TWG XXIII Postgame

[talisman]

By the end of that day I was fairly uncertain about tps, which is why I didn't vote for him (I left it as a safety on nforcer). I would rather have voted for tass, since I KNEW he had to be a wolf, but I couldn't think of any justification that wouldn't flat out give away that I was in the third pair at that point, so I decided to remain quiet.

PS every single night I swore I was going to die... everyone assumed I was human and the wolves don't like helpful people, yet somehow more attractive targets kept coming up, for some reason.

[nickadeemus]

Oh yeah, TPS got lynched without a single vote from a wolf . . . I thought that was kind of funny.

[evilbutterfly]

Oh, btw, never do a game like this again. Masons = inactivity. Also, the alliance on day 1 totally screwed with everybody's inactivity. I tried to counter this by being like "oh I dunno, what do YOU think?" Also, from what I could tell, a lot of you were really active, but not on the forums. You all were figuring out, by yourself, the pairs and what to do with them. Had I not been in the center of the alliance I would have been horribly dissatisfied with this game because of the level of public activity. This is why Afro's all green game would rock. If nobody has anything (read: blues) to lose, they won't be afraid about publicly showing everything!

[talisman]

meh I tried to be active both behind the scenes and in the thread. Towards the end of the game as I knew more and more I became less and less active in the thread just to protect information, but whatever.

I know fish and I were constantly talking etc, figuring stuff out, comparing convos and stuff. I tried to come with ideas for eb to use and stuff too (the whole asking partners for their convos with each other was my idea). Some people weren't helping too much though (guido and ld especially, although some of that may have been role-related).

I think it was a fun experiment, not my most favorite game (that would still have to be eb's) and worth trying. If we ever do it again in the future, I think it might be interesting to pair one or more of the wolves with a human. Add a whole new layer of paranoia.

[GuidoHunter]

I'm pretty sure all activity was just behind the scenes. There was PLENTY of quality discussion, just behind the scenes. That only sucked for you because your partner (me) didn't do anything. This game was fine, even if the number of pages on the forums was relatively low.

talisman, I'm pretty sure we did wolf matt just to get into the alliance. The game looked pretty stacked against us, so it was the only thing we could do to balance it a bit. I didn't want Tass to be the widow just because that would look sketchy, so I did it. Kind of sucks, though, because I didn't do anything. I honestly don't have any idea how I could have gotten any information at all, let alone the guardian's name, from him though.

And Afro, gg, you beat Tasselwolf when it was 2 v. everyone else in mason pairs. I really think that if I had played this game we could have worked y'all over. But, I didn't. I feel pretty bad for letting my team down, but I had neither the motivation nor the desire to catch up and be a part of this game.

On that note, NEVER LET ME BE INACTIVE AGAIN. Seriously, my being inactive is hereby a GREAT reason to vote to lynch me. If I'm under pressure (and it's not futile, like the end of this game), I will be active, whether as a human or a wolf. Got it? Don't let me be inactive. I don't like it, but when I'm dodging all suspicion I have no motivation to return.

I have no idea why the Qreepy kill went down; I wasn't even there for discussion of it. I wolfed LD because it was painfully obvious (after the saving) that he was the guardian, as he said.

OH!

So, I basically revealed myself as a wolf to eb in my convo with Hans. I was talking to Hans and speculating that he was a wolf and wolfed matt on Night 1. Well, why would I do that if I were human and knew that matt was human? Thankfully, eb totally missed this.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[GuidoHunter]

By the way, mead, the story was AWESOME.

Except for the part where you called me a BAND GEEK. I actually got offended at that, being as how band sucks and that I make fun of band geeks.

...

Asshole...

...

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[talisman]

...but you wouldn't have gotten into the alliance after my pm, or at least not any further into than anyone else got. Hell, eb didn't tell me the pairs and shit until the last day when the guardian died and he knew that he'd need someone to carry on the alliance. Whatever, it would have definitely played out in your favor had we not gotten lucky with lynching a pair day one and two, as when three showed up on day three we would have all been like "oh it must have been one of x's or y's partners" with x and y being who we lynched day one and two.

[GuidoHunter]

That was the plan. And, that since you sent the PM, nobody would expect it.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[talisman]

why blah?

that didn't make much sense to me.

[GuidoHunter]

Guardian fishing, maybe? I dunno, I'm not the one to answer "why did you wolf ____" questions. I could look through my logs, but that would be the most effort I would have put into this game.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

ok... 1st: EB GETTING SAVED DID not GET YOU AN EXTRA DAY. We were toying with the idea from night 2 to attack eb, just so that nobody died with zero consequences.

We realized on night 1 that we would be fucked beyond all belief if the day 3 autopsy (anyone realize this is also a real word, and as such has a funny 2nd meaning?) came back 2 or 4. It HAD to come back 3 for ANY chance to win. the lone green was an unbelievably powerful tool when combined with knowing all of the mason pairs. WAY too powerful. The only shot we had of winning was wolfing one of our own AND not getting lynched on day 1 or 2. When we found out kilga and dance were pairs, we realized we were hella fucked, as that just cost us 2 surefire human lynches when we needed 3 to win.

From that point, it was insane scrapping which ALMOST resulted in afro and hans being lynched. Talisman, you say the TPS coming out saved Afro/Hans... I'd like to give you that benefit of the doubt, but the obvious evidence is that mead's fuck up directly led to EVERYONE (aka, not just you who weren't even on afro at the time) switching off him and thereby costing us the game.

Blah was killed because potentially he was the guardian. We were guardian hunting from the start. Qreepy was killed for the same reason, and also so that there would be 3 widows instead of 2 (2 if we attacked eb, which was another consideration, or killing me to make kilga/dance wolves). As I even mentioned in the chat, mason pairs were the key. And it just sucks that I even managed to get everyone off of myself and nick and onto Afro and Hans, only to get it fucked with ONE vote from an Insta.

Night 4 was the turning point after TPS was lynched. I wanted to kill myself, but that would leave 3 human lynches again, instead of being down to 2. But, that would be ok. Basically, we knew 4 roles were left unknown: Guardian, 3rd widow, and 3rd mason pair. And the choices were LD, Fish, Talisman, nForcer. We knew Talisman was in the mason pair, and thought LD was the widow. Left nForcer and Fish as the guardian. Looking back, we had 0% shot of getting the 3rd pair killed, as it was Fish/Talisman. I wanted to kill Nick, to again look like guardian hunting, which would pretty much force eb into thinking I was human, making him kill afro/hans and then guido/nforcer for a day 7 or 8 win. That is what I wanted to do. Nick was extremely confident that Fish was the guardian, so I relented, went for the riskier but higher rewarding play, and it didn't pay off.

And yes, Talisman understood exactly my line of questioning to him in regards to nForcer and responded well. eb, my comments with you would have been fairly similar even if I was human.

Well, its late, I've been traveling since 1pm PST and its now 2am EST... I'm going to bed. This game was so stacked against us it wasn't even funny... oh well, I could taste the win for a few hours when Afro was on the block. *sigh*. I really am a shitty wolf, and I'd appreciate it if the hosts would STOP making me a wolf (3/4 games now). Any game where wolfing a wolf is the only option, and where wolfing a SECOND wolf is the best option... NOT a balanced game. I also agree about the inactivity.

eb's best idea was definately asking for logs between mason pairs. That REALLY caught me offguard and some very fast fancy editing had to be done... after that though, we wised up and talked wolfy only on secondary AIM names, and kept our public AIM names solely for human conversations.

PS - Guido... I'm ashamed dude. Seriously.

[blahblah18]

ok several things to comment on

First of all, EB, try not to be retarded when you play this game from now on.. just as a personal help.
AKA, getting mad at people for switching votes at teh last second to save the gaurdian. WTF would you do otherwise, say "oh noes, you chose the guardian choose someone else" .. well that would be jsut retarded, and you FACILITATED that use by saying, "run all lynch choices by me and if its the guardian i'll say not to vote him" That pretty much just gives him away so that's real stupid... try thinking a bit more on the repercussions of your actions from another person's perspective

Now on to more personal things... reasons I was wolfed, as I have gleamed. I was tass's second choice, behind EB.. Guido wanted me. The way I acted to tass was that I was the guardian. I tried very strongly to come off that way, because at the time I didn't know where Tass stood. I wanted him to divulge info to me, and he actualyl did it in my mind by being way too willing to just blindly let me chosoe someone to kill. I went partner fishing with 3 different names, and came up with knowing 3 groups

I was told kilga's group, afro's group and my group.
After Afro's blowup to save hans, I tried to instantly get everyone to switch to tass, but the thread locked before I had the chance to do so. I was fairly suspicious of afro at that point, but then a quick talk with him and his reasonings let me know he was human (even thoguh I must say his reasons for why he did what he did were incredibly foolish, but so be it) I was fairly confident that kilga was human, so that cleared him and his partner, I figured talisman and fish to be human, and thoguht that Tass was a wolf, and his "partner" was mattc. I was close enough for the fact, so it didn't matter too much. It was the #1 most logical reason for him being wolfed, and when I told tass, he said he felt a more logical reason would be to frame that exact situation. And I didn't really put that on anyone, since they wouldn't have thought of the gains of setting it up completely. All this pretty much narrowed down who the wolves could be, and I felt very good going into day 2, until *poof* killed.

Oh well, I'm glad we won, and I have personal pride that I figured a lot of things out.

[Tasselfoot]

congrats to LD, Kilga, and Blah on all getting their 12th win... congrats to Afro on his 6th survival. I'll post up an updated stats thread tomorrow. Been a few months since twg18 and the last time I did.

[talisman]

Originally Posted by tass

eb's best idea was definately asking for logs between mason pairs. That REALLY caught me offguard and some very fast fancy editing had to be done... after that though, we wised up and talked wolfy only on secondary AIM names, and kept our public AIM names solely for human conversations.

my idea, actually. It occurred to me night two when I sent all my convos to eb (I always send my convos to the alliance leader) and I was like "hey, from my convos with fish it's pretty obvious we're human. hmmm." And then I told eb about it in that pm and then brought it up to him again during day two. He was initially skeptical because he didn't see how it could catch wolves until I explained that it would be better not for catching wolves but for proving humans. Then he was convinced and started making the rounds.

edit: oh and eb getting saved DID get us an extra day in theory. not in practice since a wolf was already dead, but if there were still three wolves left, then we wouldn't have had day six, and day six and every single day after that would have been KiB.

Also, I'll agree that the vash convo did get people to switch off and that was a bit of an unlucky break. But pretty much all the reasons you guys lost was bad luck. I don't think it was as stacked as you made it out to be.

[evilbutterfly]

Guido: No, I didn't get that convo. Hans didn't send me anything, did you? *shrug*

And uh, blah, how about you don't be retarded and swing votes at the end of the day? That's pretty a terrible idea, I think. Maybe it's just because I remember killing Chardish that one time and he was human. *shrug*

And yeah, convos helped. I pretty much knew talisman and fish were human the whole time, but still, the fact that people wolves themselves nowadays and that talisman/fish are smart enough to talk human for a long time and maybe realize that I wouldn't read through a lot of the convos (I actually read most of them, just to make sure of this), I didn't trust them 100% until fish got wolfed. But yeah, the only thing that kept the convo thing from being really solid was that I don't save convos, and I don't know what I would talk to my partner a whole lot were I not partnered with, oh I dunno, Afro.

But it's a good thing I don't log, since that convo thing now can't be used against me ever. ^_______^

And Guido, the inactivity on the forums is the bad part. Usually there is plenty of inactivity in a game and it's mostly behind the scenes, but for the people who AREN'T behind the scenes (aka: greens in an alliance-heavy game), that really sucks. I don't know how many times I've been in a situation where everybody else is talking and sharing info and figuring things out and I'm just sitting there on the sidelines wandering what the hell is going on. I hate that. Like I said, if I weren't the center of things and getting and sharing lots of info, I would have hated this game because it would have been dreadfully boring.

[nickadeemus]

eb, Hans posted it in the forum as his 'defense.' If you caught it, it would have pretty much been the end to guido right there.

[nforcer06164]

Hey, LD, I knew you were a guardian after this post:

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...=528080#528080

It was PAINFULLY obvious in that you said you still had a partner when it was higly unlikely that any except Afro's remained, and you referred to eb so heavily. eb can confirm that I knew this if he has a log of our conversation, because I told him I thought LD was the guardian. I hinted at this to Afro too, as a safety net, because why would I tell him who I thought the guardian was if I was a wolf? Well, the wolves did pick up on what LD said. And Afro, you got it backwards. gg.

Speaking of which, you had some really weird strategies, Afro. I showed the log to eb. I'll put it up another time when I can at home. You're odd logic made me rethink the possibility of you being a wolf. I felt really bad after one of those conversations, because I had saved you and Hans from lynching.

So, maybe I was wrong about TPS... but I WAS right about Tass and Guido (I don't recall if I mentioned Guido in the thread, but I did in AIM convos). I hate to think what would've happened if TPS hadn't acted stupid, or if I wouldn't have called him on it... you may not have been a wolf, TPS, but you did help us win =D

Oh, and who gets MVP, mead? Or did we abolish that like the pips?

[Tasselfoot]

MVP is host's call.

[mead1]

I don't think I'm qualified to give an MVP. I haven't seen or heard even an fourth of what went on this game.

[Tasselfoot]

From our side of things, eb is the clear MVP... if eb feels differently, he'd know best. Even though he really didn't do anything more than just what his role forced him to do, without eb, y'all don't win. Plain and simple.