Old 10-13-2013, 03:29 PM   #1
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Default Turbo (87 or ???)

87 seems to be where all a lot of bullshit jack files get dumped (Tell v3, Scarhand Heavy, etc) but Turbo's scoreboard already seems like it doesn't belong with the rest of them.

In under a week Turbo already has 5 AAAs, just one less than RWOB, Chik Habit, and Music for Kirby, files that have been out for literally years longer. Some top-tier players haven't even played Turbo yet and the top of its scoreboard is already cleaner than its fellow public 87s.

However, the FC difficulty of Turbo is clearly very hard. Despite having 5 AAAs, there are only 20 FCs, a very high ratio of AAAs to FCs. The file is by design one that people can either score very well on, or not even hope to FC.

So, where does it belong? Should it remain 87 or be placed lower (or higher due to the FC difficulty?)
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Thread approved. I know a lot of you have different stands on this.
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:40 AM   #3
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

I say bump it to an 85.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

I think its fine where it is, Its one of those files that will be extremely hard to place no matter how you look at it. If you're really good at jacking and have the speed for it, you're going to do well on it. If you don't, You're probably going to do terrible. Not much in between.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

The leaderboards are pretty normal for an 87... up to 12th place anyway. Starts off normally, ranging from AAAs to 7-0-0-4 at rank 12 (which is pretty high for an 87 really) and then plummets to 29g or worse. So the scoreboards don't really reflect anything lower than an 87, despite the fact that it's new. I'm pretty certain that even when every top tier player plays this file, the scoreboard wouldn't be as good as the other 87s out there.

Turbo is 150.67 BPM. Not a perfectly clean BPM, but there aren't any really bad framers whatsoever (though I did see two framered minijacks but at 150 it's relatively minor) so framer issues shouldn't be a factor. Though, Turbo's jacks are as fast as Almost There and Revolutionary Etude, albeit less complex and come in shorter spurts instead of one large run of jacks. I don't think the jacky files in the 87 range (Scarhand, Tell) can be compared since they're around... 30 BPM faster than Turbo if I'm not wrong. 30 BPM is a huge difference, especially for jacks at this speed.

Even despite the fact that they only come in small runs, it's still relentlessly hard since it has no hand bias whatsoever so you need to be good at jacking with both hands in order to score somewhat decently. Not to mention there's jumps too, so it's still tricky to PA even if you can wrist jack well. File structure to me looks like 87-88 objectively, but how this plays to players is so subjective that it's absolutely ridiculous. Players like bmah (low D6?) can get 7 goods on this and can probably improve, but other players like TC_Halogen (mid D7, maybe higher) gets teens with misses in a usual run.

Rob and I have no idea how to rate this at all, haha. We just shoved it there because Tell v3 and Scarhand [Heavy] are in there really. Scoreboard reflects an 87, maybe higher, the file to me feels like an 87-88 despite the fact that I'm somewhat good at wrist jacking.
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Let's take a look at what turbo has to offer.

I'll explain what this picture means in a minute, but for now I want to bring up another song



Let's take a look at AIM Anthem. AIM Anthem on spread plays like an FGO at the [34][14][34][14] part on spread, but it's stepped in a way where if you have an index setup with all 4 keys close to each other you can bypass the patterns much easier. This is why I can agree with its mid FMO rating, although for some players who can't sustain jacks for long it plays like a mid-high FGO to them from FC difficulty.

Going back to my picture: I brought up AIM Anthem because in the picture I posted above using an index setup is not as practical. Turbo has both up and down jacks like these, requiring good control on both hands. A person who isn't fast enough or can't sustain jack speed for that long will find themselves falling behind on the last note of the 16th jacks. The late good window on the last note of the jack means you're already going into the 8th note despite there being a gap. Also consider the left and right arrows to deal with in between these transitions. For a better idea of what this feels like, play turbo on a high rate, say 1.4 rate to see what I mean by the jack overlapping into the 8th note. This is to illustrate what it is like for someone who isn't as fast/efficient at the jacks, and winds up falling behind. And since these jacks are in the same column right next to each other, the player can get totally screwed over if he/she falls behind.

I do have to say this file takes a LOT of control and falling behind can totally destroy someone's score as well as the FC. I'd actually say Turbo is fine at 87, but I would not be against anyone who wants it placed a bit lower.

Also for clarification: Tell is 163 BPM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

From a bad player's experience, it FELT easier than an 87. I don't know why, it just did. The jacks seemed manageable at that bpm and the surrounding notes were not too incredibly difficult. As much as I probably scored worse on Turbo, I feel AIM Anthem which brings jacks, the main concern for this file that you bring up, is a harder file. So, I can agree with knocking off a few points.

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Old 10-14-2013, 09:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Again, this is one of those issues where the rating fluctuates depending on how much weight should be attributed to FC difficulty and how much to AAA difficulty. Turbo is probably harder to FC than at least half the other 87s for a good player, but easier to AAA than some 82/83s if you can keep up with those jacks. So what, do we just take the midpoint from there? Place it higher for FC difficulty? Or attribute the most weight to how hard it is to AAA (since that's really what all players ultimately aim for eventually on FFR)?

For reference, I'd like to put this at 84 (and perhaps shift some of the other 84s upwards or downwards since there'd be about 14 files at that level now and only 8 in both 83 and 85...maybe send Go Beyond and Planet Karma up [others might disagree with PK but I think it's reasonable to have this within two points of RWoB] and Hardkore Atomic and Kidney Stone down)
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

to compensate for file being heavily biased towards one specific skill, 85 sounds fine
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:12 AM   #10
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Is there a reason why you wouldn't want Turbo to be a 84 so it can unlock St.Scarhand?
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

I thought I'm as fast as


But when I play this file I feel like


because my left hand can't hit the


so unless I'm

I
'll never humanely
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

'd as fuc






ps) i think u mean
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

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Old 10-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #14
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

From a really good players' perspective, this file is buttloads easier to AAA than any other 87 on the list. Going down, it's even easier than all of the 86's. I think 85 is a good spot for it from a AAA perspective...I find jacks of this nature to be my strong suit and I'm factoring that in here as well. Giving a file a difficulty rating based on how hard it is to FC for an average player is a little silly because it's most likely going to end up scaling directly the same with how hard it is to AAA for a good player (the falling behind point dossar made is indicative of an average player, whereas good players will struggle to maintain control and not rush goods etc.).

This same thing applies to AIM Anthem and Club which are both heavily biased towards sustaining jacks. Average players might not keep up for an FC and good players need to focus on control to AAA so to me these files scale the same in that regard too. The problem with Club/AIM Anthem is that they are jack-based and average players who excel at jacks can go from a terrible score to a AAA or close because suddenly they aren't falling behind anymore. The fact that this file is tough to FC for average players shouldn't make it an 87 because once those players attain a skill level where they can SDG other 87's, this file becomes much easier than an 87. Jacking files will always seem much higher in difficulty to an average player than a good player I guess.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Hmm, it's always difficult for me to rank songs correctly in the difficulty range of 80+ especially with a file that's based around pretty much one type of skill. I'd say anything between 84-87 would be pretty reasonable but I could definitely see this one possibly being ranked a little lower. Also I used to be good at jacks but this one wrecked me ;_;
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Pardon that morning rant eze, I'm still sick and it's probably showing lol

I think turbo is easier to AAA than the other 87's and even 86's, so it should be an 85. Files like AIM Anthem (71) and Club (70) are also jacking files and are probably considered higher in difficulty (FGO level) to an average player who can't keep up with them. The same should hold true for Turbo. It plays like an 87+ for noobies but once you're good enough to keep up with it, it's an 85. I don't think this needs any more elaboration.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

i discussed this with rob and tried to explain what i was thinking but damn yo explained it a lot more succinctly than i could and was pretty much exactly the point i was trying to get across. +1 for bumping turbo down to 85.
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Old 10-14-2013, 03:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

Time to add my input I suppose. People shit themselves when I AAA'd club, which I feel is an easier than 70 song. It all has to do with what your skillset consists of. I can jack till there's no tomorrow (I have a feeling this will be turned in to a joke quote) but when it comes right down to it, given the jacks AND the speed of the jacks it's very difficult to be consistent. I think it's fine as an 87.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: Turbo (87 or ???)

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I can jack till there's no tomorrow
Anyways, I think 87 is a good spot for it.
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