FFR poker league -dead-

[TC_Halogen]

I love your mathematical synopses of everything, Reach. Makes me think a little bit more about different situational perspectives.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I love your mathematical synopses of everything, Reach. Makes me think a little bit more about different situational perspectives.

I played like a donk for quite awhile and usually just made bets based on intuition or stuff I had seen other players do without necessarily thinking of precisely why I'm making a bet.

The major change in my game that got me away from being a losing/break-even player at the lower stakes was to always think about precisely why I'm making a particular bet in any situation, and whether or not the bet is for value or the bet is a bluff.

From there, if I choose the value route, I always think about what hands my opponent could have that I have value against on a particular board, and what hands they think I have based on what line I choose to take.

If I'm bluffing, then I think about what hands they have and the fold equity I have against them given the particular line I take.


A HUD helps too (in particular in tough situations like with KK on a 4A8 board, it's a lot easier to reliably be able to call or fold if you have HUD data on a player).

[awein999]

Originally Posted by Reach

I played like a donk for quite awhile and usually just made bets based on intuition or stuff I had seen other players do without necessarily thinking of precisely why I'm making a bet.

The major change in my game that got me away from being a losing/break-even player at the lower stakes was to always think about precisely why I'm making a particular bet in any situation, and whether or not the bet is for value or the bet is a bluff.

From there, if I choose the value route, I always think about what hands my opponent could have that I have value against on a particular board, and what hands they think I have based on what line I choose to take.

If I'm bluffing, then I think about what hands they have and the fold equity I have against them given the particular line I take.

A HUD helps too (in particular in tough situations like with KK on a 4A8 board, it's a lot easier to reliably be able to call or fold if you have HUD data on a player).

First statement here was soooo me until ap played with me heads up a bit

[ddrmaniacaaa]

Originally Posted by Reach

You can check down when someone else is all in you know. It's pretty standard, actually. Why are you so concerned about blowing me out of the pot with an 8 on a flop of 4A8? You have to create a separate pot in order to do so. You also don't even know an 8 is good against gazeebo if I fold.


It was a huge mistake. You should re-read what I said. It's fine to do something like that with play money, but as you've been talking about transitioning to cash, it's massively -EV to do that and you need to understand why in order to be successful.


The DL: By betting your 8, you are *never* betting for value. This bet is always a bluff, and this isn't the board texture or the situation to be bluffing in because there's not much in the pot between us and I serve to have a huge hand here.The bet is simply devoid of any value in that situation and you don't have much fold equity. Hence, it's -EV.


When someone makes a big preflop raise, you call it and someone makes a reraise on top of your call, they have a big hand. Remember, because gazeebo is all in, I have no fold equity against him. Therefore, this raise is *always* for value against both of you. What hands do I raise here for value? It's 3 handed, but that doesn't matter much. I'm only raising hands I know have gazeebo and you beat, so AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ.

I'm oop, so I check that flop every time. Given there's an A on it, I hit it almost all of the time, and if I have any knowledge of how laggy you are, I'm going to call you with KK too.



Anyway, I laid down KK. Fairly standard without any information on a player, esp. given you shouldn't be betting that flop without a big A or 2 pair. Actually, I would say the only hand you want to bet there with is A8 or A4, or sets ofc, because it stands to have pretty high value against my range, in particular because I'm getting it all in with stuff like AK and AQ.

However, I wouldn't ever recommend making that call with hands that weak. Fold to re-raises like that unless you have a lot of information on a player, or you're holding something like TT+ or AJ+ (in which case you should probably shove, not call, unless you have the bullets and want to trap or something).

There are a few other issues; if the flop came 4K8 or 4Q8 or 4J8 etc this further goes to show why you wouldn't want to bet here (you managed to get one of the only flop textures where anyone would lay down their hand).

okok i understand where your comming from thanks for the clarification. I did have information that Gazeebo had called every hand for about a half hour and I wasnt worried about his shove. I understand that 99 times out of a hundered I would be losing money against you but feel this is a perfect price to pay when i had absolutely no information about your playstyle or aggression level (hell, I didnt even know you were you). Thank you for telling me how i should be playing, cause were all still learning. I understand my play was donk but I would neverever do that with real money.

Btw, I won a ticket to a $500 prize pool and everyone was playing the exact same style. It was NLHE, but everyone was raising the minimum, which was rediculous considering the starting stacks. I was steaming and didnt know how to play. I tried to play like a normal person and raise 2.5-3x BB when I had a raising hand, but would get called in 5 or 6 spots. I then played passive and folded almost every hand until I was getting hands to shove (because at this point I was about 2 double ups below the chip average) and I floped top pair top kicker while a guy hit botom two rags and stacked me. How do I play against these styles?

[awein999]

Edit: ddrman: if people min raise all the time in a deep stacked format you are free to call more often and see more flops. It leaves you very open if you have a lot of big blinds and people are min raising preflop. If everyone is minraising all the time, the act of minraising is less powerful especially in a deep stack, therefore you should adjust your play to playing against the minraise more often. If you are the first raiser preflop I suggest doing a 4-5X raise at the beginning of the tourney if EVERYONE is min raising and used to calling the minraiser if you are only raising with premium hands. The problem with this though is that you become predictable and in a deep stack there is simply so many more chips to put in that you are going to get a lot of callers that can limit your range so that it becomes advantageous for them to actually call you with worse starting hands. You can broaden your raising range and play their game.

But I wasn't there and didn't see everything that happened so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Edit2: New entertaining sick ass super cooler hand, and very strangely played to boot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnjcZ...&feature=feedf


Yay. Now I can move up to the 4.40 180 person. And deep stack is definitely on for Saturday

PokerStars Tournament #367464777, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20 USD
90 players
Total Prize Pool: $180.00 USD
Tournament started 2011/02/21 22:56:13 ET
Tournament finished 2011/02/22 3:10:42 ET
1: awein999 (United States), $49.59 (27.55%)
2: alvarez3607 (United States), $33.30 (18.5%)
3: Morpheus310 (Canada), $25.20 (14%)
4: Hobbsstar (Canada), $17.10 (9.5%)
5: tran21 (Canada), $12.60 (7%)
6: Poroota (Argentina), $9.45 (5.25%)
7: Chell_777 (Belarus), $7.65 (4.25%)
8: vectrapoker (Uruguay), $6.48 (3.6%)
9: Cloclo10 (Canada), $5.40 (3%)
10: vinceee (United States), $4.41 (2.45%)
11: Sam007re (United States), $4.41 (2.45%)
12: willie8999 (Canada), $4.41 (2.45%)
13: sonar stud (United States),
14: jacklinw (Canada),
15: xxAZDANxx (United States),
16: Gertie34 (United States),
17: HMoro113 (Brazil),
18: snufbug (United States),
19: twopots (United States),
20: FBM_Braga (Brazil),
21: shanelive13 (United States),
22: seudonimo797 (Mexico),
23: holland140h (United States),
24: camilo234 (Colombia),
25: maldolito (Argentina),
26: spidey_6n4 (Australia),
27: kennyarnold (United States),
28: chekfld (Canada),
29: richie8east (New Zealand),
30: monkster420 (Mexico),
31: jsus45 (Argentina),
32: kerr_punk (Australia),
33: HlwdJoe (United States),
34: cquebe2 (United States),
35: Terrorsnake (Romania),
36: jimmybear200 (United States),
37: don zaky (Slovenia),
38: AlekseiJ (Estonia),
39: predacious_1 (United States),
40: Jnasty_90 (United States),
41: JU5T1N 33 (United States),
42: chris44444 (United Kingdom),
43: Danny Casas (Spain),
44: boxer777 (United States),
45: Crouweltjuh (Netherlands),
46: shtah (Canada),
47: riwaki (United States),
48: elnegro88arg (Argentina),
49: SkeetyD (Canada),
50: Swuty (United States),
51: masterTE0 (Greece),
52: Scott Burn (United States),
53: A'rijn (Belgium),
54: sqrviel1 (Poland),
55: MRiver-a42 (United States),
56: Dscorpy (Russian Federation),
57: harbringer7 (United States),
58: 1125CR_mike (United States),
59: Vic-AcesMx (Mexico),
60: idunnoimhigh (United States),
61: Digitalpunkd (United States),
62: BuckerT1988 (United Kingdom),
63: MizCraknStax (United States),
64: dirdybiz (United States),
65: javivi903 (Spain),
66: Haras1216 (United States),
67: ConnellyJ420 (United States),
68: barbieville (Canada),
69: saldablaster (United States),
70: ButcherToo (Canada),
71: Lightnern (Canada),
72: Filestorm (Germany),
73: ireland441 (Canada),
74: sexy3131 (United Kingdom),
75: WhyUpucker! (United States),
76: Jay-Z 716 (United States),
77: MN Aaron (United States),
78: Laurie Lox (United States),
79: shdymilkman2 (United States),
80: hus3670 (Belgium),
81: xx Big10 xx (Canada),
82: Jaiperdo92 (Spain),
83: KOCKAPOKER (Hungary),
84: Mcpchk (Russian Federation),
85: KingofQuadz3 (United States),
86: THEGUU (United States),
87: novomix (Russian Federation),
88: OBOLLLEBACK (Russian Federation),
89: aceplace22 (United States),
90: Dene-tzazy (Canada),

You finished in 1st place.

[lumphoboextreme]

oh it was really soft... lol i barely went up though ran ****ing awful. lost a preflop allin with QQ against 7's after setting up on the flop. LOL. then someone who had no idea what they were doing accidently slowrolled me with Q9 off. board QJ3,Q,9. I had K,10 and fired every step of the way he smooth called me till the river, took about a minute and a half, and shoved... this kid has proven himself over the course of the night to not know what he's doing. called down with bad pairs and shit consistently. pushed in with less than top pair, just stupid shit. so my K,10 looks great on this board. put him on Q10 at best and call then he flips over the boat for 600$. LULZ. so i barely went up any after doubling him up.

[ddrmaniacaaa]

Originally Posted by awein999

Edit: ddrman: if people min raise all the time in a deep stacked format you are free to call more often and see more flops. It leaves you very open if you have a lot of big blinds and people are min raising preflop. If everyone is minraising all the time, the act of minraising is less powerful especially in a deep stack, therefore you should adjust your play to playing against the minraise more often. If you are the first raiser preflop I suggest doing a 4-5X raise at the beginning of the tourney if EVERYONE is min raising and used to calling the minraiser if you are only raising with premium hands. The problem with this though is that you become predictable and in a deep stack there is simply so many more chips to put in that you are going to get a lot of callers that can limit your range so that it becomes advantageous for them to actually call you with worse starting hands. You can broaden your raising range and play their game.

But I wasn't there and didn't see everything that happened so take what I say with a grain of salt.

No, I think your spot on here. I was getting predictable because I was not getting enough callers when I wanted action and I was playing less than calling hands once i started to loosen up. The problem was by the time I did loosen up the blinds were big enough to lose it all by the river for me. Starting stacks were 2,000 with 10/20 blinds (and the first couple levels it did not get to more than 100 before the flop. (well, I guess i could only see about 20-30 hands this way).

Nice win btw, thats gotta feel good.


And Reach, I forgot to tell you, I have been unemployed for the past year and still live with my parents. My bankroll would consist entirely of my dad's money which he wont allow. Also, Im not sure about the legality issues, but you have to be 21 to gamble where I live, which I am not yet. Figure I might enter a few freerolls while I have nothing to do and eventually I will place, allowing me to SLOWLY move up the stakes.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by ddrmaniacaaa

okok i understand where your comming from thanks for the clarification. I did have information that Gazeebo had called every hand for about a half hour and I wasnt worried about his shove. I understand that 99 times out of a hundered I would be losing money against you but feel this is a perfect price to pay when i had absolutely no information about your playstyle or aggression level (hell, I didnt even know you were you). Thank you for telling me how i should be playing, cause were all still learning. I understand my play was donk but I would neverever do that with real money.

Btw, I won a ticket to a $500 prize pool and everyone was playing the exact same style. It was NLHE, but everyone was raising the minimum, which was rediculous considering the starting stacks. I was steaming and didnt know how to play. I tried to play like a normal person and raise 2.5-3x BB when I had a raising hand, but would get called in 5 or 6 spots. I then played passive and folded almost every hand until I was getting hands to shove (because at this point I was about 2 double ups below the chip average) and I floped top pair top kicker while a guy hit botom two rags and stacked me. How do I play against these styles?

It's all good man. You're just learning. I too still make blunders pretty frequently (Heads up at least, 9 man ring is not too hard to play semi-optimally); the key is just sitting back and looking at your play objectively to figure out what the hell went wrong so it doesn't happen again. That's pretty much how you get better at poker.


As for the situation you've described; you're describing the very, very typical loose-passive player. Loose passive players make up the bulk of poker players. They're also all losing players (if they play long enough). They litter the low buy in tourneys and the micro stakes. Making money at those levels mostly comes from mastery of extracting money from these people.


There are a couple of ways to play these types of players optimally. Assuming you're deep and the blinds aren't too high, the following rules generally apply:

-Keep your game TAG. Only premium hands out of position. You can loosen up in position. I recommend trying to see a lot of pots in position. Don't be aggressive until you connect with the flop though.
- Keep the pot small pre-flop unless you have an absolute monster. Don't try to out play these people pre-flop, since they don't fold much. Rather, get involved in more pots. Wait to connect on flops and then outplay them.
-When you have absolute monsters, make abnormally large raises. Often they'll call anyway, but this is a good thing, since you're giving them a horrible price. This especially so if you've got callers in front of you.
-When you flop something good, play it very aggressively. Make big bets, and get your money in fast.
-However, be wary of raises after you make an aggressive bet. These people are very passive, remember, so they're calling you with most of their range. If they're raising you they've got heat. Re-evaluate your hand strength before getting it all in.

Loose passive players are even more revealing about their hands based on their bet patterns...

-When they bet, they have a hand. At least, they have something. It might not be strong, but they've connected in some way when they bet. Don't call them without something you can win with, and never try to bluff them. Even if you think they have a shitty hand or a draw, don't try to blow them off of it with air, because it won't work. Never fire at these people unless you've got the hand.
-When you do have the best hand, and they're calling you down, try to extract huge value. Don't be afraid to bet huge (pot) in many situations. They'll chase whatever they have, and if they had a made hand, they'll probably call pot on the river too, because they don't fold much.



Otherwise, there's not a lot you can do, depending on the structure. Just do your best and hope you catch cards.

There is more you can do in a ring game, thankfully.

oh it was really soft... lol i barely went up though ran ****ing awful. lost a preflop allin with QQ against 7's after setting up on the flop. LOL. then someone who had no idea what they were doing accidently slowrolled me with Q9 off. board QJ3,Q,9. I had K,10 and fired every step of the way he smooth called me till the river, took about a minute and a half, and shoved... this kid has proven himself over the course of the night to not know what he's doing. called down with bad pairs and shit consistently. pushed in with less than top pair, just stupid shit. so my K,10 looks great on this board. put him on Q10 at best and call then he flips over the boat for 600$. LULZ. so i barely went up any after doubling him up.

Man, I feel your pain. I was playing with about 3 idiots and two sharks recently and I had AA, re-raised limpers from the button and all the idiots call. flop comes A68 rainbow I think. Checked around, I bet big, get called by one player. Turn comes a J, I fire again and buddy instantly ships. I snap call and he throws his hand out and says 'straight!', showing T7. I actually stare blankly at the board for a minute completely confused. I thought I misread the board.

Eventually I figure it out and start laughing hysterically, buddy doesn't get it.

River is a 9. Left immediately. In retrospect I should have stayed but whatever.



I've mostly learned to shut my mouth with regards to stupid play and simply recognize it as future profit. A typical retarded suck out deserves a solid 'nicely played. good hand' to keep them around, but I think even the fish realized what just happened here.

[Without A Contraceptive]

ya loose passive players are the Best to have in a game. tag players (me) eat them up over long sessions, it just takes time. people i play with regularly think i play super laggy because i make my presence known when im in a hand.

when playing full handed, i very rarely limp. the only things im limping are suited connectors in position with a few limpers in front of me (even this, im raising ~50% of the time depending on how the nights going), weak aces trying to flop two pairs, and small pairs. playing tag in cash games is really not that difficult. the biggest problems i see with people knew to poker are limping too many hands and folding premium cash game hands.

limping hands like A8o, K9s, etc. 6+ handed is really weak. even if you flop your pair, a lot of the time youre beat. every night i see people limp these, flop top pair and call off their whole stack.

last night this nit (been playing for a few months, mostly cheap tourneys with his friends) woke up with JTs in the sb with the pot raised to $4 total from the button ($1/1 8 handed holdem). he snap folded then moaned about his bad luck when the flop came T82; 2 spades and a spade on the turn. he would have dragged a big pot against two pairs or something. imo this is a snap call for $3 more dollars.

long story short limp my pots then fold when i cbet and call me with top pair when i check raise you 3x the pot on the turn with queens

[Reach]

limping hands like A8o, K9s, etc. 6+ handed is really weak. even if you flop your pair, a lot of the time youre beat. every night i see people limp these, flop top pair and call off their whole stack.

This 1000x. A huge beginner mistake I see all the time, and profit on regularly (its in every poker book anyway, no point in keeping it a secret. Everybody knows. Except the fish ) is leaving weak aces and kings in your range.

In certain spots, these hands can be profitable. But really, I recommend that in most spots you entirely remove these types of hands from your range, especially out of position. Fold them. They're garbage.


They have no value. When you flop top pair, often times you won't get paid off because even to beginners it's obvious what you have. Every other time, you'll end up at the river facing a big raise, make a retarded call and villain will show up with a higher kicker and you get stacked. Story of the amateurs life.


The only time these types of hands become profitable are in position, and especially when you hit two pair. The reason being you can get paid off by top top and the like quite often. Interestingly I see people underplay 2 pair with weak aces and kings all the time and fail to extract the maximum. If you do hit two pair with these types of hands, you have to assume it to be the nuts 99% of the time and get it all in at some point, even facing a strong triple barrel. Otherwise, playing it will never be profitable =/

[lumphoboextreme]

Originally Posted by Reach

This 1000x. A huge beginner mistake I see all the time, and profit on regularly (its in every poker book anyway, no point in keeping it a secret. Everybody knows. Except the fish ) is leaving weak aces and kings in your range.

In certain spots, these hands can be profitable. But really, I recommend that in most spots you entirely remove these types of hands from your range, especially out of position. Fold them. They're garbage.


They have no value. When you flop top pair, often times you won't get paid off because even to beginners it's obvious what you have. Every other time, you'll end up at the river facing a big raise, make a retarded call and villain will show up with a higher kicker and you get stacked. Story of the amateurs life.


The only time these types of hands become profitable are in position, and especially when you hit two pair. The reason being you can get paid off by top top and the like quite often. Interestingly I see people underplay 2 pair with weak aces and kings all the time and fail to extract the maximum. If you do hit two pair with these types of hands, you have to assume it to be the nuts 99% of the time and get it all in at some point, even facing a strong triple barrel. Otherwise, playing it will never be profitable =/

yeah normally i wouldn't even **** around with K,10 off but from the button i raised to 10 and pick up both blinds immediately. when you know for a fact that 6/8 players at the table are god awful and it's just you and one other quality player at the table, i like to open up my hand range a bit against worse players and just outplay them.

[Without A Contraceptive]

king ten is called the cab driver

[Without A Contraceptive]

because if you play hands like that you end up so broke youre driving a ****ing cab

[lumphoboextreme]

lol i love it. K,10 is actually profitable against the people i was playing against. their hand range is literally any 2 cards. the kids i raised with K,10 were taking pots down with 4,7 off so it is profitable against really loose players.

[ddrmaniacaaa]

Thanks guys, you have been helpful. Anyone got strategy on shootouts, where the only way to score a tourney ticket is win 1 6 handed table followed by the 6 handed final table (where all the first round winners go). If i play tight I am usually up against 1 player but have to survive a 6:1 chip defecit or worse. If i play more loose I might have a shot but most players shove with any two. Its not a huge time waster because these things generally only last 20-30 minutes and ive been running 4-6 tables at once.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by lumphoboextreme

lol i love it. K,10 is actually profitable against the people i was playing against. their hand range is literally any 2 cards. the kids i raised with K,10 were taking pots down with 4,7 off so it is profitable against really loose players.

K10 is alright in some spots, especially in position. Especially 6 handed. 9 handed you'll end up driving a cab unless you know the table.

Shit like K6 is crap that falls into the super -EV zone. It baffles me how often I get paid off by people playing these hands, especially from the blinds. Nothing gets me more excited than the idiot reluctantly calling me from the blinds, because a raise on the button must be a steal, check calling/betting into me to the river and giving me his stack holding something like that.

Thanks guys, you have been helpful. Anyone got strategy on shootouts, where the only way to score a tourney ticket is win 1 6 handed table followed by the 6 handed final table (where all the first round winners go). If i play tight I am usually up against 1 player but have to survive a 6:1 chip defecit or worse. If i play more loose I might have a shot but most players shove with any two. Its not a huge time waster because these things generally only last 20-30 minutes and ive been running 4-6 tables at once.

I'm not actually familiar with optimal play in shootouts, but from those free ones that I have won, I mostly play tight until the blinds go up so I'm isolated against only a few players, and then simply exploit their mistakes. I find either the big stack is often spewy and tries too hard to get me out quickly, leading me to quickly double up several times and take the lead and him to start flaming me in the chat, or he gets too tight and I can start stealing a lot of pots.

In the second round things become pretty standard. People seem to do less dumb shit here but will also play tighter when things come down to it, so by playing aggressively you can win a lot of chips.

[lumphoboextreme]

Originally Posted by Reach

K10 is alright in some spots, especially in position. Especially 6 handed. 9 handed you'll end up driving a cab unless you know the table.

Shit like K6 is crap that falls into the super -EV zone. It baffles me how often I get paid off by people playing these hands, especially from the blinds. Nothing gets me more excited than the idiot reluctantly calling me from the blinds, because a raise on the button must be a steal, check calling/betting into me to the river and giving me his stack holding something like that.



I'm not actually familiar with optimal play in shootouts, but from those free ones that I have won, I mostly play tight until the blinds go up so I'm isolated against only a few players, and then simply exploit their mistakes. I find either the big stack is often spewy and tries too hard to get me out quickly, leading me to quickly double up several times and take the lead and him to start flaming me in the chat, or he gets too tight and I can start stealing a lot of pots.

In the second round things become pretty standard. People seem to do less dumb shit here but will also play tighter when things come down to it, so by playing aggressively you can win a lot of chips.

i'll call raises from the blinds with hands like 78 suited and 45 suited stuff like that because it's either hit or miss and only good players can see it coming. those hands are really profitable for me. implied odds are great. hit and win big, miss and fold.

[Reincarnate]

stop fukken spamming my inbox pl0x

[Reincarnate]

seriously stop

[Reach]

Originally Posted by lumphoboextreme

i'll call raises from the blinds with hands like 78 suited and 45 suited stuff like that because it's either hit or miss and only good players can see it coming. those hands are really profitable for me. implied odds are great. hit and win big, miss and fold.

Exactly. Those aren't half bad hands in most situations, especially multiway. Small pairs are great multiway too, even HU against aggro players that you know have strong hands, since they'll stack off to your set if they hit top pair.

It's crap like A5 that will get you in over your head in shit if you hit your A. You already know that, of course, but people still do it anyway.

Playing A5 oop full ring, flop an ace personally you should fold if someone bets, you'll save yourself money lmao (If it gets checked around it's probably worth a bet on the turn and river).