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Old 01-4-2007, 10:06 PM   #61
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by scottish View Post
Do me a favor, define word for me without using words. Yeah.
Wow, thats probably the stupidest thing i have ever heard. What am i supposed to do, define a word with numbers? "Oh well you see, Smart = 3", but wait a minute! According to you, 3 is a number which is man made and thus its the same as words and time so i obviously cant use that.

I can honestly say that your entire post was an utter waste of my time. You sat there trying to sound smart but you actually only said that words and time are man-made, you cant prove anything by any means, cause and effect are not real and unlimted (still dont know where you were going with that), we assume things happen and we cant ever know for sure, and that the apocalypse cant be caused by us because then that event would cause us. I really dont understand how you think you said anything productive or anything that proves anything else, i saw it as rambling on about nothing.

ANYWAY, the whole homosexuality tangent came off of how close we are to the apocalypse according to church doctrine. It has been stated that the earth will become masively overflooded with evil before the second coming and one sign of that is homosexuality because it is an abomination before God. I will admit, we did go completely off subject and started arguing about whether or not its curable by sure will power, but that was what sparked the conversation for those who were wondering.
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Old 01-5-2007, 02:17 AM   #62
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

You're missing the point.
Words are human made, they do not exist without the use of them by humans. Saying that the apocolypse may happen in the future has ABSOLUTELTY nothing to do with what will happen in the future. Actions are seperate from words.
For example: If you were physically unable to speak or hear, how would you get something accross to me?. By actually doing what we would normally express through a word. Words have nothing to do with any action unless WE provide the meaning behind it. I could say that I went and milked a cow, and actually sat on the couch.
Along with that, I could say that the apocalypse is soon, when all we are doing is gathering and analyzing data which tends to sway towards some type of the destrction of the earth and all living things. Can we really base the destruction of life by simply saying something? Or looking at numbers? Numbers that have absolutely nothing to do with any other living creature other than us?
Words. Take the word away from the object we associate it with and the object still exists. All we do is provide a way of describing what that object is, rather than looking at it.
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Wow, thats probably the stupidest thing i have ever heard. What am i supposed to do, define a word with numbers? "Oh well you see, Smart = 3", but wait a minute! According to you, 3 is a number which is man made and thus its the same as words and time so i obviously cant use that.
First of all, you didn't hear it, you read it. Secondly, you either mis-understood it or I stated it pretty weird. What I mean is..
A word only exists because we give it a meaning through the use of a word. Defining what a word is using words does not give us any clue to what a word actually is. It's the same as giving a definition of a word using the word itself. I didn't mean it to sound like I was asking you to define a word with a number, but yes, numbers are also man made, it was more of, what meaning does a word have when all it is is a word. A tree still exists if we take the label "tree" off of it.

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the whole homosexuality tangent came off of how close we are to the apocalypse according to church doctrine.
A doctrine. Hmm, I could write a doctrine, and say that the earth was going to blow up in 2800 A.D and have it mean absolutely nothing to anyone.
Yet a group of powerful religous figures have a doctrine that states that and it is believed by so many people. What would have stopped them from making the entire thing up? You're going to tell me that their views, perception, or anything else is better than mine because they are so called "closer to god"? Bull****.
Look at this, and not subjectively with christian views.
You're going to tell me that one person has the power to tell ME, what good or bad is, what right or wrong is, what is pure or evil? No, no, no one has that power. Good/Bad, Wrong/Right are simply differences in perspective. Saying that evil is going to spread the world may be evil to an individual or a group, but to another it may be something pure or good.
Just because a doctrine, a script, a book, a letter, a speech, etc. etc. said something, does not mean that it is true.

Clearing up something I said before, I meant to tie the causality into the thread because we are simply looking at the situation on a small scale. One person may say its religous, one person may say its due to global warming, one person may say its due to humans, but we are all assuming that we can define the end of the world through simple little words. A word cannot physically kill someone, I think if there was going to be an end to life, it will be beyond our grasp of defining it because we have yet to experience death. I could go on and on about this, but there is no point because I'll end up writing a book before I got done writing.
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Old 01-5-2007, 04:12 PM   #63
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by scottish View Post
For example: If you were physically unable to speak or hear, how would you get something accross to me?. By actually doing what we would normally express through a word. Words have nothing to do with any action unless WE provide the meaning behind it. I could say that I went and milked a cow, and actually sat on the couch.

A doctrine. Hmm, I could write a doctrine, and say that the earth was going to blow up in 2800 A.D and have it mean absolutely nothing to anyone.
Yet a group of powerful religous figures have a doctrine that states that and it is believed by so many people. What would have stopped them from making the entire thing up? You're going to tell me that their views, perception, or anything else is better than mine because they are so called "closer to god"? Bull****.
First of all if i was unable to speak i could still communicate through body language, expressions of emotions often show what a person is thinking or trying to say. "I could say that I went and milked a cow, and actually sat on the couch." Well yes... people lie, whats your point?
Second of all you could not write a doctrine because you have no authority to do so. I think of doctrine as being a communication from god telling how we should act or even to tell us answers to many questions we do have. Someone once told me that you can think of doctrine as being inspired words through the holy ghost. So its not necessarily the people who are "close to god" who "makes it up", but more like people receiving revelation. No one said revelation can only be shown to people who are close to God like the pope, it can be revealed to anyone, its just that only happens on a personal level about yourself. Certain keys are given to priesthood members to be able to receive revelation for others, like how the prophet can recieve revelation for what direction the church should be headed.
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Old 01-5-2007, 05:32 PM   #64
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

Scottish, I want someone really clever to rip apart what your saying, but you've made it too complicated so I don't know what to say but I know its wrong...
I mean are you saying we can't predict the end of the world because the words we use mean nothing.. because thats a tad silly now isn't it.

And Mr. Slipstrike, although I wholeheartedly approve of your opposition to Scottish I don't agree with your beliefs on doctrine but meh, I guess thats just a protestant vs. catholic thing
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Old 01-5-2007, 09:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

Im neither protestant nor catholic... unless of course you were just using it to show a certain type of relationship between religious beliefs.
Anyway, i totally agree with you in that i cant effectively rip him appart because for the most part i dont even understand what scott is trying to get across =\. Then again, it could just be that he is too stubborn and prideful to admit what he says makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 01-5-2007, 10:39 PM   #66
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Haha, if you seriously think that homosexuality is a lifestyle you are born with then you obviously lack a specific ability to use common sense.
You can't prove it isn't, so really, it would be best to leave the attitude out of the thread.

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Second of all you could not write a doctrine because you have no authority to do so. I think of doctrine as being a communication from god telling how we should act or even to tell us answers to many questions we do have.
Who do you think wrote the bible? Use some common sense here. A falliable human being, just like me and you. It's pretty easy to say something is the word of God, but that doesn't mean there's a shred of evidence to support that fact.



As for what scottish said; he went on in a rather elaborate and confusing manner to say 'Simply stating the apocalypse will happen has no inherent meaning without any physical evidence to suport it'.

Which is basically an argument against the doctrine, if you didn't catch that. Essentially the doctrine is just a bunch of words that provide no 'real' evidence that the world is going to end or...much of anything for that matter. Also, 'God' is not a reliable source of information, as it is not 'real' in the sense that it is has no physical representation.
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Old 01-5-2007, 10:56 PM   #67
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
Who do you think wrote the bible? Use some common sense here. A falliable human being, just like me and you. It's pretty easy to say something is the word of God, but that doesn't mean there's a shred of evidence to support that fact.
Also, 'God' is not a reliable source of information, as it is not 'real' in the sense that it is has no physical representation.
First of all, saying it is the word of God isnt enough. There are false doctrine and revelation all over the place. It basically all comes down to faith, you can read something in the bible or book of mormon or whatever and you pray about it and you have a deep wonderful feeling assuring you that its true then thats proof enough for most. Im trying my best not to bring religion into it but its all i can do because to put it plain and simple the apocalypse has been and is being foretold in religious 'doctrine' and meetings.
Secondly, you can say that God is not real because "it" has no physical representation although you would be considered wrong in some church teachings. If i would refer to the first vision of Joseph Smith, it has been documented that God and Christ both came down as physical entities to speak to him through their own mouths. It doesnt get more physical than having someone you can physically see, touch, and hear be right in front of you. However, these are just teachings of a certain church and no one has to believe them if they dont wish, but thats how im going to defend my own ideas.
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Old 01-5-2007, 11:08 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by scottish View Post
Look at this, and not subjectively with christian views.
You're going to tell me that one person has the power to tell ME, what good or bad is, what right or wrong is, what is pure or evil? No, no, no one has that power. Good/Bad, Wrong/Right are simply differences in perspective. Saying that evil is going to spread the world may be evil to an individual or a group, but to another it may be something pure or good.
Just because a doctrine, a script, a book, a letter, a speech, etc. etc. said something, does not mean that it is true.
When you have Jesus in you the difference between right/wrong is pretty clear. Jesus is that common perspective, if you dont have that common perspective then the apoycalpse, right/wrong, good/bad will be different from others.
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Old 01-5-2007, 11:22 PM   #69
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Im trying my best not to bring religion into it but its all i can do because to put it plain and simple the apocalypse has been and is being foretold in religious 'doctrine' and meetings.
Great, just understand that these foretellings could very well be wrong. Considering they lack physical evidence, I would go as far as to say the odds are stacked against these foretellings.

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Secondly, you can say that God is not real because "it" has no physical representation although you would be considered wrong in some church teachings
Yes, but thankfully in 2007 the church doesn't have authority to tell the people what is right and what is wrong anymore. Thank goodness.

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If i would refer to the first vision of Joseph Smith, it has been documented that God and Christ both came down as physical entities to speak to him through their own mouths. It doesnt get more physical than having someone you can physically see, touch, and hear be right in front of you.
Again there is no physical evidence to support this. I will also given you an example of why you should judge critically such a claim.

It has been documented that people have been abducted by aliens and anally probed and like, sexually stimulated. Do you believe this, just because it has been documented and someone believes it whole heartedly?

No, you probably don't. Now use this same reasoning to reflect on what you just told me. Why would I have any reason at all to believe such a claim?


Edit: Speak the devil, there's an alien in my backyard right now. She's hot, too. Look at that sexy blue skin and yellow eyes. Brb while I get anally probed and you rivel here in jealously, because seriously this IS happening because I have written it down!!
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Old 01-5-2007, 11:40 PM   #70
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
Great, just understand that these foretellings could very well be wrong. Considering they lack physical evidence, I would go as far as to say the odds are stacked against these foretellings.



Yes, but thankfully in 2007 the church doesn't have authority to tell the people what is right and what is wrong anymore. Thank goodness.
Why would I have any reason at all to believe such a claim?


Edit: Speak the devil, there's an alien in my backyard right now. She's hot, too. Look at that sexy blue skin and yellow eyes. Brb while I get anally probed and you rivel here in jealously, because seriously this IS happening because I have written it down!!
First off, my religion has never gone out and stated a date for destruction like so many have and do you know why chances are stacked against such things? BECAUSE THEY HAVENT HAPPENED YET.
Second of all, the church has every authority to tell people what is right and what is wrong. However, whether or not they FORCE people to believe what they believe is a different matter. Under a corrupt leader a church cannot ever hold water to true doctrine which is why we believe that if the prophet try to lead us astray with all of his might and influence, he would be killed instantly.
Third of all, i cannot give you faith and i cannot convince you with hardcore evidence and scientific methods because fact is religion isnt scientific. Science is a worldly thing, its there to help explain why things happen because of peoples curiosity.
Also, if you are calling for evidence then you can just read those writings, decide for yourself if they are so made up. Im willing to bet that you have heard stories about it and nothing more.
Finally, i dont find humor in relating a vision of God and his only begotten son to some head trip who thinks they were raped by aliens.
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Old 01-5-2007, 11:46 PM   #71
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Second of all, the church has every authority to tell people what is right and what is wrong
No, they don't.

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However, whether or not they FORCE people to believe what they believe is a different matter
It's exactly what they try to do. Been there, done that.

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Third of all, i cannot give you faith and i cannot convince you with hardcore evidence and scientific methods because fact is religion isnt scientific.
Exactly. So now you just have to get a little past this and understand your religion is no better than any other unsupported idea. I know, it's hard to take in, but it's true.

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Finally, i dont find humor in relating a vision of God and his only begotten son to some head trip who thinks they were raped by aliens.
Both are merely unsupported documents by human beings. You're still missing the point because you hold these ideas so closely to you, which is understandable. However, there is still no inherent difference between the two things. You create that difference you perceive.
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:00 AM   #72
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
No, they don't.


It's exactly what they try to do. Been there, done that.



Exactly. So now you just have to get a little past this and understand your religion is no better than any other unsupported idea. I know, it's hard to take in, but it's true.



Both are merely unsupported documents by human beings.
Uhm... i think you are missing what i said because the church can tell you what to believe because of free speach and you can choose to ignore or not believe it because you your freedom of religion. They dont FORCE anything, they mearly suggest and try to show you some of the ideas they have in hopes of making you realize whether they are to be ignored or not.
Just wondering... if you think the documents i talk about are so unsupported, then how would you make it so they were supported. Or rather, what kind of physical evidence would there have to be present to make you believe that what they say might have truth behind it? Im thinking that the only way everyones ignorance will be taken away is if God himself physically appeared on earth (again) making it blatantly obvious that he is God as we have thought of, have every single person on earth go up and witness that he is actually physically there, and then have him tell you himself which doctrine came from him and which didnt (btw, we believe that he has already told us which doctrine comes from him and which doesnt, but its up to you to decide to listen to it or not). Even then people would be skeptical and would not believe it. I guess it is just appauling that so many people cast aside religion primarily because it doesnt have enough convincing WORLDLY evidence that their brains will accpet. I guess all that is to be done is wait until it happens and you know the truth, but i promise you that the kind goodhearted people that were right wont go "AHAHA, we were right! what have you gotta say now? huh, huh, huh?". So go and believe what you will, and if you seriously want to think that miracles dont ever happen because they cant be proven then go right ahead, because you will learn soon enough.

I am generally very open-minded, but i refuse to believe something so important is easily discredited because there is a lack of something such as security or faith.
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:21 AM   #73
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Just wondering... if you think the documents i talk about are so unsupported, then how would you make it so they were supported
You can't. Hence my argument...

Quote:
Or rather, what kind of physical evidence would there have to be present to make you believe that what they say might have truth behind it?
It could be pretty basic. Just some physical evidence to show it's existance, and maybe some acknowledgement that these documents arn't just made up.

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So go and believe what you will, and if you seriously want to think that miracles dont ever happen because they cant be proven then go right ahead, because you will learn soon enough.
I don't believe they're the work of God.

PS I am scared. Am I on scare tactics?

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I am generally very open-minded, but i refuse to believe something so important is easily discredited because there is a lack of something such as security or faith.
1. It's important because you've made it important, not necessarily because it IS important.

2. Really, maybe you've missed the point. I'm not saying give up faith. I'm telling you to question things in your religion just as you could ANYTHING ELSE.

The alien analogy was primarily to show that ...you immediately deem alien probing as bogus, but the exact same logic and evidences back up your own beliefs, yet you question them not.


That doesn't make any sense now does it? No, it doesn't. I don't see why it's impossible to hold faith and also question and challenge it at the same time, rather than hold it to be an end all - be all. Human beings are naturally quite good at defending things they want to believe in. I know, I do it too.

That and the existance of a God doesn't really depend on a set of papers now does it? Though I believe religion is almost entirely false I wouldn't deny that something beyond my comprehension could definitely exist...and I respect that fact.
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:27 AM   #74
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

So important? Where does importance count in this? Importance, again, is subjective to the eyes or the person who is viewing it. Saying that playing FFR is important because it I say it's important doesn't mean that it is. The church, government, anything for that matter may not be important to some people, and that's what you're missing.
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They dont FORCE anything, they mearly suggest and try to show you some of the ideas they have in hopes of making you realize whether they are to be ignored or not.
Some of the ideas in hope of making someone realize whether they should be ignored or not? With what you are saying, if the church was ignored, doesn't that itself take importance, if there was such an importance in the church, away from it?


Quote:
Or rather, what kind of physical evidence would there have to be present to make you believe that what they say might have truth behind it? Im thinking that the only way everyones ignorance will be taken away is if God himself physically appeared on earth (again) making it blatantly obvious that he is God as we have thought of, have every single person on earth go up and witness that he is actually physically there, and then have him tell you himself which doctrine came from him and which didnt (btw, we believe that he has already told us which doctrine comes from him and which doesnt, but its up to you to decide to listen to it or not).
Thats exactly what I just said before, words are words. Physical evidence would be someone actually doing something, an act, to provide proof that the words one said actually had meaning behind them. You can actually say, "every last written document that has been kept in all of history never happened" if you wanted to. Word of mouth also has it's flaws. With that said, do not even attempt saying that the bible was kept alive due to stories people told to others, or from parents to children, I will tear your belief apart.
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:31 AM   #75
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
You can't. Hence my argument...



It could be pretty basic. Just some physical evidence to show it's existance, and maybe some acknowledgement that these documents arn't just made up.



I don't believe they're the work of God.

PS I am scared. Am I on scare tactics?



1. It's important because you've made it important, not necessarily because it IS important.

2. Really, maybe you've missed the point. I'm not saying give up faith. I'm telling you to question things in your religion just as you could ANYTHING ELSE.

The alien analogy was primarily to show that ...you immediately deem alien probing as bogus, but the exact same logic and evidences back up your own beliefs, yet you question them not.


That doesn't make any sense now does it? No, it doesn't. I don't see why it's impossible to hold faith and also question and challenge it at the same time, rather than hold it to be an end all - be all. Human beings are naturally quite good at defending things they want to believe in. I know, I do it too.

That and the existance of a God doesn't really depend on a set of papers now does it? Though I believe religion is almost entirely false I wouldn't deny that something beyond my comprehension could definitely exist...and I respect that fact.
Like i said, to please most skeptics a physical manifestation of God would have to tell you they are true. Also, I (being a young individual who doesnt study religious things as indepth as maybe i should) cannot answer and fully explain everything you would like to know. If you want answers about everything, i am more than positive you could talk to anyone who knows more about it than i do like a missionary or a high office holding church leader. Besides, what does evidence prove anyway, that it actually is a certain way? Even WITH the evidence required to prove that something is the way it is, there are still people who will pick it apart no matter how solid. There is no way to unquestionably prove anything in religion. So like i said, you can either go talk to someone who will give you the answers you want, or you can just wait and see what happens.
It is not impossible to hold faith and also question it, i too have my own questions about my gospel, but i also dont go on about how it couldnt be possible because it cant be proven to the people who are trying to explain what i seek.

One thing though, how can you completely disprove a religion or any belief by one concept that you dont believe to be totally and with out a doubt true?
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:50 AM   #76
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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If you want answers about everything, i am more than positive you could talk to anyone who knows more about it than i do like a missionary or a high office holding church leader.
You pulling stuff out of your behind or something? None of those officials or w/e have yet to prove anything. They only use a more refined way to confuse you and make you believe in what they tell you. This works on a lot of people. Sadly. They(people) want to believe, because they are afraid of being alone. I'd say fear is one of the main ingredients for religion to exist. As you see, humanity is advancing scientifically quite fast, the more we are into science, I mean, the more we understand, the less need for religion there is. It's simply starting to become outdated in some parts of the world.
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Old 01-6-2007, 12:59 AM   #77
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

Well thats essentially what religion is, a God-fearing way to interpret how to live. No i wasnt pulling things out of the air, i know a lot of concepts about the church but i havent studied it enough to know as much as others do. Besides, just because they havent come out and told everyone the specifc reasons why the beliefs could be backed up doesnt mean that they dont know. Fact is, people are too ignorant to believe it even if they were told the truth. You all just have to accept that no one is going to come out with a time machine that can let you personally experience all of the things that people witnessed and wrote about that made up the bible, BoM, etc. So there is really no arguement because no one can REALLY prove their side with hard evidence according to you all.

I understand COMPLETELY what everyone is trying to tell me, i am just trying to defend a different side of the arguement, one that i feel more strongly about and not necessarily one that can be proved more in full.
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Old 01-6-2007, 07:44 AM   #78
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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As for what scottish said; he went on in a rather elaborate and confusing manner to say 'Simply stating the apocalypse will happen has no inherent meaning without any physical evidence to suport it'.

Which is basically an argument against the doctrine, if you didn't catch that. Essentially the doctrine is just a bunch of words that provide no 'real' evidence that the world is going to end or...much of anything for that matter. Also, 'God' is not a reliable source of information, as it is not 'real' in the sense that it is has no physical representation.
I dont know why doctrine came into it...we were talking about Global Warming (yes, it gets capital letters now...) which is physical evidence that the world is going to implode and were all going to die. What more does Scottish want, Global Warming might just be too meaningless words but the fact the worlds getting warmer is a definite action.

And Reach, I question my faith every single day, and sometimes I question my questioning of my faith. This is far too much which is probably why I'm a bit of a rubbish Christian at times but it's really hard when your 'sciency' like I am and nearly every teacher/professor you come across in the science world likes to tell you God is a load of crap. And there is no way to prove God, or prove the validity of the bible, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, thinking why am I a Christian, why should anyone be a Christian. Not because it simply makes them a better person, because you shouldn't need God to help an old lady cross a street. Insurance against going to Hell is certainly no excuse and wanting to feel loved shouldn't be a reason either.
And so it came to me yesterday that the reason I'm a Christian is because, if God exists, and God made this universe around us then he deserves to be loved and followed. And then it simply comes down to whether you believe there is a God or not, and I do, and I can't not. I know this isn't the most satisfactory answer as to why anyone should be a Christian, but to me, it's enough of an answer to stick with my religion and seek out the rest of the unanswered questions.
Sorry I know I've been rambling on, but here is a nice place to sort through all the crap that goes round and round in my brain...
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Old 01-6-2007, 09:28 AM   #79
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

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Both are merely unsupported documents by human beings. You're still missing the point because you hold these ideas so closely to you, which is understandable. However, there is still no inherent difference between the two things. You create that difference you perceive.
I dont create the difference of perceprtion in me but Jesus does. People who dont have a relationship with Jesus cant/have-trouble telling the difference between the two.


Secondly alot of the people on the pro-bible, acoylapse seem to forget to metoin Jesus, and the fact the apoyclyapse is Jesus coming back. The apycolapse is has nothing to do with global warming or nuclear destruction, its a spirtual term. What physically happens to the world is not really to important.

Sherbtail, you question your faith daily, but all you metion is God, if you are in a personal relationship with Jesus then questioning your faith is alot harder, or the answer is alot easier to find. (This personal relationship is not scientificaly explainable, so I have given up trying to explain it on theese forums. Its something that requires some faith and you yourself need to seek it.)


Edit: slipstrike0159 is arguing and talking about church, and religion (both of which will not start your belief in the bible and its teachings, past etc....).

What is important is not religion but personal relationship with Jesus. Hes sort of on the right path and hes trying to fight the good fight but like he said hes young and not overly knowledgable about Christanity. Christainity is relationship not religion
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Old 01-6-2007, 10:28 AM   #80
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Default Re: The Apocalypse is getting Ready.

Windsurfer, Jesus is God, God is all three parts of the trinity, so I was talking about him, as well as the father and holy spirit.

Yeah, the apocalypse is Jesus coming back, but that doesn't mean to say he won't come back as the world as we know it is destroyed by Global Warming etc. Or even worse, the Christian apocalypse may not occur as Global Warming destroys our cities and creates havoc and we'll just have to live through the suffering.

I don't think having a relationship with God (all three parts) makes finding answers any easier, when most are unanswerable. And although I agree I need a healthy dose of extra faith. However I wouldn't want to stop questioning my faith altogether because then it becomes blind faith, which is one of the worst things there is
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