Should we consider double setup "legit"

[icontrolyourworld]

OK guys hear me out on this. I know it can be used to beat jackhammers like they're no ones business, and perhaps make some specific patterns easy to hit compared to spread/index, but really why not consider it legit? It wouldn't be an easy playstyle to learn and master, but for anyone that can it might yield the next generation of skill and encourage new and interesting files that might still be fun to play using spread. From what I understand people only consider it cheating because anyone can get a good score on jackhammer madness and that's about it. The "vibrating age" is pretty much over, no one cares too much about MIHC scores anymore right? I'm more interested to see what kind of scores and potential a legit double setup player could bring to the table, maybe 400 bpm streams could become the norm for double setup players. That'd be cool right?

What do you guys think?

[Mahou]

I never thought double setup was cheating...but I know some players feel like it defeats the purpose of how the file should have been played.

[gold stinger]

FFR is 4key rhythm based game, not 8key. The game wouldn't be based around properly trying to hit patterns anymore, but trying to remember which areas of a song constitutes a 'double-tap'. I say leave it as is right now.

It also has a lot more to do than just "getting good scores on jackhammer madness", it has to do with response time, and speed, which is what makes up a large majority of good players. Don't think I'm trying to defend good players in the slightest - the problem is that 100% of players would have to scrap their playstyles for a playstyle that no one has practice using, for the chance of being able to get better scores.

tl;dr using 4 keys for 4 arrows is kind of a given and I don't see why FFR would constitute legibility of using 8 keys instead, or 16 keys, or 32, or a bot.

ps
just like how people started using hands & quads when keyboards started registering more than 2 keys at a time,
accepting 8key setup gives valid reason for charters to create 0-framers on purpose.

[korny]

You must be on a completely different level of shameless to try to justify using double set-up...

You are unfuckingbelievable dude

[FF_rules]

And here I came in expecting 8 key ffr. Double set up is fine imo but it does change the game up; There are always two sides to this story though and I can't back either..

[qqwref]

Yes, the "vibrating age" is pretty much over. Now the most impressive scores are incredible speed achievements. There's really no reason that couldn't be done with double setup too, though, with enough time, because double setup is fundamentally better than single setup. But double setup also allows someone to do a Dossar style "controlled mash" at twice the speed, with 1/100th of the skill requirement of actually playing the thing. Is that really something we want to see, D4 players easily FCing anything in the game, and top people getting a C on 900bpm stream charts and files as hard as vrofl? Take a hard 8key stream file, offset the right hand by a 32nd, layer the two sides on top of each other, and you'll see what kind of files people will be playing after a year or two of double setup being the norm.

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

[gold stinger]

using double setup also becomes a hardware issue because it requires you to use an outside program to rebind keys on your keyboard to the first set of 4 keys for playing. On top of that, keyboards for sure cannot handle 8 keys being pressed all at the same time, which would require a person to use 2 keyboards to participate in the 8 key setup properly.

[Rapta]

I'm one of those guys who says "Change? fuck thatt"

[choof]

people have enough of a problem picking up solo, double set-up play would take way too long to master and no one would call it a legitimate playstyle

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by gold stinger

FFR is 4key rhythm based game, not 8key. The game wouldn't be based around properly trying to hit patterns anymore, but trying to remember which areas of a song constitutes a 'double-tap'. I say leave it as is right now.

It also has a lot more to do than just "getting good scores on jackhammer madness", it has to do with response time, and speed, which is what makes up a large majority of good players. Don't think I'm trying to defend good players in the slightest - the problem is that 100% of players would have to scrap their playstyles for a playstyle that no one has practice using, for the chance of being able to get better scores.

tl;dr using 4 keys for 4 arrows is kind of a given and I don't see why FFR would constitute legibility of using 8 keys instead, or 16 keys, or 32, or a bot.

ps
just like how people started using hands & quads when keyboards started registering more than 2 keys at a time,
accepting 8key setup gives valid reason for charters to create 0-framers on purpose.

i kind of figured that this would come up
iirc didn't people consider spread to be like cheating when index and one hand were the norm?

Originally Posted by qqwref

Yes, the "vibrating age" is pretty much over. Now the most impressive scores are incredible speed achievements. There's really no reason that couldn't be done with double setup too, though, with enough time, because double setup is fundamentally better than single setup. But double setup also allows someone to do a Dossar style "controlled mash" at twice the speed, with 1/100th of the skill requirement of actually playing the thing. Is that really something we want to see, D4 players easily FCing anything in the game, and top people getting a C on 900bpm stream charts and files as hard as vrofl? Take a hard 8key stream file, offset the right hand by a 32nd, layer the two sides on top of each other, and you'll see what kind of files people will be playing after a year or two of double setup being the norm.

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

that's just the thing though! we knowingly acknowledge that double setup could be fundamentally better, and it does change the game, but who's to say that could be a really bad thing?
It probably would lead to double the speed of a dossar mash, i don't agree that it would be without effort though. you'd still have to work on reading skills and a lot of coordination
this would result in some ridiculous scores if done correctly but it would still be impressive at least to me

[choof]

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

i kind of figured that this would come up
iirc didn't people consider spread to be like cheating when index and one hand were the norm?

yeah but that idea was quickly squashed when people realized how limiting index/one-hand were

i think you could equate double set-up to playing any other rhythm game with two people on the same player

[danny53x]

When I first met some people decent at Stepmania irl they were using double setup

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by choof

yeah but that idea was quickly squashed when people realized how limiting index/one-hand were

i think you could equate double set-up to playing any other rhythm game with two people on the same player

and some people still dish out SUPER sick one handed and index scores. I'm not saying that we should all convert to DS just to accept that it's another playstyle that could produce its own awesome scores. it probably wouldn't even become the dominant playstyle like spread did because i think it would be harder to perfect than 1 finger per key.

i wouldn't boil it down to 2 people on the same player, because it's still one person playing it.

Originally Posted by qqwref

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

I didn't respond to this oops
so you're saying that all good scores on index/pad charts using spread "destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped"

because i don't

[lurker]

i think you just want more people to AA shanghai moon

[icontrolyourworld]

shit you caught me red handed D:

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

I didn't respond to this oops
so you're saying that all good scores on index/pad charts using spread "destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped"

because i don't

Well, I kinda don't think spread scores should really "count" for files that are clearly meant as fast pad charts. I'd rather see someone like Etienne or Vertex (rip) wreck 300bpm padstream with index than see someone like Staiain blast through the chart without difficulty - and I'd rather consider the index score the real record, with the spread score being an "oh yeah, also..." thing.

Same idea with playing xmod charts on cmod, the real best scores should be xmodded, and a cmod score is just for fun, or because you want to see what you'd get.

[Hakulyte]

Add Raw Scoring.
Move RATO and Death Piano to Legacy Tokens.
Remove vrofl, Party4u v1, TWWW and Crowdpleaser.

Now that this has been done, explain to me why someone would want to use double setup. It's not like you can hit fast stream any better, it's only useful for repetitive patterns like jack/jumpjacks and we don't have songs that are like jackhammer madness and joke files which are supposed to be rejected on sight.

TLDR; There shouldn't be any reason in-game for you to want to use DS to begin with. That should be part of the simfile judging process. So, no.

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Well, I kinda don't think spread scores should really "count" for files that are clearly meant as fast pad charts. I'd rather see someone like Etienne or Vertex (rip) wreck 300bpm padstream with index than see someone like Staiain blast through the chart without difficulty - and I'd rather consider the index score the real record, with the spread score being an "oh yeah, also..." thing.

Same idea with playing xmod charts on cmod, the real best scores should be xmodded, and a cmod score is just for fun, or because you want to see what you'd get.

see how this loops back around to what i'm saying though? if we consider double setup legit, we could potentially open the door to new fun files for doublesetup. it may or may not be fun to do on spread similar to how a lot of files nowadays aren't fun to play index, but that's a given.

i don't think it's much to ask that double setup become a legit. it feels like we're closing off the doors to a whole new realm of possibility, if this truely became a thing people might even be able to play or transition into 8k, or 6k or whatever

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

Add Raw Scoring.
Move RATO and Death Piano to Legacy Tokens.
Remove vrofl, Party4u v1, TWWW and Crowdpleaser.

Now that this has been done, explain to me why someone would want to use double setup.

I've already spoken my mind on it but here i go again:

It opens a new realm of possibility for insane scores and it wouldn't be easy to master.
It's not saying that everyone has to convert to DS, but that it should be a playstyle that is acceptable similar to how spread came to be. People can still play index, one hand, and spread and dish out cool scores, but then we also have this!
People may push scoring to a whole new level. (and spread would still be competitive)
It opens up new ideas that could be fun for a new playstyle, including charts.
It may make it easy to transition to 8k or 6k play having the muscle memory already somewhat in place, if that's something that you're interested in.
Why not? It could be fun.

So far I've been able to parallel every reason to not consider DS legit with a reason to consider it legit. I found qqwref's argument interesting that it would ruin the game, when obviously spread didn't ruin it, opening up a whole lot of things that wouldn't have been possible before. AND everyone gets to play what they like.

[Mahou]

The game has changed a lot since FFR has been released. I wouldn't mind seeing someone wreck songs with double setup.

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

How can you take advantage of double setup on FFR? If your scores are worse than your spread scores with double setup, I'd assume no one would really cares?

It's not about taking advantage, it's about being more open to different playstyles. If the scores DO happen to be worse and no one cares, why consider it cheating at all to begin with?