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Old 10-18-2020, 10:24 PM   #1
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Default On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

For many years, FFR has been a place where I truly believe that someone can become a top-tier forum player on. I have considered it a very high point of my pride, going so far as to sig the fact that FFR has had the highest success rate of any internet forum/community in mafia champ games. I have believed that the game, at its core, is very emotional and as such, insults and personal attacks are just part of the game. I think that, if I had really thought about it, that I would justify the personal aspect of the game as being necessary. I speak not only for myself when I say that I think that this is no longer the case.

I think that there is room for very, very competitive games while also being more respectful to one another than we have been over these years. Its bad for growing the community is one important aspect, and I know the counterargument is to say that "if people get upset in their first game, they're probably not cut out for TWG." I think that there is less truth to this statement than might appear. If the community has standards of decency that are consistently upheld, then necessarily, the newer players will feel more comfortable.

I know this is not a unanimously agreed point, but I do think we, at the very least, should talk formally about whether or not we should reduce the toxicity in games.

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Regardless, I would like another TWG sub forum moderator. I'm not sure how best to choose this person, and would like input on this matter as well.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

The more I ruminate on it, I think that one of the reasons I've come to enjoy playing games when I do, it's when I don't have to worry as much about whats going to be said about me or my play.
I can dish out as much as I receive, but there's a point where in-game can reach out and touch my anger points outside of the game and that's maybe as much a personal flaw as it is those I'm playing with -- see the last turbo I played in -- but I do agree that we can afford to be at least more respectful and mindful that people behind these usernames and avatars are people. They're friends.

Ultimately we're here to have a good time and there are ways to play that don't rely on dragging our friends through the muck in order to make ourselves look, or feel, an iota better.

My 2c. Hope it makes sense.


EDIT: Maybe we could give post-game threads some time before going up just so we can all chill before flaming in those threads? They're meant for constructive criticism, not to just spew emotional vitriol.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

one place where I'd absolutely draw the line is postgame

we should all try to be supportive of each other and good sports during postgame, and focus on our own mistakes for people who want to improve

the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating is the worst part of postgame and there's no excuse for it

flaming in a game is whatever although I'm a little bit taken aback when someone wishes to smash another's head open with a brick to "see if anything comes out the ears", even in jest
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i was pretty close to letting this slide tbh, but honestly your utter lack of understanding of the situation irritates me more than anything else at this point
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seriously everything i wrote went way over your head if your reading comprehension is so far below third grade level while people may care about your opinion you should refrain from giving it because it's worthless
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i want the current twg mods to seek out another tbh. kick names around like it's a twg or something

i don't think postgame thread timing matters because if it goes up late people just find other ways to postgame
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Alright before I actually post, what are we specifically trying to target to reduce toxicity?

We barely have hard tunnel games.
No one actually bullies anyone.
People get a bit heated and say some stuff with “them there curse words.”
No one intentionally hard throws games on purpose.

Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?

I want to make sure my contribution is as accurate, because frankly I don’t see an actual problem, just a loose, open to interpretation ass hole of conceptual shit.

Like I am asking because I don’t see anything I’d specifically class as “toxic” but my bars are heavily shifted from most of you.
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Old 10-18-2020, 11:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?
"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?
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i was pretty close to letting this slide tbh, but honestly your utter lack of understanding of the situation irritates me more than anything else at this point
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seriously everything i wrote went way over your head if your reading comprehension is so far below third grade level while people may care about your opinion you should refrain from giving it because it's worthless
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Oh people have given me examples before I'm good on that.

I'm asking for a definition so we can have a deeper conversation then our standard "be nice in a game about not being nice" discussions.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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Originally Posted by flashflash account View Post
"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?
I don't think the complaints are about what happens in post game, so no.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:46 AM   #11
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic, TWG is a social game and things get heated, that’s fine. My example is the difference between someone making the choice to be verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending verses not being so, and at the end of the day, that’s where I think the problem lies.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic
Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made

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I think we can all agree that we have not been enforcing where the line is, and maybe we ought to begin doing that
So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made



So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.
Regardless of why this thread was created, banning certain words/phrases/slurs is not going to fix anything.

There are members of this community that are verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending when they play. THAT, in my opinion, is the issue, and it’s unlikey to be fixed by some sort of modification of the rules.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

And I would argue TWG shouldn’t be defined as a game about not being nice, it’s about problem solving, deduction skills and lying
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I think there's clauses of gray areas regarding the subject, and speaking formally about it here, none of the actives have actively bullied or ridiculed an individual in ad hominem fashion to me. The gray area is town having the right to be frustrated at a self-destructive town game or pool, however saying "you're an idiot" should probably be stated like "that was a poor play" because people view that as a personal jest rather than a comment about what happened with poor wording (which is what I did to bug in the most recent game because I really needed him to read Cedo as a wolf and he flipped on me lol).

The last seriously toxic moment I've witnessed in FFRTWG in the last few months was when that Adam guy played with us that one game and I had to sub his slot. He said some really fucked up things and that's inexcusable. Other than that instance, I can't recall a situation that was a fraction as toxic as that event.

There's multiple lines to draw here moving forward, and I think one of the first ones would be dealing with frustration as a whole, or installing some countermeasure to excessive demeanor like repeatedly attacking someone's character rather than keeping discussion game-based. There's a lot of confusion about someone being frustrated but it being taken as toxicity, which I have to agree with defining toxicity withing TWG itself. I think that would be a good first step.

I also agree that post-game should be more about sportsmanship rather than highlighting what went wrong or bashing on any particular team for losing in any given way. There's not enough praise given when players deserve it, and we have some absolutely strong players and promising up-and-comers.

I could continue this, but I feel like I'm dragging this along more than it needed to be, and I apologize if some things I said made little sense, but I'm glad to see even an attempt at figuring out as a collective whole means to improve the community and the matches moving forward.
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:48 AM   #16
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Yeah, this is probably one of the biggest reason why I stopped.

The other because I've done it myself and I don't wish to bad mouth anyone. I think I've been good about moderating myself the last few times I played, but meh.

Also just seeing the same type of crud on others mafia sites or spinoffs (ToS, Among us, ect) makes me believe there's really no avoiding it since the games at its core is all about lying and trying to clear yourself. It doesn't help that innocent players, when being pinned with being guilty for what they believe to be a "stupid" reason, are of course going to not think fondly of everyone accused.

Then there's the issue of when I see actual guilty players use this as a means to win. By name calling, attacking someone's thinking, ect. Like I said, I've done this before when I was considered a good wolf. It's... not right. I nor anyone should do that to get a win. It's playing dirty.

...

Was the last game that toxic? I didn't watch the game, lmao
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.

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Old 10-19-2020, 09:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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Was the last game that toxic? I didn't watch the game, lmao
No, but blaming me for being toxic (whatever that term means here) was more preferable to town then admiting their faults.

This whole thread sprang from those accusations and if this is going to just be a call out thread it'll be really cool if people dropped the pretense and just called me out like we're adults.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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No, but blaming me for being toxic (whatever that term means here) was more preferable to town then admiting their faults.

This whole thread sprang from those accusations and if this is going to just be a call out thread it'll be really cool if people dropped the pretense and just called me out like we're adults.
I actually got curious myself and decided to glance through the game.

...

Besides the other big problem (inactives), the emotional part I was describing was very much in the game that just ended.

The insults could be toned down, for sure. However, your bite-y posts were just that.

Bite-y.

Most of them were anyways. There were some insults here and there, but again, that goes back to the "heat of the moment" spiel. Biggest issue last game from what I glanced was honestly the inactivity more than the toxicity.
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:12 AM   #19
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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I actually got curious myself and decided to glance through the game.

...

Besides the other big problem (inactives), the emotional part I was describing was very much in the game that just ended.

The insults could be toned down, for sure. However, your bite-y posts were just that.

Bite-y.

Most of them were anyways. There were some insults here and there, but again, that goes back to the "heat of the moment" spiel. Biggest issue last game from what I glanced was honestly the inactivity more than the toxicity.
Yeah it's probably more me losing my shit in deadchat and people not wanting ti be called out in post more then anything I feel.

Except who knows because no one's really defining quantifiable issues.

I get examples like what you and and Bolth post seem like they're clear but since a lot of it is interpretation anyway (I use to make up insults if you recall, and people legit would get hung up on being called something like bathwater harder then just fucker) it just seems like a pointless circle of debate.

Also maybe this is me taking it too personal but if I'm more toxic again what even does that word mean anyway then any other player it's probably 95% because I actually have a decent post volume and everyone else is slanking. Bug's flip from unsure newbie to arrogance the moment he got cleared would be considered toxic to some people but since he spent the game largely not playing it until the last phase nobody is going to really care.
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

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Yeah it's probably more me losing my shit in deadchat and people not wanting ti be called out in post more then anything I feel.

Except who knows because no one's really defining quantifiable issues.
isn't deadchat where the dead go to rant though...?

I also thought you were too harsh on bugkid, I brought it up in the game while you were doing it. This might sound weird but I think there is a level of... closeness? that is needed if you are going to get so personal and insulting without it having that negative impact.

Bugkid is new to the forum and relatively new friend to everyone here except Xiz. Meanwhile most of us have played a thousand games and know exactly what each other are like. Bugkid doesn't know that. If you insult me I just shrug it off like "what a very Lar thing to do", but all Bugkid sees is someone being a jerk to them without any context of that person's play style. It's off putting
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