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Old 09-4-2004, 04:11 PM   #21
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Abortion can't be decided through math or economics, therefore I won't bother. I can't take a side until I'm in that situation. It's not part of the topic though. I will now slink away and go to the social fairness threads.

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Old 09-4-2004, 04:26 PM   #22
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(edit)I should read more often.

btw, I wasn't making it into an 'Abortion' thread.
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Old 09-4-2004, 05:42 PM   #23
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Read my medical journals? It's rather evident that you haven't.

"The changes occurring between implantation, a six-weeks embryo, a six-months fetus, a one-week- old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. "The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life." - Dr. J.C. Willke, First International Symposium On Abortion

In addition, the U.S. Senate considered a bill called the "Human Life Bill" in 1981. I take this from the official Senate report, 97th Congress, S-158: "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception [they defined fertilization and conception to be the same] marks the beginning of the life of a human being — a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." (p. 7)

On pp. 7-9, the report lists a "limited sample" of 13 medical textbooks, all of which state that the life of an individual human being begins at conception.

On pp. 9-10, the report quotes several authorities who personally testified:

- Professor J. Lejeune, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down’s Syndrome: "Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

- Professor W. Bowes, University of Colorado: Be-ginning of human life? — "at conception."

- Professor H. Gordon, Mayo Clinic: "It is an established fact that human life begins at conception."

- Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University: "It is scientifically correct to say that individual human life begins at conception."

Now, I'm not going to pretend that ths went unopposed. Yes, there were witnesses that claimed that the human being does not begin at conception. The report comments as such:

"Those witnesses who testified that science cannot say whether unborn children are human beings were speaking in every instance to the value question rather than the scientific question. No witness raised any evidence to refute the biological fact that from the moment of human conception there exists a distinct individual being who is alive and is of the human species."

You refer to masturbating as killing potential human beings, and you're right. It is. But after sperm and egg have joined, there is no more "potential" human being. There is a human being.

I would write more on this issue but my wireless keyboard is giving me issues.
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Old 09-4-2004, 05:55 PM   #24
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I hate politics, they ruin everything
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Old 09-4-2004, 06:33 PM   #25
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so... why aren't fetuses counted in census records, or still-borns considered among the lists of dead for human statistics, etc... if they are human beings, the same as you or me.
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Old 09-4-2004, 06:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardish
...the U.S. Senate considered a bill called the "Human Life Bill" in 1981. I take this from the official Senate report, 97th Congress, S-158: "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception [they defined fertilization and conception to be the same] marks the beginning of the life of a human being — a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." (p. 7)

You refer to masturbating as killing potential human beings, and you're right. It is. But after sperm and egg have joined, there is no more "potential" human being. There is a human being.
Are you aware that for every scientist who can use the evidence out of a medical textbook showing that life begins at conception, there is another who can quote the SAME PASSAGE and show the opposite? Science is based on what supports your own hypothesis, and the Senate just used those scientists who could claim that it did.

Also, there are innumerable times when, after a sperm and egg have already joined, for some reason the zygote doesn't implant in the uterus. The woman never knows she was pregnant at all; it flushes out of her just like any other waste material. Are you saying these women are wrong for having a natural abortion that they never knew about?

Okay, so a zygote is a living creature. But it's not a human being yet, and doesn't need to be treated as one. Listen to George Carlin's abortion sketch. He is rude and crude about it, but he makes very good points.
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Old 09-4-2004, 07:44 PM   #27
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Science, Orli, is based on proving your hypothesis wrong until you have no choice but prove it right. You can't use scientific passages like you described unless you have evidence against it. That means cold hard evidence. He has it. I can trust him more, no offense. Read any Junior High textbook and it'll have the scientific method listed in at least one chapter.

I do think that you two are putting up a decent fight, but I also think that both sides should drop it. This is about the ladder theory, not abortion or the rights of unborn fetuses(feti?...joke). If you can prove the ladder theory wrong or right, fine. Unfortunately you can argue ideals all day about abortion and never come up with a solution to the dilemma. This is all you can hope for...until you can learn to put human life into a money value (all potential earnings, good deeds, joy, and pleasure the person gives and recieves minus all the hate, spite, destruction etc. the person causes.) I value mine at around...2 million. That's what I'd pay to stay alive and out of suffering. Don't say it's stupid to put money value on life, it's a logical way of thinking and a perfectly ok way of thinking.

Ok, I'll drop it. Any questions, take it to PMs. Just no more abortions.

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Old 09-5-2004, 12:54 AM   #28
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Better debaters than you have tried me at the abortion debate and lost.

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...ewtopic&t=5855

Every living being has a species. If the unborn child is not of the species homo sapiens then what is it? You're attempting to redefine biology here.

It's not a wrongdoing when unborn child accidentally dies (through failure to implant itself, or miscarriage, or something). It's as "wrong" as natural death. That's the natural selection you should be thinking about. Darwinism doesn't apply when willful manslaughter gets thrown into the picture.

And no...you're wrong about not being able to find any scientific proof. The Senate report said that the people who were saying that an unborn child is not a human being had no scientific proof, and rather were just trying to turn it into a question of values. The people of science, on the other hand, had proof that unborn children are human beings.

Values don't enter into science, milady.
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Old 09-5-2004, 02:03 AM   #29
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Actually, Darwinism still kicks in. Those who are most willful to commit manslaughter will survive. Those who don't die. Most helpless die, least helpless survive. When the babies are helpless they are subject to Darwinism.

And don't bother on this. I already said why. When you give me numbers, it's worthwhile. Until them, arguing ideals against ideals just isn't worth it. On to the actual topic.

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Old 09-5-2004, 08:19 PM   #30
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Heres a novel idea. Think of what could happen...

a) woman who cant support herself, much less a child, gets pregnant
b) woman is convinced out of an abortion
c) woman has child, and is even poorer now
d) baby lives shitty life

Only one of many possibilities my friend.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:39 AM   #31
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Did you know that every year in America there are over 2 million couples on the waiting list for adoptions who cannot adopt because there are not enough babies put up for adoption?

Did you know that every year in America there are over 1.7 million abortions?

Sounds like that problem takes care of itself.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:50 AM   #32
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We're all going to die at one point or another.

In almost 20 years of retrospect, I think I would've rather died not knowing the world. >_>
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Old 09-6-2004, 09:26 AM   #33
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My opinion on abortion: It's the woman's body and she makes the descision. I don't think it is up to the government to decide whether a woman has to have the baby or not.
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Old 09-6-2004, 11:08 AM   #34
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chardish, youd be surprised at the amount of women who would rather have an abortion then give their baby up for adoption. Before the woman has the child, she is more likely to say she will give it up for adoption, but after she goes through all that, she is MUCH less likely to actually give it up.
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Old 09-6-2004, 04:46 PM   #35
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Oh cool, another abortion thread. Lets all bicker about killing babies. Oh wait, this is the relationship thread. I guess that means you are all off topic.

I agree more with the ladder theory than with Arch, simply because the situations that I have been in follow the LT.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:04 PM   #36
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It's every woman's choice whether or not they wish to get pregnant. After a man and woman have created new life, though, they don't have this 9-month "grace period" where they should be allowed to undo their decision. Think of the life of the baby. The reason women have a hard time giving a baby up for adoption is because they realize what an amazing thing procreation is.

Would it be hard to give the baby up? Yes. If you asked the women "Do you wish you had killed your child while he was still in your womb?" I can say with certainty the answer would be no.

Sex doesn't come without consequences, and abortion exists because people are too irresponsible or too hedonistic to accept this. But in the end, we must choose the loving option for our children.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:10 PM   #37
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What if the woman get's pregnant by accident and is too young, still in school, and still has a life to lead. I am not saying that I am pro-abortion or against abortion. I think it should be up to the woman. It is her body and her life. You think it is unfair to the baby...I think it is unfair to the woman. She should not have the government interfere with whether she chooses abortion or not. Like make a law against abortion. That would be unfair to many women.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:17 PM   #38
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What if raising your 6 year old is ruining your life? Should we just kill any of our dependents who are inconveniences to us?
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:19 PM   #39
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A six year old is not the same as an un-born baby. That was a dumb analogy.
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Old 09-6-2004, 08:33 PM   #40
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If a woman is stupid enough to get pregnant by accident, then raising the child should be her punishment for being the stupid cow that she is.

I guess you regret not wearing that condom NOW, don't you bitch?
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