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Old 04-12-2005, 04:11 AM   #21
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Ok, I have one quick question to ask before I go away for three days... The answer to this might make what I say in the future on related topics a little more correct than if I didn't ask this.

As I have mentioned above many times, I haven't covered alot, but I know a little bit of things I haven't covered. One thing I am unsure of is if space is filled with "quantum foam". I don't know what this is, what it does, but I have heard about it. Also, is quantum foam matter? I cannot find anything on the net that answers that question fully, or that doesn't answer it in terms I can understand. If someone could answer me this, that would greatly increase the validity of future posts by me in these topics.
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Old 04-12-2005, 04:17 AM   #22
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Philotic connections.
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Old 04-12-2005, 04:42 AM   #23
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Hmm, I've heard the term before, Brady, but I'm not certain I'm sure what it is.

My guess is that it refers to the seething sea of quantum activity that goes on in supposedly empty space. The vacuum energy gives rise to the creation (and subsequent annihilations) of all sorts of particle/antiparticle pairs and other quanta. All this takes place nearly instantaneously, but it has manifestations, like in the Casimir effect. The Casimir effect is the warping of spacetime using the virtual particles that exist in the vacuum but can't be observed by conventional means.

I could very well be wrong, but whatever.

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Old 04-12-2005, 09:58 AM   #24
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I HAVE ALL OF YOUR ANSWERS, MY YOUNG WANNA BE ASTROPHYSICISTS.

As I have said before, READ THE BOOKS I RECOMMENDED. Those 2 books will answer ALL of your questions and then some.

Quickly: The universe CAN NOT be accelerating or deccelerating. Think of it as a tight-rope walker, walking on his rope for eternity (or, like, 10 billion years). If he sways one little bit on the entire trip, he falls. The same is true for the universe. If the expansion speed does not remain constant, 2 things would happen. 1. Big Crush. 2. Acceleration into extremity... aka, everything would be infinately far apart from everything else.

Quickly: Quantom Foam = EXTREMELY small sub-atomic "stuff", slightly larger than the Plank size (Plank size is the smallest anything can possibly be). this stuff is supposed to be like a tiny foamy ocean that has the potential to be time warps. From what I remember, it can't even be proven that Quantom Foam exists... and certainly it can't be proven that it acts as a time warp.
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Old 04-12-2005, 11:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasselfoot
Quickly: The universe CAN NOT be accelerating or deccelerating. Think of it as a tight-rope walker, walking on his rope for eternity (or, like, 10 billion years). If he sways one little bit on the entire trip, he falls. The same is true for the universe. If the expansion speed does not remain constant, 2 things would happen. 1. Big Crush. 2. Acceleration into extremity... aka, everything would be infinately far apart from everything else.
So why are those two things impossible?

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Old 04-12-2005, 12:30 PM   #26
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Oh. Because it already would have happened by now. There has been billions of years that the universe has expanded. Clearly, nothing has yet shown that there are signs of expansion slowing down. Plus, it likely would have already reached its apex growth and begun its contraction by now... Big Crush has pretty generally been regarded as not what is or will happen.

So, to tackle the fun part of what we've been talking about... accerating. Please explain to me what new force is being exerted NOW, after billions of years, that has just started the universe to accelerate, when it hasn't been after the first few nanoseconds of history. We have to assume that any acceleration would have been taking place over the entire course of universal expansion... which when calculated out, would result in what I said above, everything would be infinately far apart from everything else. Clearly, that isn't the case. Therefore, we have our tight-rope walker... he is carefully traveling across his rope at a constant rate, not wavering to one side or the other, and we have a constant velocity to the expansion of the universe.

For the nth time, read Faster than the speed of light. It is a VERY interesting discussion, isn't considered mainstream at the moment, but as far as I know, provides the best theory for Big Bang expansion as far as accuracy to present day conditions and knowns of the past.
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Old 04-12-2005, 01:13 PM   #27
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While I hate to argue against someone who is clearly more informed than me in this area, I feel like I should throw in my own ideas. I doubt that the outer edge of the universe is accelerating, but rather we are decelerating. It could be (this is more of a wild guess than a theory) that the force of gravity closer to the center of the universe is slowing down matter in general. So because we are moving slower, it appears to us that the edge of the universe is accelerating, even though it's still moving at the same speed.

And about Tass' logic on why the universe can't be accelerating or decelerating: you say that the universe can't be accelerating or decelerating because there has been no evidence to prove it, even though the basis of most ideas on this topic is that the evidence stated in the first post is credible.

PS - what would you say is the reading level of Faster than the speed of light? It looks interesting, so maybe I'll try reading it sometime.
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Old 04-12-2005, 01:33 PM   #28
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I'd say its advanced high school or college... but, that is the nature of the material. It is not a simple subject matter, and I recommend you know the basics of relativity before reading it.

And matt... that is the logic of those who are much wiser than I. I'm guessing its because its either impossible or extremely difficult to prove the nature of the cosmos....... plus, as I said, if the universe was accelerating or decelerating, the effects would be obvious. Since they aren't, it isn't happening. In addition, the reason that the universe ISN'T decelerating is from the initial force of the Big Bang. That is the force that is counter-acting gravity.

While your guess is a decent idea, it is in clear violation of the laws of physics.

As I said, it is accepted by the greatest minds in this field that the universe is not accelerating or decelerating. The reason as to WHY is what they all can't prove. And again, I feel, as do others wiser than myself, that FttSoL is the best explanation as to WHY, even though it violates the most time old principle of physics, a constant speed of light. Then again, he only says that there was a VSL in the nanoseconds after the Big Band, after which light slowed down to what we now know it as. Only through the VSL does the current nature of the universe make sense. The tight-rope walker example is not mine, its from the book.
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Old 04-12-2005, 01:50 PM   #29
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Point 1, The theory that the universe is expanding and accelerating is very well accepted. Point 2, That theory is also very widely not accepted.

My theory, The universe that is "expanding" is already there. It takes time for light to get here, yeah my theory is easily disproven but w/e, and we constantly see more and more universe, because the light is just now getting to us. The fact that objects traveling in space stay at a constant speed is irrelevant to space. The rules of the universe only apply to things inside the universe. As for the point of all this, who knows. Up until the last 700 years, the world was flat to our knowledge, 100 years ago we learned how to fly, 50 years ago we were in space, ten years 20 years ago we discovered aids, and now we have quantum computing, who knows which theory will win the race to be the "right" one.

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Old 04-12-2005, 09:15 PM   #30
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One, You can't say something is impossible just because it hasn't happend yet. Two, We don't know how old the universe is. Three, we don't know how old it will get.

Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it so. The fact of the matter is, that's what seems to be happening. If our observations are showing something that the laws of phsyics say can't happen, then either the observations are inncorrect or the laws need to be modified to explain them. Like I said before science changes and grows as we learn more. Phsyics can't explain everything, therefore it's not 100% complete, there is room for emprovment.

I did explain before why this force wouldn't manfest itself untill later in the development of the universe, the matter wasn't far enough away yet. In my hypothesis I suggested that gravity had two sides and they were based on the distance between matter. I'm not saying that's right, but it did answer your question on why it hadn't happened earlier.

Oh and before we found that it wasn't happening the universe could easily be decelerating! Just because it's not yet, why do you assume that it has to do it right this minute? How do you know that the universe isn't still in it's begining stages? Even though it's billions of years old how do you know it won't be around for tens of trillions of years more?

Also if you define void outside the universe as I have then the universe is expanding at the speed of light.
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Old 04-12-2005, 10:39 PM   #31
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I responded to your PM. I'm done trying to discuss this with brick walls.
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Old 04-14-2005, 01:20 AM   #32
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http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101accel.html

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101shape.html Supporting evidence...

This isn't where I had originally heard this from. But it's saying the same thing that I was trying to get at.

Note this paragraph from the top link
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Very recently it has become practical for astronomers to observe very bright rare stars called supernova in an effort to measure how much the universal expansion has slowed over the last few billion years. Surprisingly, the results of these observations indicate that the universal expansion is speeding up, or accelerating! While these results should be considered preliminary, they raise the possibility that the universe contains a bizarre form of matter or energy that is, in effect, gravitationally repulsive. The cosmological constant is an example of this type of energy. Much work remains to elucidate this mystery!
Also this one from the botton link
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However, the results of the WMAP mission and observations of distant supernova have suggested that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating which implies the existence of a form of matter with a strong negative pressure, such as the cosmological constant. This strange form of matter is also sometimes referred to as the "dark energy". If dark energy in fact plays a significant role in the evolution of the universe, then in all likelihood the universe will continue to expand forever.
I'm not trying to say that's what's happening for sure, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss. Even with brick walls.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:05 AM   #33
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If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.... but, you do understand my tight-rope theory, right? If the universe is accelerating, it wouldn't have just started now out of nowhere, it would have been accelerating for billions of years. Even the most minute acceleration dragged out of billions of years would equate to an unbelievably fast acceleration now, and the complete seperation of galaxies, which isn't true.

I hold by my theory.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:27 PM   #34
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I don't think that's necessarally true. It would build up unbelievably fast speed but maybe not very fast acceleration. I understand the tight rope theory (I think) but if it still expanding at a constant unchanging rate, it will expand forever and thin out and die just like you said would happen. Plus why hasn't that happen yet? J/K If you think that nothing lasts forever, and there is no god then why can't the universe be heading for disaster? I don't know if god is out there or if we made him/her up, but I do think that eventually the entire universe will come to and end. Maybe there is some grand system in place that will start everything over and over. Maybe this is the one shot that life in the cosmos gets I don't know. I think it's at least a possibility that the universe will die out.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:51 PM   #35
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That post made no sense... The constant expanding (constant velocity, acc=0) translates to the universe in which we now know and observe. That is what all the empirical evidence has shown since the invention and implamentation of space telescopes. Do you not get what acceleration means? It means the rate (velocity) or the expansion is ever increasing... so, it starts out at 100, 1000 years later it is 101, etc... spread that over 10 billion years, and we're at 10 million from 100 over the course of the universe. That is HUGE change... something that would result in a much different universe than we currently have.

I hope that explains my point better, because your last post makes me think that you aren't understanding what I'm saying.
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Old 04-14-2005, 09:32 PM   #36
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No I get what you meant to say. You probably meant to say speed not acceleration the second time.

But if you look at what you actually wrote you should understand my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasselfoot
Even the most minute acceleration dragged out of billions of years would equate to an unbelievably fast acceleration now...
I was just saying that the speed would build up not the accelleration.
Plus the other thing is I think that the acceleration could be almost zero, like you start at 100 then after billion years it's 1000. I'm not saying that everything is flying apart at the seams. I'm saying that it's ever so slightly going faster. right now it's like 6000 then in a billion more years it'll be 7000.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:39 PM   #37
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yes. i meant velocity the 2nd place where i said acceleration... and, frankly, we're at the point where there is no answers, only theories.

you have yours, i have mine. i generally feel that i'm right until proven wrong, so... gl with that.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:44 PM   #38
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Wonderful, you have my full respect. I really didn't expect any answers, I just think it's fun to think about.
-edit-
http://www.answers.com/topic/ultimat...f-the-universe

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...2_1&sbid=lc03b

A couple more links for those of us still interested.
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Old 04-25-2005, 12:11 PM   #39
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Exit Mundi has some stuff on this. Okay, so it mainly has to do with how the universe is going to be destroyed, but whatever.

The universe is a four-dimensional Hypersphere, muah.
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Old 04-25-2005, 12:41 PM   #40
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Knight, you've been a member here for well over a year, and you finally make a post... and it sucks.

This is CT forum. If you don't have a comment that is appropriate for CT, then don't post it here.

Also, read the forum rules... this thread is RIGHT on the edge of being dead. I was pretty sure it was... aka, don't post in dead topics.
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