Old 11-28-2006, 01:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Separation of church and state does NOT mean what everyone seems to think it does. It does not mean "cannot legislate according to morality of the masses" but it means that a religion cannot sport a political platform. In other words, Gordon B. Hinckley, president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, can not run for office.
That's definitely not the only implication of the phrase. Inconsistent precidence and unclear wording makes separation of church and state a little bit confusing, though. Courts and laws have gone both ways, supporting it sometimes (as most people see it) and going against it other times. I think it applies in this case, though, since the arguement is mainly religious in nature. They can't make a law that says we all have to get married in the traditional Catholic way (or any specific marriage ceremony) because it'd support one religion and limit the practice of others.

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Originally Posted by Chardishzard
Gay people have, and always have had, the right to marry, just like straight people.

The issue is that gay people aren't happy with the current definition of marriage, as it doesn't allow them to marry the people they want to marry, so they want to change it.
That's the worst arguement against gay marriage I've ever seen. You could use that crap ass arguement in basically any case. Oh yeah, just because there's no legal definition for black people being more than 3/5 of a person they shouldn't get rights. Yeah guys let's completely ignore them. yay!
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by Laharl View Post
but it means that a religion cannot sport a political platform.
The "State" part of "Separation of Church and State" doesn't just refer to politics/running for office, but laws as well.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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One final thing, just to clarify a point EB brought up: Separation of church and state does NOT mean what everyone seems to think it does. It does not mean "cannot legislate according to morality of the masses" but it means that a religion cannot sport a political platform. In other words, Gordon B. Hinckley, president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, can not run for office.
I'm pretty sure that this is incredibly wrong.

Separation of Church and State doesn't prevent someone from ever running for office, or prevent a religion from having political weight.

There are two sections of Separation: establishment and free exercise. The former says, "the Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion."

So, the government can't say "we're a Christian country."

The other says that the state cannot prevent someone from exercising his religion.

Nothing about running for office.

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Old 11-28-2006, 04:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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I do believe that is the essence of the argument, m'dear. 'Twouldn't be for His sake.

I agree with EB on this one. I think it's my duty as an American citizen that, should I ever get the chance to vote on the issue, vote in favor of gay marriage. As a country, we shouldn't dictate moral ground. Do I condone same-sex marriage? No. But my opinions, while based on more than just a religious level, really don't go against the ideals of the Constitution as some of the extreme right-wingers would have you believe.

BUT

I will say that if they do allow gay marriages then they better re-allow plural marriages. It's legal for a guy to have 5 mistresses and have children with each of them, but it's illegal for him to be married to all 5. Explain that logic to me, please, because it goes over my head.

One final thing, just to clarify a point EB brought up: Separation of church and state does NOT mean what everyone seems to think it does. It does not mean "cannot legislate according to morality of the masses" but it means that a religion cannot sport a political platform. In other words, Gordon B. Hinckley, president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, can not run for office.
While this is a very good opinion....and I might add you just don't come on here and shout all day long like many people do. I appreciate that.
I agree with what you are saying for the most part but the thing here isn't simply seperation between church and state...if christians are in office that ok. But if they allow there relgiousness biast to interfear there is a problem. Most people also like to use religion to get into office and may not follow a single word they said. Morally speaking? Gays should get married cause it's there choice not ours. Maybe we should let a guy marry 5 people. Why not? It's his choice. People are going to do what they are going to do no matter what anyone says. I agree with moral issues and such as that but the point is: Getting married should be about the union of two people in love...isn't that what it's all about anyways?
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by evilbutterfly View Post
The thing that gets me about the whole debate is one of the founding principles of the US that never actually got carried out:

Separation of Church and State!

The only real arguement against same-sex marriage is that it breaks the moral/religious values of marriage. As far as our government is concerned, marriage should only be seen as a legal status, a (somewhat) binding contract between two people, and nothing more. It has no (again, as far as the government should be concerned) moral or religious implications. If the government cared about religious concerns, then hell, we might as well make divorce illegal, since that messes up the sanctity of marriage! Honestly, they should just change the definition of marriage from "between a man and a woman" to "between two people" and let the various churches and religious organizations decide for themselves whether or not they'll recognize the marriages (same way some people will refuse to accept that somebody is divorced, since there's no such thing by their beliefs).

Then again, we still swear on the Bible in court and are one nation under God, so I don't think the separation arguement will do much.
The main thing that you (and Laharl) seem to miss is that marriage is not only a declaration of love. (Now, before I continue, I feel it necessary to state that I am fully for gay marriage. I see nothing wrong with it.)

The other thing marriage implies is an economic status. As someone mentioned, tax breaks are involved. Family health care. Things like this. Many people are against gay marriage simply for the fact that a gay couple cannot have a child of their own, so the economic status is marred slightly. In my opinion, this argument is completely debunked by the amount of children who are in need of adoption. I truly believe more people should adopt far before thinking of having their own children... there are so many children out there with no parents, it's quite horrible.

Now, this economic status ESPECIALLY applies to the plural marriages Laharl brought up. Many corporations have healthcare policies that include not only the worker, but his/her spouse and children. If plural marriage were allowed, you could marry six people, and the corporation would be responsible for providing healthcare to all of them. It... would be a mess. There would be no fair way to come out of that situation. That's the main reason plural marriage isn't allowed, as far as I can tell.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

Well, consider this: same-sex partners aren't allowed into the ICU of hospitals even if their loved one is sick and dying because they aren't immediate family.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Many people are against gay marriage simply for the fact that a gay couple cannot have a child of their own, so the economic status is marred slightly.
Because obviously, if a homosexual can't marry someone of the same sex for this reason, that person is going to go out and marry a person of the opposite sex and have children with that person. Also, marriage always involves having kids, and it's completely okay for a straight couple to marry and not have kids but not for a gay couple to marry and not have kids.

Perfect reason to be against gay marriage.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

i dont know what you're talking about.

gay people have the same opportunity to get married to people of the opposite sex as straight people do.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:51 PM   #29
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Because obviously, if a homosexual can't marry someone of the same sex for this reason, that person is going to go out and marry a person of the opposite sex and have children with that person. Also, marriage always involves having kids, and it's completely okay for a straight couple to marry and not have kids but not for a gay couple to marry and not have kids.

Perfect reason to be against gay marriage.
I didn't say many people back up their opinions with VALID reasoning.

Heh.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:01 PM   #30
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by evilbutterfly View Post
The thing that gets me about the whole debate is one of the founding principles of the US that never actually got carried out:

Separation of Church and State!

The only real arguement against same-sex marriage is that it breaks the moral/religious values of marriage. As far as our government is concerned, marriage should only be seen as a legal status, a (somewhat) binding contract between two people, and nothing more. It has no (again, as far as the government should be concerned) moral or religious implications. If the government cared about religious concerns, then hell, we might as well make divorce illegal, since that messes up the sanctity of marriage! Honestly, they should just change the definition of marriage from "between a man and a woman" to "between two people" and let the various churches and religious organizations decide for themselves whether or not they'll recognize the marriages (same way some people will refuse to accept that somebody is divorced, since there's no such thing by their beliefs).

Then again, we still swear on the Bible in court and are one nation under God, so I don't think the separation arguement will do much.
seperation of church and state means that there shouldnt be one state mandated religion, not that morals shouldnt come into play when considering legislation.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:05 PM   #31
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

yeah just finished reading thread chardish right on.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:04 AM   #32
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

What exactly was the court ruling on this? I'm quite confused. How would gay marriage be considered unconstitutional? Under what amendment? I mean, of course I'm going to be biased in this argument because I am a homosexual myself but I see nothing wrong with gay marriage. Marriage IS an expression of love. Marriage is also a symbol of status. I mean, being discriminatory against homosexuals is ludicrous because in essence, the only difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals is that one prefers honey to jam. That is all. Just because homosexuals can not have kids does not mean they should be made second class citizens because that is imoral and just a ignorant way of thinking. If the government is deeming this unconstitutional, it clearly is having Christian influence because I'm not aware of any other major religion that deems homosexuality as a sin a marriage as a union between a man and a woman only. All I have to say is, I'm glad I'm in California then eh?
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:07 AM   #33
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter View Post
I'm pretty sure that this is incredibly wrong.

Separation of Church and State doesn't prevent someone from ever running for office, or prevent a religion from having political weight.

There are two sections of Separation: establishment and free exercise. The former says, "the Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion."

So, the government can't say "we're a Christian country."

The other says that the state cannot prevent someone from exercising his religion.

Nothing about running for office.
I should have said "On a church platform." He'd have to be entirely funded without the help of Governmental Aid, would he run for an office.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:12 AM   #34
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What exactly was the court ruling on this? I'm quite confused. How would gay marriage be considered unconstitutional? Under what amendment? I mean, of course I'm going to be biased in this argument because I am a homosexual myself but I see nothing wrong with gay marriage. Marriage IS an expression of love. Marriage is also a symbol of status. I mean, being discriminatory against homosexuals is ludicrous because in essence, the only difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals is that one prefers honey to jam. That is all. Just because homosexuals can not have kids does not mean they should be made second class citizens because that is imoral and just a ignorant way of thinking. If the government is deeming this unconstitutional, it clearly is having Christian influence because I'm not aware of any other major religion that deems homosexuality as a sin a marriage as a union between a man and a woman only. All I have to say is, I'm glad I'm in California then eh?
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Explain that to the VA legislature and the majority of the voting citizens out here. It's a crazy, foreign land full of ignorance and intolerance.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:15 AM   #35
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neither ignorance nor intolerance.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:17 AM   #36
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

As I said before, only the southern part of our state is retarded.

Seriously. Look who voted for and against that amendment. The people who actually know how to read saw that it's incredibly open-ended and needed revising voted against the amendment. The southerners who sit outside with their confederate flags flying, shotgun on one side and dog on the other are the ones who voted for the amendment.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:50 AM   #37
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

I have a really freaking hard time believing how so many people are against gay marriage. I really don't understand their platform at all.

Religion, okay, what if we don't touch your religion then? What if something was created that is EXACTLY like marriage in every way only with all religious aspects extracted?

Are people still against that?

Sorry if I sound more contrary than usual, but this particular issue really boggles my mind. Maybe I give the human race too much credit.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:23 AM   #38
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

I never really understood the platform against gay marriage either, and I'm usually one to consider both sides of any debate. Even from the standpoint of being completely selfish, what does one have to lose if a completely distant, gay couple gets married. Regardless of the fact that I'm from California, I really don't understand what the big deal is.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

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I never really understood the platform against gay marriage either.
its cause there isnt one, its purely religious influence, stating that marriage is between a man and a woman only, and thats basically their only argument against it, how on earth that argument held up against the incredible spectrum of reasons why gay marriage SHOULD be legal is beyond me.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

The opposition to gay marriage is

A) Basing it of religion, therefore the argument is nullified completely due to seperation of church and state. (This is true, all of the "protection" of marriage associations are religiously funded. All of the anti-gay marriage bills are backed by religious organizations.) Also, they need to shut up and realize that they shouldn't be dictating their own religious morality on people who don't believe in it.

B) Basing it on the "eww gay sex" factor. In that case they need to grow up and accept the fact that people are different.

Fact is that gay marriage is constitutional. Equal rights for everyone regardless.
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