Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Oct 16]

[XCV]

Originally Posted by Guest15937

I've said it before, but all these extra stats and rankings really are pretty meaningless until the game's biggest problem (combo scoring) is addressed

For years. I don't think I've ever asked this before; is there some technical reason that combo scoring is still a thing (that is, beyond a better replacement than raw score, and the computational load of calculating it) or is it just "it's always been done this way" or an argument along those lines (not trying to strawman you guys, just talking about inertia)?

[FF_rules]

So I must be a broken record because I'm sure other people have stated this earlier; Will there be a change to how certain scores are easier to get points in compared to others?

Currently my Skill rating is artificially boosted by short songs with high difficulty that has relatively easy patterns for 90% of the song and a small spike of hard notes that can be done in under 20 goods.
#1 63 party 4u "holy nite mix" v2 53.639 653 13 0 0 0
#2 56 ABCDEath 50.630 375 8 0 0 2

[Red Blaster]

I got a new AAA and my skill rating dropped down a few points, I may be confused about how this works but shouldn't it only go up if that happens?

[FF_rules]

Originally Posted by Red Blaster

I got a new AAA and my skill rating dropped down a few points, I may be confused about how this works but shouldn't it only go up if that happens?

A few people probably got better scores than you. I watched my rank go up by 2 points just reading this thread.

[Red Blaster]

Lol my skill level is based off of other players?
That seems inaccurate as fuck.

[kmay]

you are ranked by your skill, but you have your own stats. relax.

[EzExZeRo7497]

Originally Posted by FF_rules

A few people probably got better scores than you. I watched my rank go up by 2 points just reading this thread.

He's referring to the skill rating number, not the rank.

Anyway, it shouldn't be possible. The only possible reason would be when the difficulty of a file in your top 4 went down.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by Red Blaster

I got a new AAA and my skill rating dropped down a few points, I may be confused about how this works but shouldn't it only go up if that happens?

Your AAA didn't matter and either
a. other people surpassed you in the meantime
b. something in your top 4 got difficulty nerfed.

and it's silly that only 4 scores determine your FFR rank, but alas...

[icontrolyourworld]

curious, are the 4 songs that your rating is based off, the same top 5 as the ones from the list of 50 songs that you can check?

[PrawnSkunk]

Originally Posted by FF_rules

Will there be a change to how certain scores are easier to get points in compared to others?

No, we will not change the rating yield or difficulty of individual songs to be higher/lower than their official rating. I notice you have already opened a thread in the Contested Chart Difficulties sub-forum! This is the best action you can take towards changing the in-game difficulty and skill rating yield of a particular song. It is important to note (especially with songs like ABCDeath), that the difficulty system is based on difficulty to AAA, not how challenging a song is to full combo, or even SDG.

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

curious, are the 4 songs that your rating is based off, the same top 5 as the ones from the list of 50 songs that you can check?

Yes, they are!

[Silvuh]

Originally Posted by FF_rules

Will there be a change to how certain scores are easier to get points in compared to others?

Really, this seems totally reasonable to me. Skill rating is based on one's best "AAA-equivalent" scores, which is a function of PA and difficulty, but difficulty being based on the AAA means the two ideas are conflicting. Like, eight goods on ABCDEath is not the same as eight goods on Happy Happy Shining Star!! [Heavy].

If we really want to make skill ratings more accurate, we shouldn't shut this down without question just because official difficulties are based on the AAA, and that's that.

What if files were to have two difficulties, one for the AAA and one for PA?

So as your PA gets better, the difficulty that factors into your skill score goes on a curve from its PA difficulty to its AAA difficulty. Some files may be consistent enough that there's no difference, so we could just start with the ones that stand out to the community.

A harder example is Blue Rose and A Kidney Stone. Blue Rose has thirty fewer SDGs, but its rank 200 score is around 45 goods, and A Kidney Stone's is over 90 goods. One is harder to SDG and one is harder to PA. (My score on Blue Rose is better than my scores on most 79s, and I don't have the stamina for files like AKS.) I know a file's difficulty isn't just a function of its scores, but ... a file's difficulty curve kind of mostly is, I guess? If everyone's playing to their current potential, maybe, but I know that's an unreasonable assumption, so ... ugh.

I don't know. I mean, I understand that there are a lot of factors to this, so it's too tough to make it perfect, and it'd be more work, and you can't please everyone, anyway ... But it just doesn't feel right to not do anything about it, because it's easy to see how having one AAA-based difficulty would have issues when being scaled by scores past the AAA.

[FF_rules]

Originally Posted by Silvuh

What if files were to have two difficulties, one for the AAA and one for PA?

I find this a better solution than changing the Difficulty of the songs in question. Though if this is implemented then it also leaves a framework for introducing Raw scoring too.

Edit: I've jumped my 2nd-4th scores up a bit (2-4 points higher) but I'm still at 5102 skill rating. Is this normal?
Edit2: nvm I had to hit the refresh in the actual bar and not just the browser.

[SillyKana]

Originally Posted by reuben_tate

That polynomial approximation =3

Anyways, I just wanted to bring up one point made in the OP. It says that it's impossible to decrease your skill rating. However, isn't this still possible considering that scores are still being recorded using combo scoring and this measure of skill uses raw scoring? If someone "beats" their previous score with a better combo score but with worse PA, wouldn't their skill rating drop as a result?

Can confirm with proof that this is a thing that can happen

I had a massive rank drop on a previous song but I couldn't get proof of it, so I experimented with this one.

Before




Then I played this




Decided to update and check the leaderboard and oh take a looksy






And then there's the average rank congratulations, I have no idea even

[MarcusHawkins]

Originally Posted by SillyKana

Can confirm with proof that this is a thing that can happen

I had a massive rank drop on a previous song but I couldn't get proof of it, so I experimented with this one.

Before




Then I played this




Decided to update and check the leaderboard and oh take a looksy






And then there's the average rank congratulations, I have no idea even

^^ Where do you find that skill rating screen?

[Kanzas]

Originally Posted by MarcusHawkins

^^ Where do you find that skill rating screen?

Click on the little Bars next to the refresh.

[FF_rules]

Originally Posted by FF_rules

So I must be a broken record because I'm sure other people have stated this earlier; Will there be a change to how certain scores are easier to get points in compared to others?

Currently my Skill rating is artificially boosted by short songs with high difficulty that has relatively easy patterns for 90% of the song and a small spike of hard notes that can be done in under 20 goods.
#1 63 party 4u "holy nite mix" v2 53.639 653 13 0 0 0
#2 56 ABCDEath 50.630 375 8 0 0 2

I feel like party 4u and ABCDEath are way too easy of a song to inflate a score into almost D3 range. Ievan Polkka if you're able to do semi consistent jacks.
Like seriously; both of those songs are just D40-50 songs with small amounts of D60 speed mash.
Edit: I find it funny my party 4u score is incredibly close in skill level to someone who can get 18g on a D70 song. (SHI*O*KA*RA*)

This is worth 56.22 skill rating, why? idk

[Red Blaster]

And yet you're still somehow D2 in tournaments.
Get outta here.

[Deidara837]

You can see where my average scores sit around, ERB and MFDFY fall into your category of "easy for most of the song" (except ERB has awkwardness through the whole thing, MFDFY less spread out but still has the gluts and jumptrills)
The thing is I find it funny that AAAing a 70 is worth more than my sub-20 Heatstroke and 7-4-1-5 Bloops
I'm still D5 with 12g Fanteucpx[zv

Basically I'm complaining for the same reasoning but focused on the Skill Rating falloff being rather harsh, if you can get 16g on an 87 you can AAA a 70 but I'm not sure the converse is true

[SKG_Scintill]

Everyone has things they're good and bad at

Unrelated edit:
If I can suggest something, can you make it so that you can FORCE a score to save over your existing one?
Right now I'm having difficulty improving my Necropotence score because I have a mashFC, though I can get 20s with a miss or 2

[Zapmeister]

regarding party 4u v2: that song is a 63 partly because of the annoying blue background that plays when you have the no background mod turned off, which greatly adds to the difficulty. it used to be the case that the no background mod wouldn't record scores but that changed for some reason i'll never understand. so we should change it so that either it isn't a 63 or the no background mod needs to disable score recording again

abcdeath: yeah this song is really easy for a d2 player to get sdg on because it's so short. that's probably just an artefact of the ffr difficulty system and how it's biased towards aaa's and not sdg's, whereas this skill rating system gives a lot more weight to sdg's

regarding 16 goods on 87 vs aaa on 70: this is a consequence of the fact that the rating system is multiplicative in terms of difficulty, which i pointed out a few pages back and got ignored (i think this is actually important)

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

also your system assumes that the difficulty scale is multiplicative. i mean like if you have 2 people and one of them can comfortably aaa 30's and the other one can aaa 60's and you get the first person to play a 40 and the second person to play an 80 then they'll get roughly the same score. i'm not 100% convinced on this bit but that's just my impression so feel free to convince me otherwise.

obviously the multiplicativeness doesn't hold for scores at both ends like 1-5 or 90+, but the question of whether it works in the middle of the range is something i'd like to have an answer for.