Difficulty Consultant Applications

[psychoangel691]

Hello everyone! As I mentioned on the front page we're looking to add on a couple more difficulty consultants. Ideally, I'd like to find someone who spends a lot of time in the lower/mid-range and maybe another really well-rounded player to join the team and help us sort out these difficulties. If you'd like to apply, fill out the form https://forms.gle/cJQsoyxwNiUpSx2g7 and well be in touch if we think you'll be a good fit

[emulord]

IMO triples are harder than they are currently rated until about FMO.
Easy to drop boos or misses on
For really new players using arrow keys can be unhittable.

I'm going to fill this out when I get home

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by emulord

IMO triples are harder than they are currently rated until about FMO.
Easy to drop boos or misses on
For really new players using arrow keys can be unhittable.

I'm going to fill this out when I get home

All difficulties assume spread play. It's the direction the game took and it's a necessity to stay coherent with that. The only reason index might be considered in difficulty is if a song's hardest section is cheesable by switching to index play (that would mean a fast isolated one-handed trill, which is extremely rare). One could make the argument that files like Disregard on SM got better scores from index (iirc) but really those are negligible.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by emulord

IMO triples are harder than they are currently rated until about FMO.
Easy to drop boos or misses on
For really new players using arrow keys can be unhittable.

I'm going to fill this out when I get home

As someone who used to be in this camp, I want to pass you my two cents.

One they're called hands, and two you can literally teach yourself to drop down an extra finger to hit these. (Think of how you'd play the intro section to Blooddrunk for example.) I would argue say Once Upon A December is a strong file to showcase this as well. They're certainly a learning curve though, but as OP said, the game changed directions a long time ago, and Index is very literally invalid as a play-style in the current game, unless the files are made for it.

Files such as Monstrous Turtles, Strangeprogram, Klung Kung, and Over The Frail Dream (and more to be honest) are files that fit that mold, their patterns are at least in my opinion, not ones that translate well to the main style of play, but it can be done. But on top of that - they're just not the types of files made anymore.

But to really cut this short, a new player these days is going to be someone who comes at a recommendation most of the time, this game is on it's last leg as it is. Hopefully they'll have someone teach them better.

Or there's a more simple solution, and that would be to set the current keybindings for guests to as kl, which would solve a lot of that problem. No one should play Index unless they're playing a file made for it in the current setting. Which is why it shouldn't be a factor in difficulties, you'd literally throw the whole skew off for it.

[PhantomPuppy]

By "mid-range" are we talking about D4-6? or would that imply D1-3?

If D4-6 sign me up, that's my shit :P

[Antori]

the hands struggle is only because of how rare they're implemented in the lower diff files, as someone who went through having handstreams as my second worst skillset to being one of my stronger suits just acouple months ago i only got better on it from training and exposure, nothing is inherently hard about hands

(of course this is assuming the stepartist has some basic understanding of how to chart)

i also wanna point out this even if it's obvious, saying nothing is inherently hard about hands doesn't imply that hands are as easy to hit as jumps, that's wrong, any pattern implementing hands would be harder than it's jump counterpart but that's of course accounted for in difficulty and with that in mind it still stands that nothing is inherently hard about any pattern(this should be the case since it's a sign of a balanced game)

[psychoangel691]

For the record, hands used to be considered difficult for lower players and were considered in difficulty. Then all of a sudden there became some weird shift in things.

The plan is to fix things to be more linear as much as possible. Obviously, this can't be perfect however, I think we can do much better than we have been.

So if you're applying for this, please be prepared for a fair bit of work.

[rushyrulz]

hands used to be a big deal back when they weren't fucking everywhere. But now they're fucking everywhere and not such a big deal anymore.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

hands used to be a big deal back when they weren't fucking everywhere. But now they're fucking everywhere and not such a big deal anymore.

That doesn't change it for new players coming into the game (not talking about other 4k players.)

[Precarious]

I'm considering this. High end difficulty seems to get reevaluated all the time, but there's an enormous amount of inaccuracy elsewhere as well. Truthfully, the players best suited to evaluate any given range are those in that particular range. What's become the meta at higher difficulties is irrelevant to lower ones, but ultimately any file needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by Precarious

I'm considering this. High end difficulty seems to get reevaluated all the time, but there's an enormous amount of inaccuracy elsewhere as well. (1) Truthfully, the players best suited to evaluate any given range are those in that particular range. (2) What's become the meta at higher difficulties is irrelevant to lower ones, but ultimately any file needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Can you provide arguments to explain your claims ? It's not obvious to me that this is true or not.

I tend to think the opposite: high level players (with a decent amount of experience, and having played most songs or at least a wide variety of files) usually have a better understanding of what constitutes the partly subjective difficulty metric we use, like bpms, patterns, transitions, stamina, spikes, etc.

You have to remember that players with a level higher than a file's difficulty should also agree with the arguments used to pick a certain difficulty number, otherwise it's a bit pointless. That being said, we don't gain much by having a lower level player be a DC, other than they might play the easier files more often, which I think isn't a heavy weight in the balance.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Can you provide arguments to explain your claims ? It's not obvious to me that this is true or not.

I tend to think the opposite: high level players (with a decent amount of experience, and having played most songs or at least a wide variety of files) usually have a better understanding of what constitutes the partly subjective difficulty metric we use, like bpms, patterns, transitions, stamina, spikes, etc.

You have to remember that players with a level higher than a file's difficulty should also agree with the arguments used to pick a certain difficulty number, otherwise it's a bit pointless. That being said, we don't gain much by having a lower level player be a DC, other than they might play the easier files more often, which I think isn't a heavyweight in the balance.

High-level players tend to be too elitist and don't even bother to think about the little guy. Sorry but it's true.

[Precarious]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Can you provide arguments to explain your claims ? It's not obvious to me that this is true or not.

I tend to think the opposite: high level players (with a decent amount of experience, and having played most songs or at least a wide variety of files) usually have a better understanding of what constitutes the partly subjective difficulty metric we use, like bpms, patterns, transitions, stamina, spikes, etc.

You have to remember that players with a level higher than a file's difficulty should also agree with the arguments used to pick a certain difficulty number, otherwise it's a bit pointless. That being said, we don't gain much by having a lower level player be a DC, other than they might play the easier files more often, which I think isn't a heavy weight in the balance.

This is exactly the problem I sort of hinted at in my application. In no way am I as fluent in the jargon of FFR as you are--and I mean that both in terms of the actual vocabulary, and in reading and interpreting a given pattern or set of patterns in a file. But that's precisely the problem with the current system. Difficulty is subjective, not objective. You literally have the current number 1 average rank on the site. You were a snipe away from winning D7. There are files you can AAA effortlessly that I can't even play--so of course you'd be infinitely better suited to judging such material than myself.

But by the same token, at some point you lose your ability to determine why something is hard when it no longer is hard. You can have two files that are superficially similar--comparable bpms, types of patterns, stamina requirements, and so on--yet feel completely different to a player at that level. If everything is easy for you, then how can you meaningfully distinguish between these files? You can't--other than to refer to those preexisting criteria. But nothing occurs in a vacuum, and incidentals that can't be so easily quantified exist. Evaluating difficulty is an art, not a science--otherwise we could just user an auto-rating system a la Etterna.

What you're suggesting is only true if you honestly believe that difficulty is completely, statistically quantifiable. And yet that clashes with our existing statistics--and mars the player experience anyway. Yes, it's obviously true that lower players will see greater variation, as they will invariably have holes in their skillset that lead otherwise comparable files to move apart. But I'll take that over dispassionately calculating from a spreadsheet. To argue otherwise is to suggest you're engaging with lower difficulty files in the same way as someone fighting against them, and that's simply not true.

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

High-level players tend to be too elitist and don't even bother to think about the little guy. Sorry but it's true.

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

This isn't a fair assessment at all considering how the difficulty shifts transpired.

It's completely true--and has nothing to do with difficulty shifts. Look at Opkiller's response; it considers the DLow-Mid experience only from that of DHigh. This attitude, consciously or unconsciously, permeates the site, and I feel it's a problem both for player attraction and retention.

But that's not really what this topic is about. You've done more than anyone to make ratings here accurate (and I thank you for that), but even so your response is bound up in the assumptions born of your own considerable abilities.

So consider the following scenario. A new file is released, and ten D6/7/8 players all rate it a 52. Ten D2/3/4 players rate it 51, 54, 56, 58, 54, 60, 50, 61, 57, and 57. One might surmise that by quantifiable standards, it must be a 52. All of the more skilled/experienced players determined it to be such, likely by calculating backward from bpm and patterns, and comparing it against their own expectations for such a file. The lower division estimates were all over the place, but averaged to 55.8. I'd argue that assessment is closer, because the file is meant to be representative and demonstrative of their skillsets. Yes, the lower you go, the more gaps there will be in skillsets, and thus the larger the potential for variation and outliers. But difficulty itself is, by everyone's contention, subjective, and thus matters most of all by comparison to other files. Not just in terms of speed and length and stamina, but in how comfortable and playable it is for the player it challenges. At some point, playability needs to become the key concern--and that's something lost as one gets further from a given file presenting any sort of challenge.

I did read your reply, and I do think it's valid. Certainly, there's going to be a certain amount of give unless we revamp lower difficulty entirely. But that's the thing. We should do that. If your proposal for higher level difficulty/AAA equivalency revamp goes through (and I like your discussion, and I think it should, whatever form that takes), that seems to me a good excuse to revisit everything.

[rayword45]

People used to think OMGWTFT0K3N without the moving receptors was FMO-worthy which is lol-worthy to me. That shit is a VD at best.

[M0nkeyz]

There are some outliers and I want to give an example:

Obscene amounts of steam is a level 77

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...php?level=1622

Flamingo is a level 70

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...php?level=1755

In my opinion Flamingo has more awkward patterns and is quite a bit denser overall. (this used to be worse in the old system where I believe flamingo was a 63 and obscene was a 72)

Overall I think when you move from level to level to AAA every song the difficulty curve is quite linear with a few outliers here and there.

[TheSaxRunner05]

I'll be putting an application in tomorrow on my day off. One thing I do think gets lost a bit when higher level players judge lower level songs is stamina. While some songs like Makiba appear to have it factored into its difficulty, other songs do not. When it comes down to it, I think it comes down to having these discussions, laying the rules for how it should be, and then sticking to them consistently across the range. Overall, there has been a lack of time really examining the difficulty in the lower range and I'd like to help out with that. I think this is a step in the right direction whomever is chosen - it needs time and work put into it.

[PhantomPuppy]

coming from someone that isn't naturally good at rhythm games, i'd say that i agree with the statement that a lot of high level players overlook some of the patterns that would be considered difficult to a D3/4. it took me years to go from barely being able to get under 50g FC on sound of my dream rmx (a 17 on the current scale) to where i am now. and now that i've made it, i can honestly say that D7's tend to rank files through a very biased lens that reflect their own skillsets.

like, i can't AAA for shit. i legit still have an issue trying to consistently AAA some D4 songs because the patterns are pretty wonky, while others files will be ez pz lemon squeezy but ranked higher just cuz they are faster.

now this is just completely my opinion and DOES NOT apply to all D7/8 players, but a lot of us tend to skip over the fact that these weird ass patterns in lower ranked songs took a long time to learn and didn't just come naturally to us either.

edit: i just want to make clear that my statement is not a personal attack on anyone. k thx

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy

coming from someone that isn't naturally good at rhythm games, i'd say that i agree with the statement that a lot of high level players overlook some of the patterns that would be considered difficult to a D3/4. it took me years to go from barely being able to get under 50g FC on sound of my dream rmx (a 17 on the current scale) to where i am now. and now that i've made it, i can honestly say that D7's tend to rank files through a very biased lens that reflect their own skillsets.

like, i can't AAA for shit. i legit still have an issue trying to consistently AAA some D4 songs because the patterns are pretty wonky, while others files will be ez pz lemon squeezy but ranked higher just cuz they are faster.

now this is just completely my opinion and DOES NOT apply to all D7/8 players, but a lot of us tend to skip over the fact that these weird ass patterns in lower ranked songs took a long time to learn and didn't just come naturally to us either.

Do you not consider at all the possibility that you are better at speed stuff than technical ? "Weird ass patterns" is very vague. Also D7 very likely do the opposite of judge diff 50 files based on their skillset, as they excel in everything such a file requires. A level 50 who's good at jacks though might very well judge that same file with a bias towards jacks being easier.

[psychoangel691]

I promise I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just not in the mental state of reading the big posts at the moment but ultimately the fact is the way it's been approached hasn't been working out.

I want a diverse team, I've made this clear and I'm not the only one who thinks it should be so. Yes, they may not know every little detail but that's why us seasoned people are there, to help them learn and understand what they may not while being able to give us insight that we may no longer have being in the upper area.

This site has always had an elitist problem, for many many many years. You can say no it's not true but I see it regularly. It's a shame how some of the upper level people even talk to some of the lower end when they try to bring up some of this stuff.

Anyway, this is going to be a long project and not something that's gonna happen straight away so if for some reason it's not looking like it's working out we'll re-evaluate and go from there.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I promise I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just not in the mental state of reading the big posts at the moment but ultimately the fact is the way it's been approached hasn't been working out.

I want a diverse team, I've made this clear and I'm not the only one who thinks it should be so. Yes, they may not know every little detail but that's why us seasoned people are there, to help them learn and understand what they may not while being able to give us insight that we may no longer have being in the upper area.

This site has always had an elitist problem, for many many many years. You can say no it's not true but I see it regularly. It's a shame how some of the upper level people even talk to some of the lower end when they try to bring up some of this stuff.

Anyway, this is going to be a long project and not something that's gonna happen straight away so if for some reason it's not looking like it's working out we'll re-evaluate and go from there.

I'm debating how difficulty should be assessed. I'm very ok with having a lower lvl player tackling this challenging task; it's not an insult that they may have a tougher time to do it than a more skilled player, it's just how it is. I will argue with any player, D7 or D1, if their explanations are bad. I already do it with Zenith and Haku. My goal isn't to provoke DC's, it's to have coherent difficulties.