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Old 09-24-2018, 01:27 PM   #121
melonpapes
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

sorry bub we are a private grocery store n we do not wanna be caught selling FOOD to a LITERAL FASCIST get out of here go hit the food bank *cuts up your visa*
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:28 PM   #122
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

RACIST idiot FACIST gets OWNED!!
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:36 PM   #123
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

I mean...grocery stores have already had the right to refuse service to anybody for any non-discriminatory reason. They could -already- not sell to somebody whose politics they didn't like. So that slippery slope you're trying to show us has been running perfectly non-slippery for a very long time.

A private company reserves the right to control its private spaces.

He can say anything he wants on any platform that will have him. He is not guaranteed a platform or network beyond those available to all of us through the public arena.

If all he has left is an actual soapbox in a public square to stand on, he's still not been censored and his right to free speech has not been taken away.

I get that the centrist liberal position wants to obsess over "Your beliefs are only strong beliefs if you apply them in the cases where you don't want to" and anybody who cares about freedom of speech is obliged to care about the freedom of speech of everybody, not just people who say things we like. And yes, absolutely. 'Free speech for all' means for all, not just non-assholes. But BOY can you still support his free speech (which has not actually been impeded in any way whatsoever by being removed from any number of private platforms, because that is not how free speech works or has ever worked) without also pushing so hard to want to force people to help support the gross and harmful consequences of his exercise of speech.

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Old 09-24-2018, 03:16 PM   #124
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

This isnít a scam right?!


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Old 09-24-2018, 04:29 PM   #125
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by melonpapes View Post
yeah its only every major electronic/internet payment handler and the credit card companies used to make the majority of these electronic/internet payments but you can still write alex jones a western union money order or stuff a 20$ in an envelope and hope it makes its way to him

you see, taking away the money he uses to run his platform isn't literally sewing his mouth shut (even tho the next step is likely not allowing him to purchase a domain or server to run his site on regardless of who funds it but heyyyyy da frogman is done for guys!)
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I mean the claim that he is being censored or stopped from saying whatever he wants by not being able to get money from people via a private service is absurd.

I don't get any money via paypal at all, and I can say all the same things he does.
Are you guys deliberately ignoring that Alex Jones was deplatformed on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, etc. etc. ??

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
I mean...grocery stores have already had the right to refuse service to anybody for any non-discriminatory reason. They could -already- not sell to somebody whose politics they didn't like. So that slippery slope you're trying to show us has been running perfectly non-slippery for a very long time.
A private company reserves the right to control its private spaces.

He can say anything he wants on any platform that will have him. He is not guaranteed a platform or network beyond those available to all of us through the public arena.
Yeah what the companies have done is totally legal and fine, but it's not good.

Quote:
If all he has left is an actual soapbox in a public square to stand on, he's still not been censored and his right to free speech has not been taken away.
It has become considerably more difficult for him to spread his message. The fact that a few companies have the power to control speech that much is not.. good for free speech.

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I get that the centrist liberal position wants to obsess over "Your beliefs are only strong beliefs if you apply them in the cases where you don't want to" and anybody who cares about freedom of speech is obliged to care about the freedom of speech of everybody, not just people who say things we like. And yes, absolutely. 'Free speech for all' means for all, not just non-assholes.
Yeah

Quote:
But BOY can you still support his free speech (which has not actually been impeded in any way whatsoever by being removed from any number of private platforms, because that is not how free speech works or has ever worked)
I feel like this is ignoring the power of the companies that banned him.

Quote:
without also pushing so hard to want to force people to help support the gross and harmful consequences of his exercise of speech.
I don't understand what this means.
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:40 PM   #126
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

I'm double-posting and idgaf because this is another topic of its own

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arch0wl's just been watching too many right-wing conspiracy theory vids lately
The view that he has isn't just a view that right-wing conspiracy theorists hold. I agree with Arch0wl, and I don't agree with him on many things. I'm quite literally on the other side of the political spectrum than him.

You can hate what people do but still support their right to do it. I'm sure we both think that Alex Jones is an idiot, but that's not the point.

... i'm gonna go i have more to say but hanging out with work friends
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is funny eaman?
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:15 PM   #127
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

Let's be clear here on why Alex Jones was deplatformed: He argued that the Sandy Hook school shooting was faked and that the victims and their families were "crisis actors". He argued that this was part of a deep state conspiracy to take away guns. He helped and continues to help publish details about the families of Sandy Hook school shooting survivors. He has encouraged his listeners to harass them to the point that they have to purchase private security and have hidden grave sites for their dead kids so they don't get harassed when trying to visit them.

Without Alex Jones pushing the Sandy Hook conspiracy, those families of dead kids would not be getting relentlessly harassed.

These are not ideas that grow and die in the "marketplace of ideas." Correct ideas do not prosper over time. Fast ideas that match our existing cognitive biases do. Longer debate does not make the correct idea float to the surface. Louder influence does however propagate ideas and cause listeners to stochastically start acting on those ideas. Maybe if you don't believe me you'll believe a conservative think tank's publication on the new era of propaganda: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

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Interestingly, several of these features [of propaganda] run directly counter to the conventional wisdom on effective influence and communication from government or defense sources, which traditionally emphasize the importance of truth, credibility, and the avoidance of contradiction. Despite ignoring these traditional principles, Russia seems to have enjoyed some success under its contemporary propaganda model, either through more direct persuasion and influence or by engaging in obfuscation, confusion, and the disruption or diminution of truthful reporting and messaging.

...

The experimental psychology literature suggests that, all other things being equal, messages received in greater volume and from more sources will be more persuasive. Quantity does indeed have a quality all its own.

...

Due to their lack of commitment to objective reality (discussed later), Russian propagandists do not need to wait to check facts or verify claims; they just disseminate an interpretation of emergent events that appears to best favor their themes and objectives. This allows them to be remarkably responsive and nimble, often broadcasting the first “news” of events (and, with similar frequency, the first news of nonevents, or things that have not actually happened).
While Alex Jones is not explicitly Russian propaganda, he uses the same tactics and tools. This sort of propaganda is exactly what the "marketplace of ideas" is weak against, and the rand publication link provided above gives an excellent breakdown of why the marketplace of ideas catastrophically fails to deal with his form of propaganda.

What recommendations do we have to counter it? The Rand publication doesn't provide much direct alternatives; it mostly just laments the failure of fact-based counter-reporting:

Quote:
The first step is to recognize that this is a nontrivial challenge. Indeed, the very factors that make the firehose of falsehood effective also make it quite difficult to counter: For example, the high volume and multitude of channels for Russian propaganda offer proportionately limited yield if one channel is taken off the air (or offline) or if a single misleading voice is discredited. The persuasive benefits that Russian propagandists gain from presenting the first version of events (which then must be dislodged by true accounts at much greater effort) could be removed if the true accounts were instead presented first. But while credible and professional journalists are still checking their facts, the Russian firehose of falsehood is already flowing: It takes less time to make up facts than it does to verify them.

We are not optimistic about the effectiveness of traditional counterpropaganda efforts. Certainly, some effort must be made to point out falsehoods and inconsistencies, but the same psychological evidence that shows how falsehood and inconsistency gain traction also tells us that retractions and refutations are seldom effective. Especially after a significant amount of time has passed, people will have trouble recalling which information they have received is the disinformation and which is the truth. Put simply, our first suggestion is don’t expect to counter the firehose of falsehood with the squirt gun of truth.

...

Rather than just trying to counter disinformation with other information, it might be possible to thwart desired effects with other capabilities—or to simply apply information efforts to redirecting behaviors or attitudes without ever directly engaging with the propaganda. That leads to our third suggestion: Don’t direct your flow of information directly back at the firehose of falsehood; instead, point your stream at whatever the firehose is aimed at, and try to push that audience in more productive directions.
Emphasis mine.


In summary, Alex Jones caused families of Sandy Hook kids that were murdered to get relentlessly harassed. Trying to outcompete his narrative in the marketplace of ideas will be completely ineffective and he will still have reach to radicalize people into harassing others as long as he has a platform. To uphold free speech absolution for private corporations, we either have to accept that relentless harassment is a side effect of maintaining private corporate free speech, or we have to find an alternative strategy to inhibit the effects of his speech.

So for anyone who doesn't support private corporations deplatforming Alex Jones, my questions to you are:

1. Do you accept that relentless, arbitrary harassment is a side effect of maintaining free speech in our country? If so, what risks do you think outweigh the costs of this harassment?

2. If you don't think harassment is acceptable but you also don't think that deplatforming is appropriate, what alternatives that may actually work do you suggest? Remember, "marketplace of ideas" isn't an option here.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:28 PM   #128
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

Yes, relentless and arbitrary harassment is a side effect of maintaining free speech
Which is why I am accepting the relentless and arbitrary harassment of Alex Jones in this thread
I don't agree with Alex' harassment, nor do I agree with the harassment against Alex.
But not agreeing doesn't mean I will try to shut you up.
I'm listening to your opinions, I'm giving my own, and will change my stance if convinced.
Right now I am advocating not to perpetuate this cycle of aggression.
I see your intentions are good and all, but you're bullying the bully, and I will not join you in that.

Harassment is acceptable in as much as human nature isn't perfect.
Deplatforming isn't appropriate in as much as I've stated above.
What I suggest?
That we don't interfere.
That we listen to eachother and stay open to suggestions while remaining critical of all sides.
That we don't claim to be an authority on what is right or not right to say.
If people want to fund someone they agree with, who are you to tell them their decision is wrong?
Who are corporations to tell them their decision is wrong?
I suggest that we let people speak what they want, and let nature take its natural course.
Remember, "marketplace of ideas" isn't an option here? I disagree.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:32 PM   #129
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
Are you guys deliberately ignoring that Alex Jones was deplatformed on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, etc. etc. ??

My post is like dripping in sarcasm or whatver u wanna call it. I'm sort of parodying the other side I think. don't quote or argue with me seriously based on that post lol. sry. no i'm not ignoring/forgetting that.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:38 PM   #130
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
I'm double-posting and idgaf because this is another topic of its own



The view that he has isn't just a view that right-wing conspiracy theorists hold. I agree with Arch0wl, and I don't agree with him on many things. I'm quite literally on the other side of the political spectrum than him.

You can hate what people do but still support their right to do it. I'm sure we both think that Alex Jones is an idiot, but that's not the point.

... i'm gonna go i have more to say but hanging out with work friends
I hate alex jones's snake oil commercial bullshit and think thats a big scam but thats obviously not why he was shut down from taking payments/donations/what have you and its an alarming amount of control in regards to a private corporation being able to limit one's ability to dispel information into the public sphere or otherwise scare them into thinking twice before freely sharing their opinions. which of course probably doesn't sound bad to those people who are happy to shut out certain demographics from the discourse, but, yknow, muh scary precedent. ooooo
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:33 PM   #131
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

anybody who mentions the words "marketplace of ideas" has been watching too much Dave Rubin to be fair
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Old 09-25-2018, 08:53 AM   #132
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill View Post
Yes, relentless and arbitrary harassment is a side effect of maintaining free speech
Which is why I am accepting the relentless and arbitrary harassment of Alex Jones in this thread
lmao if u think this no name website constitutes harassment on an even remotely equitable level to the harassment families of school shooting victims have had to endure
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:21 AM   #133
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

no I meant the deplatforming
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Originally Posted by bluguerilla
So Sexy Robotnik (SKG_Scintill) {.0001/10} [--]
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:24 AM   #134
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by melonpapes View Post
My post is like dripping in sarcasm or whatver u wanna call it. I'm sort of parodying the other side I think. don't quote or argue with me seriously based on that post lol. sry. no i'm not ignoring/forgetting that.
Oh, okay. Sorry I didn't notice the sarcasm ><

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Let's be clear here on why Alex Jones was deplatformed: He argued that the Sandy Hook school shooting was faked and that the victims and their families were "crisis actors". He argued that this was part of a deep state conspiracy to take away guns. He helped and continues to help publish details about the families of Sandy Hook school shooting survivors. He has encouraged his listeners to harass them to the point that they have to purchase private security and have hidden grave sites for their dead kids so they don't get harassed when trying to visit them.
That's the one part that I thought shouldn't have happened. I guess I don't know enough about this case. I wasn't finding this type of info on the articles I've read about the case.

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These are not ideas that grow and die in the "marketplace of ideas." Correct ideas do not prosper over time. Fast ideas that match our existing cognitive biases do. Longer debate does not make the correct idea float to the surface. Louder influence does however propagate ideas and cause listeners to stochastically start acting on those ideas. Maybe if you don't believe me you'll believe a conservative think tank's publication on the new era of propaganda: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html
In this case, it's pretty obvious that Alex Jones doesn't have a correct idea (even his defense team doesn't buy his shit), but in other situations, what's right and what's wrong is murkier. We shouldn't silence what we think is wrong. We all hold beliefs that are incorrect.


Quote:
So for anyone who doesn't support private corporations deplatforming Alex Jones, my questions to you are:

1. Do you accept that relentless, arbitrary harassment is a side effect of maintaining free speech in our country? If so, what risks do you think outweigh the costs of this harassment?
It's a side-effect, yes. As I said before, it's the fault of the people who are actually harassing the families, not someone spreading "fake news".

The risk of this is honestly not having free speech and an open place to exchange ideas, that the only acceptable things to say are what the majority deems correct and appropriate. If we're not open to opinions that we think are wrong, then we won't question our own beliefs and be better.

There was a time where we thought slavery was okay. There was a time when we thought racism was okay. There was a time when we thought homophobia was okay. Now we know they're not okay, but would we have come to this conclusion if we kept silencing the people who went against those previously majority-held beliefs?

Quote:
2. If you don't think harassment is acceptable but you also don't think that deplatforming is appropriate, what alternatives that may actually work do you suggest? Remember, "marketplace of ideas" isn't an option here.
Punish the people who make the families feel unsafe, the ones sending death threats.

Edit: Harassment is such a horribly misused term, lol. I read Scintill's thing and while we believe the same thing, I wouldn't call what's happening to Jones harassment. He deserves shit thrown at him. Not this shit though
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is funny eaman?
Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
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Originally Posted by the sun fan View Post
GET DUNKED FUNNY
(eaman is her name irl, friend)


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Old 09-25-2018, 09:37 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
Edit: Harassment is such a horribly misused term, lol. I read Scintill's thing and while we believe the same thing, I wouldn't call what's happening to Jones harassment. He deserves shit thrown at him. Not this shit though
Yes, I'm fine with word shit thrown at him aka freedom of speech
Not deplatforming actions aka not words
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Originally Posted by bluguerilla
So Sexy Robotnik (SKG_Scintill) {.0001/10} [--]
___
. RHYTHMS PR LAYERING
. ZOMG I HAD TO QUIT OUT TERRIBLE
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:48 AM   #136
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Yes, I'm fine with word shit thrown at him aka freedom of speech
Not deplatforming actions aka not words
But you just said "No I meant the deplatforming" in response to my incredulity that you'd compare the "harassment" on this site to that he incited.

What is it you meant I'm confused

Edit: unrelated but I actually do miss archowl posting on this website he was an inadvertently funnigui
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:19 PM   #137
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Edit: unrelated but I actually do miss archowl posting on this website he was an inadvertently funnigui
#freearch0wl
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is funny eaman?
Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
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GET DUNKED FUNNY
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:29 PM   #138
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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#freearch0wl
he was a good boi he dindu nuffin
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:45 PM   #139
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

i would like to say that the last post was just a joke ok
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:42 PM   #140
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

lmao, regardless of what you believe the consequences of free speech are, someone is definitely NOT allowed to say "Hey I don't like this [person, family or group of people]. Here is their address, go bother them if you like me."

That's not a fucking consequence of free speech. Its despicable is what it is.

He's not allowed to say that as "free speech."

Like it or not, corporations are allowed to deny someone service for any reason or no reason at all. Like devonin said, any corporation that denies Alex Jones or any person/group of people service because they don't like his/her/their ideas can currently do so in the United States. That's how it is currently.

They, however, are NOT stripping him of his freedom of speech. Again, like devonin said, no one is saying that Alex Jones cannot and should not be able to say pretty much whatever he wants in America. But a corporation, using the very same right to freedom of speech, is allowed to say that they do not wish to provides services to someone for their opinions. Whether it is broadcasted to millions of people or shouted at people passing through an intersection off a highway exit, he is still allowed to say whatever the hell he wants. He just is being denied service as a result of the decision of corporations.

If you don't like it, do what you've done here. Talk about it. Make these corporations come to regret their decision by talking with your wallets. That's how this nation works, again, like it or not. That will get Visa/whoever else to change their minds, be it about Alex Jones or the Horowitz Center or the estate of Phyllis Schlafly.

But do me and every other reasonable person a favor and don't accept what Alex Jones said as a necessary cost of freedom of speech. Its not ok what he has spaid wrt harassing families of Sandy Hook victims.

No one is saying don't punish the people threatening these families. From what I understand, at least one person has been punished. But you cannot seriously begin to tell me that these families would be harassed without Alex Jones telling them to go harass these families.

If I convince you to steal a car, I am partially responsible for that car being stolen, both ethically and wrt the law. That car would not have been stolen without me convincing you to steal it.

The Rwandan genocide wouldn't have happened (at least, to the extent that lives were lost, I accept and acknowledge that this is complicated and that I am simplifying it down here) without radio stations in Rwanda (and I think also in surrounding countries but I'm not sure and I rarely look things up when making posts because laziness) talking about the "Tutsi cockroaches polluting the nation." Many of the people in charge or running these radio stations, or in charge of broadcasting, were charged with crimes against humanity afterwords, I believe.

Hundreds of thousands of people might be alive if not for those broadcasts.

I understand that the comparison here is a little bit grave. I do not mean to directly compare these two beyond showing how something that someone/a group of people said can lead to horrible tragedy.

What Alex Jones has advocated is, in my opinion, despicable. It is a crime not directly comparable to incitation of genocide, but it is horrible. People are being harassed because some dumbfuck hopelessly delusional people believe that the families of the victims of Sandy Hook are crisis actors. You will never, ever be able to convince me that these people, who have had to move something like over 5 times since 2014 due to harassment in one instance, should suffer just so Alex Jones can continue to advocate that they be harassed because of his... knowingly false accusation that the incident in question did not actually happen. Its not ok. That's not what freedom of speech is about.
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FFR is a pretty good place somehow.
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