Old 07-12-2006, 02:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: Death Itself

Either way you look at it, it is substantially hard to provide evidence.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: Death Itself

There is no evidence on all theories presented here, I am just going with the most plausible theory based upon the physics we know, and some measure of my own common sense.

Not denying or admitting any of them btw, god may exist, or not, etc. Just saying that my theory is the likeliest outcome after death.

I am just repeating myself. Wanted to make my view absolutely clear.
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:21 AM   #23
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Default Re: Death Itself

We all have our personal preferences, and thats what I think that counts in the end.
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Old 07-12-2006, 05:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: Death Itself

You don't experience death, and that's the simple key part of it.

Perception is a very limited part of what occurs in the human brain, and when you die your perception simply ceases to function. So when you die, you won't care that you're dead, there will be nothing there to care. You will not feel death, because there will be nothing there to feel. Do not try to imagine what death is like, because when you imagine you take use of perception, and death passes beyond the walls of perception.

Death will not be nothingness, the concept of nothing is an element of your perception. Do you get it now? Emotion, feeling, and everything else are all figments of your perception, and since death annihilates perception none of these will apply.

However, the moments leading up to death are pretty fun. It's basically a rush of DMT to your brain that make you trip out and go into complete mental overdrive right before your brain shuts off completely.



Also, any talk of 'the afterlife' or whatever is completely superfluous to this discussion. Your religious views are irrelevant to this discussion be them atheist, christian, taoist, buddhist, or anything else.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Death Itself

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However, the moments leading up to death are pretty fun. It's basically a rush of DMT to your brain that make you trip out and go into complete mental overdrive right before your brain shuts off completely.
Even if you say, get shot in the head or die instantly?

Death isn't always so fun

Not to mention I'm pretty sure DMT created in your brain doesn't have the same effects as the DMT you smoke, and they are unsure of it's actual effect, so I'm not sure if it would be that fun after all. Most natural DMT experiences arn't nearly as uh, exciting as some 4D techno buddah with mad lights. XD

windsurfer-sp, it is absolutely impossible to provide 'evidence' to your claims so don't even bother. Absolutely impossible. If you think you can you are highly mistaken or are confused onto how proof of knowledge is obtained, because you can't obtain it on something supernatural Saying something like 'oh well look at how complex we are' is an example of something that is not evidence.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:32 AM   #26
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Default Re: Death Itself

Reach, it sounds like you're provoking him to think differently. Sure it'll start a debate, but with little evidence from what he can give, it will turn out a bit bad. All he can say is that "faith" is the answer.

This is a death thread about what everyone's conception of death is. Mine is the same as ap's view.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:25 PM   #27
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Hey ap, in 2004 I was involved in a skateboarding accident, leaving me in the hospital for three days. A broken skull from my nose to well behind my ear, 4 broken ribs, and a broken collar bone late. Only later did I actually found out what happened in the hospital. Ended up that I had a huge hemotoma leading from above my eyes, clogging my sinus cavities, all the way to the back left side of my brain. On top of that, my skull was cracked from the nasal bone, through the frontal to the temporal and part of the parietal. Well while I was unconscious, doctors had taken a CT and didnt see much. They waited a hour, and took another one. Within that one hour the hemotoma expanded, pressing shattered skull into my brain. Then, my left side of the brain stopped recieving oxygen and blood. Turns out I tore an artery and my brain percieved this as "Lets shut the body down", and I stopped breathing. I was lucky because I was in the process of being transported to the OR at the moment. I was declared dead for 14 seconds, until they drained the hemotoma which somehow restarted my body and I was breathing again. Absolutely absurd, they never heard of this before. While I dont remember what happened, I do remember what was going on inside my head. I had no life capabilities, I couldnt hear myself speak, I couldn't see, all perception and feeling of life were gone. Yet, I was somewhere, unconsious I still remained somewhere. I'm not making reference to any religous belief, I'm only saying I had died and yet, somehow, I am living now with out any repercussions, I am almost 100% healthy. Any idea's on this?
Ohh, heres a pic.

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Old 07-12-2006, 02:22 PM   #28
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Default Re: Death Itself

You wern't dead yet is what happened. Crazy story though, glad you're alright.

Noone comes back from the dead. People come back from near death accidents all the time though. The body was in the 'process' of shutting itself down. You wern't really dead, so you were experiencing something. When they removed what was causing your death the body managed to kick start itself up again. I'm pretty sure you can actually be 'dead' for a few minutes and still restart someones processes and bring them back to life ie their heart.

My mom works at the hospital. I've actually seen someone come in with their head literally 'cut off' at the neck, and it was hanging off to the side, with the spinal cord and some vessels still attached. He was in an ATV accident. He walked out of the hospital some couple hours later. The body sometimes just doesn't die lmfao. Yet at other times people die so easily. Who knows.

Who knows what you saw could be a million things.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: Death Itself

We're just too stupid to know of a way of restarting the body.

And even though restarting after a certain period of time will mean that the person is going to be in some sort of brain damage since their stuff is dying.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Death Itself

Too stupid? We die because our important organs lack the capability to function. We can't do anything about natural wear and tear on a body, and we have developed ways to restart the body for other premature causes of death (defibrillator much?).

I don't see how human stupidity factors in, Snapps.

@your second comment, that's not necessarily true. If you "die" of hypothermia with your brain shutting down quickly, you can be revived with no significant damage. Of course, most natural cases of that happening have at least some damage.

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Old 07-12-2006, 02:33 PM   #31
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Default Re: Death Itself

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Originally Posted by Snapps
We're just too stupid to know of a way of restarting the body.

Not really too stupid. It's kind of hard to restart organs that don't work. We can restart the body a few minutes after someone is dead, sometimes, if there are not complications with the organs themselves that we can't do anything about.

Cloning could save us. Organ cloning is where it's at ;D
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:47 PM   #32
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Default Re: Death Itself

To Reach, I see where your comming from :P My dad works in an E.R and was a paramedic in NYC for 26 years, and my mom is a nurse, soo I've see plenty of things before..
As humans, it is a humans intuition to be afraid of what they dont know, consiously or subconsiously, and for this reason so many ideas spring forth from death. Take away the word and the association we give meaning to it, and we have nothing out of the ordinary, just a situation that seems to happen all the time.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: Death Itself

Its the sheer nothingness of death that scares me. Your gone, your not coming back, there nothing you can do etc. I fear death yea, however I believe this is because I don't feel like I have seen enough, learnt enough, experienced enough. I think dying unhappy is scarier than death itself. I think its natural for young (but obviously not just young, but id say mostly) people to fear death as there is so much they want to do. Also I think its because some people do not understand death, again going to the unknown. Don't get me wrong I will never do all that I've wanted before I die, hopefully though I will do the things I wanted to do the most.
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Death Itself

Just to clarify something:

There are two definitions of death: clinical and biological. If your heart stops, you are clinically dead, however the heart can be restarted since your brain is still capable of sending out signals, and is doing so.

Biological is when the brain stops. We do not yet(?) know how to restart the brain once is stops functioning, so at biological death, you are, well, dead.
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Old 07-12-2006, 05:17 PM   #35
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Default Re: Death Itself

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Originally Posted by Reach
Not to mention I'm pretty sure DMT created in your brain isn't the DMT you smoke, and they are unsure of it's effects, so I'm not sure if it would be that fun after all. Most natural DMT experiences arn't nearly as uh, exciting as some 4D techno buddah with mad lights. XD
DMT is short for Dimethyltryptamine, or to be completely specific n,n-dimethyltryptamine. Basically what you're saying is "This carbon atom is different from this carbon atom" Uhh, no. The DMT produced in your brain is the exact same DMT that you smoke. Reach, you are completely awful at doing research on this forum before you make claims.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:01 PM   #36
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Default Re: Death Itself

Funny thing is, is that I actually did do research, and it's not like I don't know what DMT is.

There is no evidence to support the effects of dmt in the brain are the same as smoking it. None. If you're going to insult me I might aswell insult you for jumping on me before doing any real research yourself other than listening to some joe roegan speculations.

I can't find any tested evidence to show any of this is involved in death trips. DMT is only speculated to be produced in the pineal gland. It's speculated to promote visual effects of natural dreaming and near death experiences.

It's speculated. Just like this big steaming pile of speculation mr I have researched everything.

Quote:
However, the moments leading up to death are pretty fun. It's basically a rush of DMT to your brain that make you trip out and go into complete mental overdrive right before your brain shuts off completely.
If there is evidence lets see it, because I havn't read it.

And by 'are not the same' I ment are not the same effects. It is now edited, and though it was obviously my fault it is not what I ment.

ps: kles, good points.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:17 PM   #37
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Hmm, izzkinda hard not to link up death w/existence after it, don't you think?

I can't lay out a case for Heaven or Hell because I'm not smart like that. Or at least, I'm not well-read on the subject. But you've gotta consider this: if they do exist then there's no need to try and figure out what it's like to not exist at all.

It's real mind-boggling to try to comprehend what death feels like since all we have to work with are life (and perhaps a few near-death) experiences. I mean, no one's come back from the dead, right? Except maybe people like Lazarus or Jesus. But that's only if you've faith in the Bible. Of course, the Bible also says that God has "set eternity in the Hearts of men," and that's what I'm banking on.

Then again, that's only if you believe in such things.

Either way, I'd rather live with the hope of believing there's a better place once I die. The alternative is dreading the end of my rope to such a point where I bring myself to it faster. Who wants that?
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: Death Itself

I've never been able to consider death as taking up a physical form or even an emotion. Death to me is simply an event which is found in the fate of every human being. I used to be like you when I was younger, constantly worried on certain nights about the very concept of death, but that fear has left me now. Everyone is bound to die at some point, and somewhere in the world, regardless of souls, or reincarnation, another will be born. I used to also be scared of the concept of nothingness that death is (if one doesn't believe in an afterlife), but I figured, I'm not scared to go to sleep every night, and unless I can distinctly remember a dream, that same state of nothingness is probably present in death. To be truthful, I fear the death of loved ones much, much more than my own death.

I read somewhere (but I doubt I will be able to find where again) that the reason some feel as though they are ascending into heaven in a near-death experience is because the brain releases certain chemicals that stimulate pleasure right before it perceives the threat of death. Is that true?
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:44 PM   #39
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Default Re: Death Itself

I believe it is a more of a mind kind thing, combined with heightened adreniline and emotions. You know, if you try hard enough you can see what you only want to see, you can hear what you only want to hear, same goes with doing what you want to do. Not in such that you break laws of physics, which is a whole other story, but deleting certain rules and blocking them out of your head allows to achieve this.
I.e. If anyone has seen the movie PI, this is taken from it..

" Hold on. You have to slow down. You're losing it. You have to take a breath. Listen to yourself. You're connecting a computer bug I had with a computer bug you might have had and some religious hogwash. You want to find the number 216 in the world, you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere."

You know, obsessing or having something pushed onto you your entire life can make you mind obsessed with this something. So for example, heaven. You believe in heaven, and your parents push you into believing it, you technically create a heaven, an image, what it will look like and such...within yourself. My guess is images like these are projected along with stimulants, if its true, will create a blissful type of experience, which people may call "heaven"
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:38 PM   #40
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Default Re: Death Itself

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Originally Posted by Reach
Funny thing is, is that I actually did do research, and it's not like I don't know what DMT is.

There is no evidence to support the effects of dmt in the brain are the same as smoking it. None. If you're going to insult me I might aswell insult you for jumping on me before doing any real research yourself other than listening to some joe roegan speculations.

I can't find any tested evidence to show any of this is involved in death trips. DMT is only speculated to be produced in the pineal gland. It's speculated to promote visual effects of natural dreaming and near death experiences.

It's speculated. Just like this big steaming pile of speculation mr I have researched everything.

If there is evidence lets see it, because I havn't read it.

And by 'are not the same' I ment are not the same effects. It is now edited, and though it was obviously my fault it is not what I ment.

ps: kles, good points.
I never said it was produced in the pineal gland, however, it is produced naturally by the body in much lower amounts than you generally smoke when you trip. Of course the effects are different, the dosage is different but not the substance.

Furthermore:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_writings2.shtml

"DMT has been found to occur naturally in mammalian brains (Barker [4] and Christian [171). "Indolealkylamines... are the only known hallucinogenic agents whose endogenous occurrence in mammals, including man, has been confirmed" (McKenna [67]). Szara [114]says that it 'seems that the whole enzymatic apparatus exists in mammals which can produce tryptamine from tryptophane, DMT from tryptamine and 6- HDMT [the probably hallucinogenic 6-hydroxy-DMT] from DMT.'"
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