Old 07-6-2009, 12:14 PM   #21
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

I get what you are saying until you started on the foundation of Christianity.

What will I have problems explaining as literally true? Creation is one of the few examples I can understand your point of view. I mean creation to me is defiantly a grey area. Personally I black and white I can logically know that God literally created the universe. I have trouble trying to discern how much of Genesis is literal. However I do feel that the main point of Genesis is not lost to much on the literal meaning.
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Old 07-6-2009, 12:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp View Post
Afro, alot of your post seems to be rather close minded and an attack at religion in general and an attack at my credibility and the credibility of what is at hand. I don't see why this argument has to be personal.
I'm not attacking religion at all. All I've said is that it's based on faith rather than logic and to attempt a logic argument in favor of OR AGAINST is to entirely miss the point of religion.

If you interpret that as an attack, then I submit that you do not understand your faith or the difference between the function of faith and the function of reason. If you see me calling creationism psuedoscience as an attack on religion, you really don't get it.

The closest thing to an attack against religion was when I tried to point you to humanistic atheism. But I was being totally sincere. You seem to desire something out of religion but still want to adhere to logic and reason. That would allow you to do so and would also not leave you in a position such as this, trying to claim how reasoned your position is when the fact is that all that you argue for is based on a foundation of unverifiable faith. Build logic around it all you want, but it all starts with faith in the unverifiable.

Quote:
That quote you have taken there was after the proof of causality, the proof that the universe and time need a beginning, from there I expanded on the idea that if something created time, the creator of time can not be part of time and thus can't be created.

Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument. It's just simple logical look at the need for there to be something outside of the universe. You don't need to tie it to Christianity.
My point still stands that you're taking God as a given. By taking that as a given, you're starting with a leap of faith and attempting to build logic around it. That's not bad in and of itself, but to claim that the entire thing is logical for that is wrong. You started with a seed of faith, but you overlooked that somewhere along the way.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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I'm not attacking religion at all. All I've said is that it's based on faith rather than logic and to attempt a logic argument in favor of OR AGAINST is to entirely miss the point of religion.

If you interpret that as an attack, then I submit that you do not understand your faith or the difference between the function of faith and the function of reason. If you see me calling creationism psuedoscience as an attack on religion, you really don't get it.
Sorry, I obviously generalized your post quite a bit. But it did feel more ranty then logical. I may have been wrong.

How is trying to think about faith logically against religion? I think logic is incredibly important to religion. How can I fully engage in a relationship with a God that I do not logically understand? Dosn't a belief with logic behind it mean so much more then an empty belief?

Obviously belief in a faith can not come purely from logic, but in no way do I believe that true faith should be illogical.

My original topic of discussion was the idea that we are created with the ability to comprehend logic for a reason. I wanted to hear what you guys think of that notion. I am curious if you see the ability to discern logic as just evolutionary.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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I get what you are saying until you started on the foundation of Christianity.

What will I have problems explaining as literally true? Creation is one of the few examples I can understand your point of view. I mean creation to me is defiantly a grey area. Personally I black and white I can logically know that God literally created the universe. I have trouble trying to discern how much of Genesis is literal. However I do feel that the main point of Genesis is not lost to much on the literal meaning.
Creation was just one example, but you're going to have problems with any part of the bible. Given this isn't a religious discussion, I don't want to get into specifics, but I will reiterate my argument in a slightly different way: There are certain defining features of Christianity, obviously. They are necessary in order to differentiate between Christianity and other religions, and therefore they would *necessarily* need to be true if you wanted to demonstrate it was a universally true world view.

The problem is you can show almost nothing in the bible to be empirically true. The original Hebrew texts have been translated and re-translated numerous times, so to begin with it's hard to even identify what pieces of scripture could be considered the word of God and which are man made manipulations. Not all of the original Hebrew is understood to begin with.

Also, there is no way to differentiate between which parts of the bible are allegorical and which parts are literal. The only way you'd be able to demonstrate anything would be to take a literal interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but obviously you can't do that because you can empirically demonstrate numerous claims in the bible to be false, so if it were true it can't be literal.

And thus begins the endless circle I described. The very reason people continue to debate this issue. There is no way of demonstrating Christianity to be correct and attempting to do so leads to problem after problem.


That's not to say we can't continue to deepen our understanding of the universe around us, whether it be through an entirely scientific perspective or a theological one. I know for me personally, it is the understanding of the universe and the truth it contains that is important to me, not which criteria this truth happens to meet.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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Sorry, I obviously generalized your post quite a bit. But it did feel more ranty then logical. I may have been wrong.

How is trying to think about faith logically against religion? I think logic is incredibly important to religion. How can I fully engage in a relationship with a God that I do not logically understand?
Because by definition, he is beyond our understanding.

Quote:
Dosn't a belief with logic behind it mean so much more then an empty belief?
No, but propping logic around a belief doesn't suddenly make the whole thing logical. It's still a belief that you hold for reasons of faith, just you have it surrounded by the best reason you can come up with.

Quote:
Obviously belief in a faith can not come purely from logic, but in no way do I believe that true faith should be illogical.
If a person believed something which was WHOLLY illogical, I'll admit that that would be a problem, but sadly, from where I'm sitting, many beliefs held by many religious fools ARE wholly illogical. Not lumping you in there by any means, I'm really thinking of the sort of people who refuse science in favor of **** that makes no sense. The sort of person who considers creationism as legitimate science.

Quote:
My original topic of discussion was the idea that we are created with the ability to comprehend logic for a reason. I wanted to hear what you guys think of that notion. I am curious if you see the ability to discern logic as just evolutionary.
Logic is just an abstract ability our brains "accidentally" developed. The smarter of our species kept multiplying while the stupider died. In time, that led to increased intelligence and the abstract understanding that came with that led on to become the entire nature of humanity. Language, mathematics, recorded history, and logic. Really just accidents, sort of. Natural selection made us smarter and we used that smartness to create something external.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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The problem is you can show almost nothing in the bible to be empirically true. The original Hebrew texts have been translated and re-translated numerous times, so to begin with it's hard to even identify what pieces of scripture could be considered the word of God and which are man made manipulations. Not all of the original Hebrew is understood to begin with.
Cool, I get where you are coming from for sure. You have to admit though the difference between materialism and an idea that there is potentially so much more then that does make the ideals of Christianity so much more obtainable. (Which im sure you do).

As for the old testament original texts I know not all that much. The new testament though is incredibly hard to refute from an authenticity of sources point of view and is incredibly easy to understand.

Quote:
Also, there is no way to differentiate between which parts of the bible are allegorical and which parts are literal. The only way you'd be able to demonstrate anything would be to take a literal interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but obviously you can't do that because you can empirically demonstrate numerous claims in the bible to be false, so if it were true it can't be literal.
There are proper ways to read the bible. Most importantly to look at the context and intent of the author. If some sections of the bible are harder to interpret in a black and white fashion then I hardly see how that will matter in the scheme of what you should already believe from the black and white bits.

The only real problem I can see is where the Bible claims an empirically measurable fact as a belief and is wrong. I mean the bible describes the Earth as flat, but it in no way was claiming to be correct about it, it is just a consequence of it being written in a certain context.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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Because by definition, he is beyond our understanding.
A higher being can meet a lower being where they are. Im talking about a lower being having the capacity to have far better relationship with logic then without.

Quote:
No, but propping logic around a belief doesn't suddenly make the whole thing logical. It's still a belief that you hold for reasons of faith, just you have it surrounded by the best reason you can come up with.
Logic is logic though? If logic propped up around a belief is illogical then you can attack the logic and the person is left with an illogical belief. If the person has a logical belief that holds up to the rigor of logic then surely that belief is logical?




Quote:
Logic is just an abstract ability our brains "accidentally" developed. The smarter of our species kept multiplying while the stupider died. In time, that led to increased intelligence and the abstract understanding that came with that led on to become the entire nature of humanity. Language, mathematics, recorded history, and logic. Really just accidents, sort of. Natural selection made us smarter and we used that smartness to create something external.
How does the ability to comprehend the beauty of art honestly help natural selection?

Also if our logic is accidental how can we believe what we obtain from the logic to be true? Therefore a belief in accidental logic is illogical.
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Old 07-6-2009, 01:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

"Why do we as humans find such a joy and beauty in logic? Can we really ride it off as purely evolutionary? As purely survivalist?
I obviously believe that this side of our being is a gift from God, I believe that we are given an ability to understand so that we can appreciate and take awe in the awesomeness in our creator. How can one with out the ability to think enjoy? How can one with out the ability to think praise and love?"

Sure, I can ride it off as evolutionary, why not? I like logic because it's another form of problemsolving, to me, that aims to unveil truth and understanding about various things in our world. You need to be careful though when it comes to proofs, since it's easy to fall into the trap of using assumptions we don't necessarily know to be valid/true/sound/whatever.

I'll just add though that just because we are able to think/appreciate/understand/enjoy things, it does not mean it had a purpose or that it was with the intention of "seeing the awesomeness of our creator." I can just as easily argue that they're all the results of physical/evolutionary processes and necessary conditions, and with plenty of evidence.

Be waaaryyyy of the loooggggiiiccc
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

Rubix, I put the question out there and a potential answer. I never said I was right. Im wanting to see your "arguments that they're all the results of physical/evolutionary processes and necessary conditions, and with plenty of evidence."

It honestly dosn't strike anyone that as far as we empirically know we are the only ones in the universe who have a sense of beuaty? We are the only ones who find delight in pondering about how our universe works? Where we came from and why? Making fun of Creationists....errr, opps.

Does anyone want to show me how pretty paintings have helped our survival?
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

@OP: Because being logical is better than being illogical. There's really no critical thinking involved here...
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

You're looking too much into end-case specifics and disregarding them as purely survival and therefore unreasonable. Anything can be argued or broken down into evolutionary subcomponents from what I can tell. There can still be advantageous OR adverse side functions to a given evolutionary trait, and as long as they don't have any direct impact on the evolutionary process itself, there's no reason for them to change. In this case, an appreciation for art.

For example, why do humans sense beauty in the first place? What things tend to be beautiful, and what things tend to make us turn away? I would argue that it could be entirely linked to evolution. We tend to see beauty in vitality, in good health, happiness, etc. We can look at a lush forest and see "beauty" because we know that such forests are full of life and good health. Good for survival? Of course.

We see "beauty" in certain humans when they appear to be "prettier," where "pretty" tends to be a combination of things that indicate the presence of genetically-favorable, healthier traits. Survival trait? Sure.

We see "beauty" in problem-solving when we gain understanding of things around us, which can be a function of evolution, as intelligent beings are better equipped to survive than non-intelligent beings given a certain environment (as is the case in all evolution). Survival trait? Yes.

So we can derive this notion of "beauty" from many evolutionary factors, since we tend to find favorable notions beautiful and unfavorable notions not as beautiful or even ugly by comparison. So, we have these preferences/affinities/inclinations for various things, and art can be seen as an "outlet." It's not strictly the notion that "we evolved to like pretty paintings which helped us survive," but rather that the paintings are pretty because we've evolved to find certain attributes beautiful, and a painting is a good way for us to relay that beauty.
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

Blah I want to edit that post to improve the eloquence but I tend to get lazy and type things very stream-of-consciousness style without really caring about how I've structured it. I hope you understand what points I'm trying to relay, here.
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:43 PM   #33
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

Yeap, I can completely agree with that. While it dosn't disprove a higher cause for beauty it certain weakens its argument for it.

Damn it, im trying to find some form of a counter example where a sense of beuaty dosn't help survival. Perhaps the beauty of contemplating the vastness of the universe isn't really survivalist. I guess even inner beauty can be seen as a genetically favorable.

I might sleep on this one and see if I can help myself out here. The best argument I can see here is that if beauty is a form of survival then it will point back to the one who created survival. It feels like a pretty secondary argument though.

Edit: haha, MUSIC! what is survivalist about music? Does music really lead itself to the wanting of desirable evolutionary traits?
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

"God" is something we can't disprove, especially when most people use "God" as something to explain what we don't know. Unless we somehow knew everything there is to know about our universe/origin/etc, there will always be this notion of a "God" that could "potentially be behind everything." But, like Reach said, what exactly, then, are you calling "God," and why even call it that?
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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The only real problem I can see is where the Bible claims an empirically measurable fact as a belief and is wrong. I mean the bible describes the Earth as flat, but it in no way was claiming to be correct about it, it is just a consequence of it being written in a certain context.
Herein lies again one of the points I am making. Indeed, I won't disagree with you, but what this does lead us to is a theological model which cannot be verified and also cannot be falsified. It's also a great example of hindsight bias.

For example, there is no 'a priori' way of knowing if the bible was being literal about the Earth being flat. The only way to see whether or not this is true is to...well, figure out if the Earth is flat or not. Of course it isn't, so then it becomes IN HINDSIGHT glaringly obvious that it was written in the bible as a reflection of the times, in context etc. However, prior to this knowledge you have no sound way of demonstrating which parts can be taken seriously and which ones cannot.


You can say what you want about the intent of the author, and this is true to some extent, but it doesn't change what I just said on a more general level. There is still no way to demonstrate anything faith based in this context.


Also, since you bring up the New Testament and describe it as easily understood (Which is, I suppose true compared to the OT), I present to you these passages:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Matthew 4:4 Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And again in the OT: Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


So, how do you deal with passages like these? It's quite clear they lead to numerous contradictions, which bring us back to exactly the points I was trying to make - Religion is a system that is set up such that you cannot demonstrate it is true nor falsify it.


Quote:
Does anyone want to show me how pretty paintings have helped our survival?
I won't get into this in too much detail, since it could entail an entire thread of its own, but I will comment.

You're taking something very complex and offering, what appears to be a simplistic explanation for it that you do understand because you personally cannot find any other explanations as to why this could be.

If you study evolutionary psychology you will find numerous examples of things that are byproducts or consequences of other developments, and thus they help our survival in an indirect way. This would be one of them, stemming primarily from cultural development.

I could write an entire essay on this, but I won't. I suggest you research it on your own. However, appreciation of beauty and the appearance of beauty stems from both our genes and cultural development, and their intricate interactions from the time we are born. Our genes prime us to find certain things attractive, and our cultures shape and transform this into its ultimate form.

If you want to know where these innate predispositions come from and the development of our culture, you'll want to look towards evolutionary psychology.


Quote:
haha, MUSIC! what is survivalist about music? Does music really lead itself to the wanting of desirable evolutionary traits?
There is a great deal of evidence to suggest it is a byproduct of language, which should obviously present to you numerous survivalist traits. Again, this is an example of something with many utilities that branch out from one another.
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Old 07-6-2009, 02:55 PM   #36
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

Reach how do those scriptures contradict? Call me slow but I have read them before and I feel as if I understand there meanings fairly well but I hardly see the contradiction...

As for the evolutionary psychology I defiantly can see how that would work. Rubix sort of touched on it but I can see there is even more to it.

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Religion is a system that is set up such that you cannot demonstrate it is true nor falsify it.
If you can go through and show the illogically of what the religion preaches, the fruit of the religion then I don't see how it is too hard to discern either way. Judge things by their fruits. Judge the validity of what the religion says.

I can see what you are saying. [Generic statement without a given basis] But logically looking through some of the evidence for and against the major religions of the world and Christianity certainly stands up to the test. [/] But religion will never be agreed on by logic alone.
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Old 07-6-2009, 03:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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Ok this post will be part personal story, part Discussion.

Personal side:
I have grown up in Christian house hold and have always held beliefs based on my up bringing. On some level, they always felt right and for the most part have been sure of them.

Over the last few years I have matured a little and my thought process, while never dependant, has become far more independent (in part thanks to posts made on this board etc...).

Anyway lately I went to a Christian book store and picked up a book I have been meaning to grab for a while. "Christian Apologetics". What I found it to contain were a series of logical proofs for many of my beliefs that I have held so dear.

Something that I have come out of it with is a new found appreciation of the incredible beauty of logic. It is so moving and powerful. There is something so exciting about gaining understanding, appreciating things that were once abstract.

The Critical Thinking Side:
Why do we as humans find such a joy and beauty in logic? Can we really ride it off as purely evolutionary? As purely survivalist?
I obviously believe that this side of our being is a gift from God, I believe that we are given an ability to understand so that we can appreciate and take awe in the awesomeness in our creator. How can one with out the ability to think enjoy? How can one with out the ability to think praise and love?

Clarification: I do not want this thread to turn into a religious thread or a creation versus evolution.


I just want a discussion on the joy and beauty in logic. Where it possibly could have came from and why?
Yes we will all come into this with our biases but that what makes this a (rational, calm, respectful…) discussion.
To discuss the joy and beauty in logic, I believe it is beautiful and joyous. I believe it came from generation upon generation of human existence, and why I believe so is hopefully somewhat interesting.
At one point, human's discovered ways to communicate with each other. At the time, language probably helped with creating strategies for hunting and whatnot. As time goes by, Ben Franklin discovers electricity and through the "magic" of language, he informs us what, why, and how to use this awesome discovery. Nowadays, every time a human discovers something, it is immediately sent through the earth's proverbial circulatory system of human brains, and through the many discoveries and inventions of man, we have evolved into a species where as long as one human learns something, all humans learn it. When a baby is born in the year 2010, he will be born into a world that contains all the knowledge that has ever been developed by any person that was born before him.

I'll try to be the only one to use this thread the way you wanted it to be used, rather than go off on how illogical many of your beliefs are, even though that is what I believe.

I will say this one thing though: how is it logical to understand that "God always was" and not think beyond that? It's logical to say the Big Bang couldn't have happened on its own, because there is always a catalyst for everything; however you read that God has always existed, therefore he's an exception... I need a little help with that one.
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Old 07-6-2009, 03:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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I will say this one thing though: how is it logical to understand that "God always was" and not think beyond that? It's logical to say the Big Bang couldn't have happened on its own, because there is always a catalyst for everything; however you read that God has always existed, therefore he's an exception... I need a little help with that one.
If God made time then he is outside of time. This leads us to him being outside of time (making him not fully comprehensible to us) but we know that him being out of time and the universe means he just is. If he is not in time then he has no beginning and therefore can't be made.

Edit: 3am and sleepy time. Thanks for the discussion all, I will look forward to picking it up tomorrow.
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Old 07-6-2009, 03:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

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Reach how do those scriptures contradict? Call me slow but I have read them before and I feel as if I understand there meanings fairly well but I hardly see the contradiction...

As for the evolutionary psychology I defiantly can see how that would work. Rubix sort of touched on it but I can see there is even more to it.
These passages do not contradict *each other*, obviously not, since they're all the same thing.

The contradiction ties into what I was saying earlier. All of these passages are claiming that, aside from the bible being the word of God, it is his literal word from which all must be followed (with nothing added or subtracted from it, from Deuteronomy).

If these passages are not true then they are direct contradictions (since they claim everything in the bible is the true word of God which must be followed). So, are these passages true?

How could they possibly be literally true after what I just discussed? How could these passages possibly be true if there are things in the bible that are demonstratively false? Further, how can these passages be true if we cannot properly discern PRIOR TO having more knowledge on the matter which passages are literal and which passages are allegory?

Thus they become direct contradictions, and the problem of internal consistency arises. My point comes up again - where is the consistency and continuity between allegory and literal meaning within the bible? There is no empirical way to find it, and thus no empirical way to ever 'prove' Christianity as objectively the moral foundation of our universe.


I don't want to continue to get into this, since it falls into the category of religion, which as you stated, wasn't the initial intent of the thread.

I suggest you continue your search for the answers to the biggest questions the universe posses to us...why are we here, how did it all originate, etc. However, you might want to leave Christianity as your rubric aside for the moment, unless you want to get lost in the logical tangle forever.
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Old 07-6-2009, 04:08 PM   #40
Flaming_Dingleberry
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Default Re: My latest infatuation with logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp View Post
If God made time then he is outside of time. This leads us to him being outside of time (making him not fully comprehensible to us) but we know that him being out of time and the universe means he just is. If he is not in time then he has no beginning and therefore can't be made.

Edit: 3am and sleepy time. Thanks for the discussion all, I will look forward to picking it up tomorrow.
There is no proof that he made time, where did the logic come from right there?

Indeed those statements would have some sort of logic,

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp View Post
If God made time
but that is

Quote:
If
and only

Quote:
If
keyword: If

Last edited by Flaming_Dingleberry; 07-6-2009 at 04:10 PM..
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