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Old 08-15-2021, 05:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Maybe FFR could have multiple FC metrics ?
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Maybe FFR could have multiple FC metrics ?
Care to elaborate ?
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you want is not a FC metric anymore, it's a metric of "somewhat decent scores". You know what that sounds like ? AA in Stepmania/Etterna (93% score, however your % is computed). Although I don't disagree with your statements in that regard, I absolutely do disagree when talking about the FC metric.

What would you think of making the FC bar count the FC*'s, but add a new metric similar to AA which FFR could work on defining. Imo this sounds like a much better alternative than trying to give a funky, non-intuitive re-definition to the FC metric.
No I very much would like a full combo metric, just under the pretense that the full combos involve playing the charts. If the full combo bar can be filled with scores that ultimately look like [12][34] spamming throughout the chart's duration, I fail to see the point of tracking them. I'm saying that some restriction should be set in place given FFR has no judgment that breaks combo other than an outright miss, and I don't think the judgment system is going to change after 19 years. The majority of other rhythm games have some sort of hit judgment that breaks combo, which if one such judgment existed in FFR, I wouldn't be arguing for a restriction if the bar was to stay. Making a single boo break combo is far too punishing, despite how "clean" the solution appears (boos as a whole either breaking or continuing combo). If a player gets 200+ goods but maintains a relatively low boo count, at least they're demonstrating an intention to play the file as it's written, and in that case the full combo should be rightfully rewarded.

And yes I had either a thread or started a discord conversation (or both honestly) regarding the implementation of AA in FFR, which I believe setting at 99% of max raw score would work best. This would likely be the greatest incentivizing metric possible. In the scenario where that's implemented, then yes sure I guess count the FC*'s with no restrictions and players can choose to focus on AAs if they want to actually improve. Though I still think a FC bar that entertains the possibility of mindlessly mashing through every chart is pointless to have, but at least you'll have a cleaner solution and definition for it.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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If the full combo bar can be filled with scores that ultimately look like [12][34] spamming throughout the chart's duration, I fail to see the point of tracking them.
Well there is no point to it in a context where FC should be some kind of performance metric. Currently, the main metric of skill FFR uses does not equate to any combo-related thing. Therefore, it does seem somewhat odd to enforce the basis of argument that FC must be about performance as defined by skill rating.

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If a player gets 200+ goods but maintains a relatively low boo count, at least they're demonstrating an intention to play the file as it's written.
I can guarantee you that I will still mash each and every section I can on the harder files to squeeze into a semi-arbitrary relative % of boos requirement while keeping 0 miss.

That being said, you could still get a low enough boo count, get a single miss, and not earn the FC. So from a completionist mindset, where a player doesn't want to focus on skill rating at any given time, they'd Still be incentivized to mash the harder sections of the charts they can almost do well enough on, just to grab these few more FC points.

For these reasons, I feel like the arguments presented so far for a "relative % boos FC" are weak, and that a "AA" equivalent metric would suit the premise much better as some kind of "you did good enough" metric.

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Old 08-15-2021, 06:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Care to elaborate ?
Well, it depends if there's some value into filtering FCs per quality.

e.g: Normal FC vs Non-mashed FC(?) vs clean FC vs SDG FC.

This is more for the Engine than the FC bar tbh. It's fun to track for giving yourself goals.

I personally think the FC/AAA/TP bar should at some point be replaced with condensed information that is relevant to the current reality of the game which is still being discussed atm.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Here We Go had different requirements that is more "raw scoring friendly".

It all depends on how we want the game to evolve to suit the player's need. I'm assuming we have FCs because it's a fun stat to track for progressing when AAA doesn't feel realistic.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:16 PM   #26
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Keeping the FC bar and having FC* count towards that, while adding an additional SDG or AA bar (don't know if we need to have both necessarily) is what I'd like to see personally
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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I can guarantee you that I will still mash each and every section I can on the harder files to squeeze into a semi-arbitrary relative % of boos requirement while keeping 0 miss.

That being said, you could still get a low enough boo count, get a single miss, and not earn the FC. So from a completionist mindset, where a player doesn't want to focus on skill rating at any given time, they'd Still be incentivized to mash the harder sections of the charts they can almost do well enough on, just to grab these few more FC points.

For these reasons, I feel like the arguments presented so far for a "relative % boos FC" are weak, and that a "AA" equivalent metric would suit the premise much better as some kind of "you did good enough" metric.
There's a big difference between mashing through a small portion of a chart that may be overwhelming while playing the rest legitimately vs hitting the same inputs for every chart regardless of what's on the screen.

I'm in the camp that finds this statistic pointless to track if the latter is something players will end up doing. That's the extent of what I'm willing to argue about this.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I've always seen the fc as a step towards the aaa. The fc bar should count fc* though. It's never felt good to lose a fc if I got a better raw score that happens to have a miss. It feels like I'm going backwards.

I'm indifferent on a sdg/AA bar. Seeing sdg in the client is good enough for me.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by One Winged Angel View Post
There's a big difference between mashing through a small portion of a chart that may be overwhelming while playing the rest legitimately vs hitting the same inputs for every chart regardless of what's on the screen.

I'm in the camp that finds this statistic pointless to track if the latter is something players will end up doing. That's the extent of what I'm willing to argue about this.
There is a significant difference yes.
I can't argue that bold section; what you find meaningful in a game is purely subjective. Therefore for that same reason, if a non-negligible amount of players consider it a fun metric, the decision to keep it or not is Entirely up to "do you think there are enough players who like that metric to warrant keeping it ?", and not "do you think the metric is meaningful". This is basic game design, and can be seen in countless games where there's some accomplishment/completion stat which has nothing to do with the main path/quest/metric of the game.

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I've always seen the fc as a step towards the aaa. The fc bar should count fc* though. It's never felt good to lose a fc if I got a better raw score that happens to have a miss. It feels like I'm going backwards.
In bold are somewhat contradictory statements. A significant amount of PBs from all the player base are close to AAA but not an FC. Also as others mentionned, FC* does incentivize mashing for that specific metric, therefore if it counted it would most definitely be Less of a step towards AAA than it currently is.

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Old 08-15-2021, 07:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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In bold are somewhat contradictory statements
I get understanding my statement as contradictory. I dont think there's much reward to mashing fc's in terms of both improvement and the tokens associated with the fc count. So I'm not really worried about potentially incentivising mashing for fc's. Maybe I'm a bit naive on that idea. I'm not against adding a requirement for a maximum limit of boos to have an fc count.The 2% max boo cut-off mentioned earlier in the thread seems reasonable to me.

I'll admit losing the fc on a better score is more of an emotional complaint.
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Old 08-15-2021, 08:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Ok. There seems to be 2 main thought processes in here.

1. Relevance of secondary metrics regarding how we measure skill.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that it's perfectly fine for any game to have metrics/elements that aren't related to the main focus of the game. People have to accept that not everybody find meaning/fun in the same things.

If however you are adamant on redefining FC to become relevant to today's skill measure (since it was the case with Combo scoring), AND do not agree with point 2. below, please mention it.

2. Importance of a "good enough" metric.

The closest we have to this is SDG (Single Digit (Raw) Goods). This flag is fun, and I believe most people like it. However, although it's a nice metric that should stay, SDG is pretty close to a AAA relative to most songs note counts and/or structure.

Most suggested redefinitions of FC tend to reflect a need for a more loose, "good enough" metric that could be similar to a Etterna/Stepmania AA. I believe that with the implementation of such a metric, we would effectively satisfy most requests stated here.

---

If there is enough agreement on this, I will start a new thread to discuss that new metric.
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Old 08-15-2021, 11:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
Ok. There seems to be 2 main thought processes in here.

1. Relevance of secondary metrics regarding how we measure skill.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that it's perfectly fine for any game to have metrics/elements that aren't related to the main focus of the game. People have to accept that not everybody find meaning/fun in the same things.

If however you are adamant on redefining FC to become relevant to today's skill measure (since it was the case with Combo scoring), AND do not agree with point 2. below, please mention it.

2. Importance of a "good enough" metric.

The closest we have to this is SDG (Single Digit (Raw) Goods). This flag is fun, and I believe most people like it. However, although it's a nice metric that should stay, SDG is pretty close to a AAA relative to most songs note counts and/or structure.

Most suggested redefinitions of FC tend to reflect a need for a more loose, "good enough" metric that could be similar to a Etterna/Stepmania AA. I believe that with the implementation of such a metric, we would effectively satisfy most requests stated here.

---

If there is enough agreement on this, I will start a new thread to discuss that new metric.
I think AA would be a nice flag to have and would make playing stuff well outside of your AAA/SDG range more engaging.
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Old 08-16-2021, 10:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills

The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol

Seeing as the current skill rating meta is based on raw goods and combo means nothing then why bother with an FC progress bar at all?

An SDG progress bar seems like a great idea.
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Old 08-16-2021, 10:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills

The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol

Seeing as the current skill rating meta is based on raw goods and combo means nothing then why bother with an FC progress bar at all?

An SDG progress bar seems like a great idea.
The argument of the "Progress Bars" isnt bad tbh. I would suggest you read my replies to OWA's posts, since they address this "skill measurement" side of it. That being said, when it comes to the bars on the player profile, FCs could indeed be removed from there and put elsewhere. However, I would be quite surprised if a significant amount of people still used profile completion bars to assess skill vs the leaderboards. I think there's an equally valid point to be made about how profiles can hold more trivial data that arent directly representative of skill anymore.
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Old 08-16-2021, 12:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

My opinion is to just simply hide (not necessarily remove) FC statistics on the profile. I have a few reasons to believe this.

Firstly, Dynam0 is correct in stating that the main goal of capturing statistics is to study useful information about a player's skillset. Back in the days when combo-based scoring played a significant role in defining player skills, FC counts actually represent something meaningful to the playerbase. Fast forward to today when raw-based scoring is now in effect, these counts had no relevance to the Skills Rating Formula used to measure AAA equivalency. Because of this, what was once a useful stat now became meaningless in today's standards due to this change of definition of "skill".

To address a few potential points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
Remove the metric: The main argument against keeping FC-related stats is the incentive to mash on charts, which is a remnant of the combo-scoring times of FFR. It is a valid argument, and it attempts to make the game more focused on the main metric instead. Removing this metric however means that some Tokens would need to be redefined, which is quite a bit more work; some players might have worked hard to unlock a given FC-based token. This approach would definitely require more unanimous approval from the community.
What I highlighted in bold isn't necessarily true. You can simply remove the bars but keep the FC stats in the backend reserved for token requirements. Not sure if that's easy to implement or not on the dev side of things though.

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That being said, "encourages mashing" is a big statement, which I would tend to disagree with too. It would only encourage it for that given FC metric, which is well known to be an optional thing in FFR (Skill rating/AAA equiv being the main focus for ranked performance).
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Leave the FC bar but make it include both regular FC's and FC*'s.
Even if FFR uses raw-good scoring now rather than combo-based scoring, the site still in some basis encourages players to mash for FCs like for quite a few skill token unlock requirements. Think that if the site slightly encourages that for skill tokens, it overall shouldn't be a reason to remove the FC bar altogether.
Disagree with what I highlighted above in bold. The combo-based scoring back in the old day incentivizes people to mash files, not the FC count. As Gradient mentioned, the only exception is the FC-related token requirements shown here, which are already generous enough not to encourage mashing due to the larger number of songs in the engine: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...token_info.php. That said, you don't necessarily need the bars on your profile to make the token unlocks work. For that reason, it's why I suggested hiding the FC stats rather than removing it.

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i like the FC bar, i can actually fill it up, unlike the AAA bar. Its a small neat completionist thing and its nice to have it around. It might not be the main focus of the game but its a cool side objective so why get rid of it. If AAA eq is the most important thing and we get rid of everything else, if i'm not getting new scores in my top 15 why play? I think having small things like this that you can grind are good side things to do while you're not playing your best.
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Ever since the change from Combo scoring to Raw scoring I've wanted the FC bar to be reworked. I don't think it should be removed even if it's not getting reworked: some people are still interested in FC's even though it's flawed, and people that don't care about FC's can just ignore it.
These points are all fair, but then you can also make the same argument about playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc. Why is FC the only worthy metric to be acknowledged on the site vs these other different definitions of metrics or stats?

If we are extremely adamant about wanting to track FC's for "completionist reasons", incorporating FC* makes the FC stat much more confusing and incentivizes mashing:

a) Every current statistic in the game track information about the current state of your best scores. If you look at your level ranks, you can easily see what songs are AAA'd, FC'd, etc. If FC* is incorporated in the FC count, you should have a second column tracking what your best FC score is for each song to add more transparency on what is being counted as an FC* or not. Otherwise, you'll get questions like "What is an FC*?" But having two high scores per song is already too ridiculous of an idea.

b) FC* definitely encourages mashing... If you want to be completionist about filling up the FC + FC* bar, it's not going to be too challenging to mash your way through the song to at least register a FC* per song, and then replace all your high scores with your PBs. So introducing FC* would also encourage terrible gameplay for very little gain (since FCs don't matter in skill rating anyways...). The only gain you get from it is your satisfaction of completing the FC bar. In my opinion, not worth it.

I am however +1 for SDG bar. I'd ideally prefer it to be a different color or pattern laid on top of the AAA bar instead of it being considered a second bar in itself on the profile.
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Old 08-16-2021, 01:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Fwiw I'm 100% ok with removing FC's as a tracked metric. The point about the difficulty of its removal was mostly my quick thoughts, but if it turns out to be a simple thing then that just makes things simpler

I was mostly arguing the scenario where if it's to stay, it shouldnt stay as it is right now because it's not optimal at all.

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Old 08-16-2021, 02:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by WirryWoo View Post
These points are all fair, but then you can also make the same argument about playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc. Why is FC the only worthy metric to be acknowledged on the site vs these other different definitions of metrics or stats?
FC has been tracked since forever, and I know players that have getting FC's as their goal. They already spent a lot of hours in it. So removing it would be bad for them.

If FC's weren't tracked yet, then I do agree it shouldn't be tracked now. Just like playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc.
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Old 08-16-2021, 02:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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FC has been tracked since forever, and I know players that have getting FC's as their goal. They already spent a lot of hours in it. So removing it would be bad for them.

If FC's weren't tracked yet, then I do agree it shouldn't be tracked now. Just like playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc.
All of my top scores are also being tracked via Legacy Engine, but unfortunately they will be removing the engine by the end of this year. Even though it sucks for me, I accepted that.

However, my scores will not be wiped because they're removing Legacy engine. Similarly, their scores will not be wiped because they're removing the FC bar on the profile. If they really care about FCs, they should be happier about the scores they receive on their accounts.

If the only definition of value for these players are simply "filling up the FC bar", then I honestly don't know what to say lmfao.
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Old 08-16-2021, 03:36 PM   #39
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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As Gradient mentioned, the only exception is the FC-related token requirements shown here, which are already generous enough not to encourage mashing due to the larger number of songs in the engine: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...token_info.php.
1) You're forgetting the skill tokens where you have to FC a single specific file that is either too difficult throughout for a lower level player like extratone pirates, or FC something that's alright but with an extremely bullshit section prone to mash through to combo like Music for kirby.

2) You saying that %range of files for certain 'Normal/Achievement' Token unlocks is generous because of number of files is also ignoring the lower level players that are still going to be going for the unlock by, you know, mainly mashing it because they're not at the skill level that the majority of files you're talking about are at.
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Old 08-16-2021, 03:45 PM   #40
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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If the only definition of value for these players are simply "filling up the FC bar", then I honestly don't know what to say lmfao.
It's as if you've never in your life seen someone enjoy a completely optional side quest or minigame of any game ever. Can't you let people have their own fun that doesn't 100% match yours ? Smh. Yes there have been legit arguments on both sides, but the more you post the more it's about "a feature you dont care about shouldn't exist".

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