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View Poll Results: Your beliefs?
I am a Theist 9 30.00%
I am an Atheist 14 46.67%
I am Agnostic 7 23.33%
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:52 AM   #21
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He probably ran the first big-assed Burger King, which he used to finance his infinite kingdom. How did he get the cows? Through the sacrafice. And he's so rich off of the Burger King, that he doesn't need money! It's all very logical and takes no leaps of faith at all!

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Old 08-21-2004, 12:55 AM   #22
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Yes, yes. Of course. His domain now lies in White Castle.
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:58 AM   #23
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That HAS to be it.
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:24 AM   #24
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Let's not mock others' faith now. This was (and still is) meant to be an intelligent discussion. I do find the Burger King analogy pretty humerous, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer
LOL That was hilarious. Yes those were some crazy times but as Christians we understand that sacrificing a cow in this day and age is just weird. So we give tithes. Giving 10% of your money to God every Sunday is better than slicing open a cow and burning its entrails O_o
Why is this? Why is the "One True Religion" always changing? It was a vital part of the faith 2000 years ago to sacrafice animals, as well as many other things that, in this day and age, are unheard of. And paying tithes are in no way comparable to the sensless slaughter of life. In my opinion, if something's life is ended, one should end it with purpose, even if it is only to sustain our life. It goes to show how religion is influenced so much by society. Controlled by 'God?' Supposedly...

~NEO
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistent_One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
Last I checked, you were the one that started off the thread stating something as fact that is very much an opinion.
Do you mean that my title is an opinion, or that my opening statement, "The way I see it," (A.K.A. "In my opinion") is an opinion (because it is obviously so)? The first line was stated as an opinion to give the argument a basis to start from. You still need to be more specific and explain to me what you mean. Tell me exactly what my opinionated statement is, and I will be glad to clear it up. Try not to answer with only one sentence--it will then be easier for me to understand. I'm sorry if I am being more trouble than it's worth, but I think there is a misunderstanding.
I really think that you like to present your arguements as entirely factual even though they are opinions, and that anything relatively non-serious must be eliminated to present a good arguement.

I also believe you're probably a relatively unhappy person at most times, or at least empty. I could go on for a long time about my own little hypothesis for just about anything, but I've long since given up because no one else wants to hear it.

You must realize that everything you've even bothered to say in this thread has been said a zillion and a half times, at this very site? That's one reason I'm coming across as bored and not really arguing. I've been there, done that, with people that actually bothered to listen and understand my side. You're not worth my time. In fact, I've spent way too much time with this post already.

Good day, sir, and God bless.
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Old 08-21-2004, 06:39 AM   #26
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So, Laharl, just because someone chooses not to believe in your God, they must be unhappy or empty inside? Listen, I lost my invisible friend with I was 7. It was the Velvatine Rabbit. And I also learned about him from a book. But sometimes, you just have to let go.

And I don't feel empty or sad at any point. Except last night at "Garden State". Part of that made me cry.

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Old 08-21-2004, 08:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrESqueek
...it will never be proven or disproven that such a being can exist.
Wow. How can you say that?
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Old 08-21-2004, 09:06 AM   #28
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why does god need money?
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:49 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
I really think that you like to present your arguements as entirely factual even though they are opinions, and that anything relatively non-serious must be eliminated to present a good arguement.

I also believe you're probably a relatively unhappy person at most times, or at least empty. I could go on for a long time about my own little hypothesis for just about anything, but I've long since given up because no one else wants to hear it.

You must realize that everything you've even bothered to say in this thread has been said a zillion and a half times, at this very site? That's one reason I'm coming across as bored and not really arguing. I've been there, done that, with people that actually bothered to listen and understand my side. You're not worth my time. In fact, I've spent way too much time with this post already.

Good day, sir, and God bless.
You do understand that your argument is also opinionated, don't you? You are critisizing my argument for being supposedly the same way, and yet you are guilty of it yourself. You still have not explained how my argument is opinionated. Your argument will not be valid to me until you directly explain exactly what you mean, and stop avoiding specifics to make it seem like you have one bit of validity.

Are you trying to tell me that 'God' being omnimax is an opinion? Explain to me how it could be any other way, and I'll consider it. But if that's not what you mean, then I suggest you directly state your problem with my post.

Also, it is a horrible fallacy to conclude that, just because I don't put my beliefs into illogical but comforting things, I am an unhappy/'empty' person. I have to admit that I was slightly irritated at this statement, because it is a totally false assumption/steriotype. I do not need an invisible, all-powerful friend to keep me happy. I do not rely on illogical comforts, but rather, I take pride in my ability to overcome such irrational thinking.

I searched through the critical thinking forum for a post that was even similar to mine. I looked to see if anyone had posted about this specific topic--the definition of 'God'--and I did not find one. If it has been brought up before, it deserves to be re-posted, because it is something that is still debatable--I doubt it reached a definite conclusion before. This is a 'discussion' forum, right? Just because you have discussed this before doesn't mean that it cannot be discussed by others. Either you share your views, and be willing to debate them, or you don't--at all.

Like the very begining of my post states--you must have common ground to start an argument from; yet you have not given me a specific thing to debate (regarding my 'opinionated' argument), therefore you have wasted my time.

I don't mean to make enemies, and I had hoped that this discussion remain civil. Please show me that you can have a healthy, valid argument, and I will be glad to debate in a friendly manner. I will 'bother to understand' your side if you give me reason to; I swear it.

May good consequence show you favor. (that's my version of 'God bless')

~NEO
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Old 08-21-2004, 04:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistent_One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
I really think that you like to present your arguements as entirely factual even though they are opinions, and that anything relatively non-serious must be eliminated to present a good arguement.

I also believe you're probably a relatively unhappy person at most times, or at least empty. I could go on for a long time about my own little hypothesis for just about anything, but I've long since given up because no one else wants to hear it.

You must realize that everything you've even bothered to say in this thread has been said a zillion and a half times, at this very site? That's one reason I'm coming across as bored and not really arguing. I've been there, done that, with people that actually bothered to listen and understand my side. You're not worth my time. In fact, I've spent way too much time with this post already.

Good day, sir, and God bless.
You do understand that your argument is also opinionated, don't you? You are critisizing my argument for being supposedly the same way, and yet you are guilty of it yourself. You still have not explained how my argument is opinionated. Your argument will not be valid to me until you directly explain exactly what you mean, and stop avoiding specifics to make it seem like you have one bit of validity.
YES I REALIZE THAT. Have you not noticed that I'm not even arguing your point? You first started to criticize me for being opinionated, so I'm telling you you've been the same way. Follow?

Quote:
Are you trying to tell me that 'God' being omnimax is an opinion? Explain to me how it could be any other way, and I'll consider it. But if that's not what you mean, then I suggest you directly state your problem with my post.
Omnimax is your definition of perfect, correct? It's what you feel God should be. Why must God meet your expectations of what he SHOULD be if he's already something else?

Quote:
Also, it is a horrible fallacy to conclude that, just because I don't put my beliefs into illogical but comforting things, I am an unhappy/'empty' person. I have to admit that I was slightly irritated at this statement, because it is a totally false assumption/steriotype. I do not need an invisible, all-powerful friend to keep me happy. I do not rely on illogical comforts, but rather, I take pride in my ability to overcome such irrational thinking.
Hence my point entirely. I have a feeling you don't exactly get along with anyone. Love is irrational, but it's one of the most pleasurable feelings on earth. Do you push away that "illogical comfort" as well?

Quote:
I searched through the critical thinking forum for a post that was even similar to mine. I looked to see if anyone had posted about this specific topic--the definition of 'God'--and I did not find one. If it has been brought up before, it deserves to be re-posted, because it is something that is still debatable--I doubt it reached a definite conclusion before. This is a 'discussion' forum, right? Just because you have discussed this before doesn't mean that it cannot be discussed by others. Either you share your views, and be willing to debate them, or you don't--at all.
Maybe the extreme utter loathign I have for people much like yourself isn't coming through at all?

People like you make me tired, to the core, to my very inner soul. Leave those of us that believe alone, please. Just go away and do your own thing. If someone jumps down your throat with their own belifs about a God, feel free to banter and argue with them. At one point in time, religion was a topic that was not to be discussed at FFR because it's a touchy subject.

Quote:
Like the very begining of my post states--you must have common ground to start an argument from; yet you have not given me a specific thing to debate (regarding my 'opinionated' argument), therefore you have wasted my time.
Creating rules for a topic on an open-discussion internet forum unless you're an admin or moderator is foolish.

And I'm glad to have wasted your time. It's been an honor.

Quote:
I don't mean to make enemies, and I had hoped that this discussion remain civil. Please show me that you can have a healthy, valid argument, and I will be glad to debate in a friendly manner. I will 'bother to understand' your side if you give me reason to; I swear it.
I was once cabable of having a good, healthy arguement, and then some stuff happened, and my mind isn't quite what it used to be. I am no longer capable of doing much in a friendly manner. It happens when life decides to throw you an unlucky hand when it comes to the chemistry that creates your brain.

I tell you what I do here, for reasons I don't even know. I'm probably just mostly talking for the sake of talking. I honestly don't even know.

Quote:
May good consequence show you favor. (that's my version of 'God bless')

~NEO
I never say God Bless in all seriousness. I did it mostly to poke under your skin.
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Old 08-21-2004, 04:21 PM   #31
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Well, God hates you both. I say hate because I know God doesn't ever hate, he hates the sin, not the sinner (except gays). You're both prideful, and dicks. Settle down. Get it back on topic before this gets locked, you arrogant cods.

Mal
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Old 08-21-2004, 04:32 PM   #32
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...well, I admit that I am prideful, but that wasn't very civil yourself... Anyways, I'm only trying to understand his argument, that's all. To have a discussion, you must understand the opposing viewpoint...

~NEO
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Old 08-21-2004, 08:57 PM   #33
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I'm not going for civil here; you two are fighting over petty semantics. And I think it's mainly because Laharl can't think of a good arguement contrary to yours, and you can't think of anything else to prove your point. But that's just my take on things.

Mal
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Old 08-21-2004, 09:22 PM   #34
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I don't want to get into this arguement, but just know, Laharl didn't enter this thread to debate the content of the thread creator's post, but rather his approach to his point, and the post in general.
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Old 08-21-2004, 11:53 PM   #35
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There are two schools of thought on the irrationality of theories of god. The first is that god defies logic. Fine. The second is that god is made up, and that is why it is illogical. I plan to expound further on this second theory; there really isn't much to expound upon on the first theory (more thought was given to the second, which is why there is much more detail).

The Creation of God

Acoording to Daniel Quinn, author and philosopher, man created god as we know it today around the time he developed agriculture. A hunter-gatherer lifestyle requires expending of calories to get food, water and shelter in a 1:5 ratio. Spend 1 calorie, get 5 calories. Spend 200 calories, get 1000 calories. Now, agriculture was a bit harder. 2 calories gained per 1 calorie spent. Life was hard. So, in order to bring purpose and hope into their lives, the people began inventing tales of a great god who created them and a wonderful afterlife to look forward to. It stuck. Another quirk of this culture was that it required everyone else to do it, too. So, the Totalitarianists set out converting everyone else. Soon, the majority of the world was Totalitarianist. Not all of them followed Christ; Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Jewish faiths are other major totalitarianist faiths.

Of course, there was god before agriculture. When prehistoric humans asked themselves the big questions, like "Who created us?" and "Why are we here?", they were unable to answer them. They began forming theories about a great God who created the universe to satisfy these burning questions.

The Salvation of God by Man

Well into the second millenium of Totalitarianism, God lives. Despite the outdating of theories of God by more plausible theories of the Big Bang and Darwinism, God lives. I believe this is because life is still quite hard and people still like the idea of a higher purpose and a glorious afterlife. That, combined with millenia of social inertia, has caused theories of god to still be quite popular, despite all logic. Which brings me back to my original point, which is that God is an illogical fantasy.
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalReynolds
he hates the sin, not the sinner (except gays).
Let me point out a few issues with this:

- How do you know that 'god' hates gay folks? No one has any means of finding this out.

- Your bible says that God hates no one. Contradiction!

- You refer to gay folks as a group; 'gays'. How about I refer to you simply as a 'Catholic'? Stereotypes are bad.

- There is nothing wrong with being gay. Chimapnzees participate in male homoerotic sexplay to keep the males from tearing each other apart. Our genes are 99% identical to Chimpanzee genes. And no we are not 'above' homoerotic tendencies. They are hardwired into our brains as much as heteroerotic tendencies are, and everyone has at least some level of them in them. In fact, sexual orientations are completely mutable, if you put your mind to it. I've changed several times. I could even go so far as to say that we would all be bisexual if not for our society implying to us at an early age that homosexuality is bad*. In face of all this, how can you possibly say that homosexuality is bad.

- The only reason you think homosexuality is bad is because it makes you uncomfortable; you project that homophobia onto your god subconsciously as justification to yoursellf and others for hating homosexuality.



*Most societies make homosexuality a taboo. This is due to the group psychology principle, through which one person or entity of power or esteem (in this case the church) begins thinking something (in this case that homosexuality is bad), and the followers, incapable of or not allowed to think for themselves, begin thinking the same way. The idea is inherited, and eventually becomes fact in the eyes of those victimized by this pattern. Some societies do not accept the idea that homosexuality is bad, such as the ancient Greeks. It would be a great pleasure to go into great detail about the widely accepted kinky behavior of the ancient Greeks, but I shall not.
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:32 AM   #37
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MalReynolds was being sarcastic.

Extremely sarcastic.

How did you not catch that?
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:49 AM   #38
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I love you mal.
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Old 08-22-2004, 12:54 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogy
MalReynolds was being sarcastic.

Extremely sarcastic.

How did you not catch that?
Grr. Sorry Mal. Don't ever do that again, please. I never catch sarcasm.
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Old 08-22-2004, 01:00 AM   #40
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Oh man, I'll be sure never to use sarcasm on the internet ever again. Just for you.

Mal
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