my... i seriously dont think i have EVER heard anything more blatantly blasphemous in my entire life. My goodness...
The whole post was pretty much a joke, in case you didn't notice.

Quote:
So i suggest that until one of the sides gains complete, undeniable, absolutely correct information to prove their side to even the most stubborn person on the planet then we should all keep our thoughts on the matter to ourselves because no one is going to change their mind and all it brings is arguement and not intelligent conversation.
Define , complete, undeniable evidence/information. How is directly observing genetic evolution in action NOT absolutely correct information? It seems to me like you are suggesting that nothing can be shown to be correct, which is a dodge. It is quite convenient to use this if you wish to dodge the argument at hand...however, I don't buy it. The whole point really, is that the information and evidence here really is undeniable.
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Old 04-5-2007, 03:51 PM   #29
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

Wow, watching this stupidity has made me realize something. I've been selling myself ridiculously short. I'm going to have to go back to school after I finish my present degree program and get training in science.
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

Evolution is wrong, in my opinion.
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Evolution is wrong, in my opinion.
LOL, would you mind telling us the basis for your opinion?
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:50 PM   #32
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

lmao two people went boom, and popped out four kids then they ganged up and made whoopie and vwalla. humanity xD
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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LOL, would you mind telling us the basis for your opinion?
Sure. I'd love to.

I believe in creation, not evolution. For either to be a theory, they must be repeatable events, observable events. Creation as taught in the Bible was only observed by God and His angels. Evolution, by definition, happened when no one was around, and then continued so slowly that no one would be able to recognize that evolution occurred, therefore it is also a non-observable event.

I believe in God 100% and don't questions anything about him. He has gotten me where I am today and I'm very greatful for that and everything else He's done for me. I go by what the Bible says about creation and life.

I really hope that none of this offends anyone. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. I'm simply stating my opinion. =]
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:53 PM   #34
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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lmao two people went boom, and popped out four kids then they ganged up and made whoopie and vwalla. humanity xD
That's beautiful.
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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therefore it is also a non-observable event.
You are different from your parents. Yes, that is evolution. Observable, I would say so.
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Old 04-5-2007, 04:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

Itbby, having a belief is fine, but as long as it isn't based on empirical evidence (the events of creation have only been observed by beings that cannot be proven to exist), it cannot be anything more than a belief. That's why there really isn't a debate here. Having a belief and using the tools we have as humans to understand the world around us are entirely different realms of thought.
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Old 04-5-2007, 05:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Sure. I'd love to.

I believe in creation, not evolution. For either to be a theory, they must be repeatable events, observable events. Creation as taught in the Bible was only observed by God and His angels. Evolution, by definition, happened when no one was around, and then continued so slowly that no one would be able to recognize that evolution occurred, therefore it is also a non-observable event.

I believe in God 100% and don't questions anything about him. He has gotten me where I am today and I'm very greatful for that and everything else He's done for me. I go by what the Bible says about creation and life.

I really hope that none of this offends anyone. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. I'm simply stating my opinion. =]
There is no harm in an opinion. I would like to point out something, though.

Evolution, by definition, is always happening! Therefore, evolution is actually something we can observe.

You are a very trusting person. Do know that evolution does not throw out the idea of a God. It does throw out creation and design, but not God.
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Old 04-5-2007, 05:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

And by definition, it is not created by science. It is a description of events that have been observed.
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Old 04-5-2007, 05:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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There is no harm in an opinion. I would like to point out something, though.

Evolution, by definition, is always happening! Therefore, evolution is actually something we can observe.

You are a very trusting person. Do know that evolution does not throw out the idea of a God. It does throw out creation and design, but not God.
Thank you very much.
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Old 04-5-2007, 05:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: Evolution & Darwin Vs. Creation

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Define , complete, undeniable evidence/information. How is directly observing genetic evolution in action NOT absolutely correct information? It seems to me like you are suggesting that nothing can be shown to be correct, which is a dodge. It is quite convenient to use this if you wish to dodge the argument at hand...however, I don't buy it. The whole point really, is that the information and evidence here really is undeniable.
Who ever said i was talking about evolution? I was primarily talking about the big bang and the creation of the universe as a whole. All i was saying at that point that was regardless of how much pieces of information you have, you will never convince the other side that you are right unless you have all the information and prove them wrong. Its kind of like someone saying "you cant break a pencil", you can sit there for hours explaining to them that the structural integrity of the pencil is not enough to support a given amount of pressure but until you grab one and break it right in front of their face you will not convince them if they are stubborn enough. As thus, you cannot convince the other side that you are right unless you have "complete undeniable evidence" such as showing the person the broken pencil.
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