Old 02-16-2014, 02:49 PM   #861
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

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^ This. Blitz is still really strong, and I usually always pick him against thresh honestly (if Im not thresh)

Sure, thresh can hook but blitz can hard engage with a pull
Unfortunately you also cant decide whether you want to commit to whatever hook you land either. Mundo, wukong, amumu, etc are more than happy to allow themselves to get grabbed '.'
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:19 PM   #862
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

Agreed. So it's a risk, but can be really rewarding
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:33 PM   #863
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

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So it's a risk, but can be really rewarding
this pretty much describes any decision on any level made by any player in any league game ever
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:07 PM   #864
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

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this pretty much describes any decision on any level made by any player in any league game ever
Absolutely. It's a risk for that mundo to throw a cleaver. So risky. Or for that karthus to hit q.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:56 PM   #865
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

So in Dota 2 (for those of you who haven't played it yet), there's an item called Aghanim's Scepter which upgrades the ultimates of a fair amount of heroes. Not every hero's ultimate is upgraded by it however; one example is Tidehunter's fuck your team ultimate that takes up the whole screen and stuns for a few seconds. Scepter has a variety of effects, from cooldown reduction (or removal for Pugna), to additional effects like Necrophos' ult that prevents buyback when he has a Scepter, to just straight up increased damage for people like Lina and Lion with their click and die ults.

I wanted to see what some of your ideas are for what this item could do in League. Maybe Caitlyn's ult will penetrate through a second target, causing full damage to the first target and half to the second? Brand's ultimate gaining extra bounces? Be creative!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:03 PM   #866
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

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Absolutely. It's a risk for that mundo to throw a cleaver. So risky. Or for that karthus to hit q.
if you throw the cleaver and don't hit are you open to an unfavorable trade? are you throwing a cleaver at a target that doesn't know you have vision of them, therefore giving away the fact that you have a ward in x bush? will throwing the cleaver and missing leave you with a value of hp within kill range of your opponent? are you throwing the cleaver at the most effective target to slow? if you're sitting in base just randomly chucking cleavers is your lack of map presence going to adversely affect your team's map pressure?

i mean i could go on but the point is just because you don't understand risk assessment and resource management doesn't mean it doesn't exist so before being a sarcastic douchebag you might want to rewind and make sure you aren't being an incorrect sarcastic douchebag
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:41 PM   #867
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

so I'm new to this game guys




p.s. I'm on both EUW and NA but after a certain event goes through I'll go back on NA.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:57 PM   #868
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

people used to think I was trolling with annie support in s1 s2 NOWS WHO IS LAUGHING WORLD! MUAHAHAHA
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:22 PM   #869
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

So Jesse and I are boosting this kid up to gold. Here is is talking to us in skype...


Enjoy...




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Old 02-17-2014, 12:41 AM   #870
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

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if you throw the cleaver and don't hit are you open to an unfavorable trade? are you throwing a cleaver at a target that doesn't know you have vision of them, therefore giving away the fact that you have a ward in x bush? will throwing the cleaver and missing leave you with a value of hp within kill range of your opponent? are you throwing the cleaver at the most effective target to slow? if you're sitting in base just randomly chucking cleavers is your lack of map presence going to adversely affect your team's map pressure?

i mean i could go on but the point is just because you don't understand risk assessment and resource management doesn't mean it doesn't exist so before being a sarcastic douchebag you might want to rewind and make sure you aren't being an incorrect sarcastic douchebag
I feel you might not actually understand what you're talking about. At a certain point, something is no longer a risk. I used cleavers as an easy example. You gain so much more by using it than you could possibly lose, so it isn't a risk at all. You throw that cleaver and bam, you have zone control. They suddenly understand that you are a threat. You possibly did 25% of someone's hp at literally no cost to you. Maybe they had to dodge it, there goes some of their cs. Unless you're retarded enough to be standing directly on top of them without a good reason, they can't retaliate. That cleaver range is massive. Even if you mistime it and throw at just a horrible time, it's up again in what, 4s? Less with cdr? you aren't going to die because you missed that cleaver. It doesn't matter if you lost the trade, you heal it up in a second or two passively. If someone was ganking you, you likely didn't die because you decided to throw a cleaver, you died because of some other idiotic decision or poor assessment of other risks.

So if you're going to act like a superior asshat that feels entitled to being a sarcastic dick to someone, then getting mad when it happens to you, maybe try thinking a little beyond that kneejerk douche reaction. Oh, and in case you really care that much about the specific scenarios listed:

Unfavorable trade, taken care of by passive. Won't lose out on cs if you remember what that button you hit 4 seconds ago was and use it to last hit. Congrats, you can Mundo.

Doesn't know you have vision of them? Do you need vision to throw cleavers in bushes? Maybe understand that 90% of people are smart enough to cleavecheck a bush. most people will write it off unless you add something else to that cleaver. Maybe you clicked them and the little yellow outline showed up, nothing to do with your cleaver. To top it off, they make that wonderful squish sound and stop their animation when they hit, there's an excuse for more cleavers. Even if you miss, people likely won't stay in a bush that just got cleaved, and if they do you'll likely stay away -- assuming they're enough of a threat to ignore your cleavers -- giving away that you have vision in a completely different way. Nothing to do with that cleaver.

Throwing a cleaver to leave you in kill range. That right there is the only real threat. But at that point you are in one of two scenarios. Either you guys have been having a poke war, at which point you just back off for all of two seconds to heal it before they can go in, or you're in the middle of a fight. If you're in the middle of a fight the risk isn't throwing the cleaver itself. The risk is you missing the cleaver. That isn't part of the decision to throw the cleaver, that's part of your mechanical skill and the ability of your opponent to read you. If you're going to get outplayed no amount of deciding not to cleave will save you, so the risk is a nonissue.

Throwing the cleaver at the most effective target. It isn't always an option, and the optimal target changes so situationally that it's really impossible to plan for the exact one every time. That being said, ANY target is infinitely better than no target. Again, the risk is comparitively nothing. Even if you hit someone who makes no sense, it's better than sitting there doing literally nothing with your low cooldown high damage spammable ability. Skill as a player is far more of an issue here than the risk of using said cleaver.

If you're sitting at the base chucking a cleaver, it again has nothing to do with the risk of throwing the cleaver. That's the risk of you being inactive in a situation that potentially requires activity. You're masking one risk with another completely to try to make your point.

I mean I could go on, if you really want to go on with yours. Or maybe you should rewind before being an incorrect smug asswipe.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:09 AM   #871
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

man you just went full retard

never go full retard

i mean if you're arguing against the statement "any investment of resources comes with an inherent risk" then your position is by definition "there are situations in which investments of resources come with no risk"

and then you proceed to list off the following examples:

"Unfavorable trade, taken care of by passive. Won't lose out on cs if you remember what that button you hit 4 seconds ago was and use it to last hit. Congrats, you can Mundo."

your argument is that mundo's passive means you can take unfavorable trades in top lane and still cs with cleaver. news flash dicktard, your cs isn't what matters in this game. it's your differential cs. being forced to play defensively and rely on your passive for sustain precludes you from playing aggressively. just because you farm every creep in your lane doesn't mean fuckall if you played against a jax and gave him a free lane because at level 3 you missed a cleaver trying to harass because you think there's "no risk" involved and got severely punished by a return trade/jungle pressure

"Doesn't know you have vision of them? Do you need vision to throw cleavers in bushes? Maybe understand that 90% of people are smart enough to cleavecheck a bush. most people will write it off unless you add something else to that cleaver. Maybe you clicked them and the little yellow outline showed up, nothing to do with your cleaver. To top it off, they make that wonderful squish sound and stop their animation when they hit, there's an excuse for more cleavers. Even if you miss, people likely won't stay in a bush that just got cleaved, and if they do you'll likely stay away -- assuming they're enough of a threat to ignore your cleavers -- giving away that you have vision in a completely different way. Nothing to do with that cleaver."

wow congrats the inferred benefit of a successful countergank flew completely over your head so let me make the point very clear. You threw a cleaver when two of your teammates are waiting to counter gank. Enemy jungler/mid walks away. You lose 2 kills. Now your team thinks you're a fucking idiot. You are a fucking idiot.

"Throwing a cleaver to leave you in kill range. That right there is the only real threat. But at that point you are in one of two scenarios. Either you guys have been having a poke war, at which point you just back off for all of two seconds to heal it before they can go in, or you're in the middle of a fight. If you're in the middle of a fight the risk isn't throwing the cleaver itself. The risk is you missing the cleaver. That isn't part of the decision to throw the cleaver, that's part of your mechanical skill and the ability of your opponent to read you. If you're going to get outplayed no amount of deciding not to cleave will save you, so the risk is a nonissue."

yes i heard league of legends is a 1v1 game what does getting baited into throwing a cleaver that could have been used instead to defensively stall ganks mean


"Throwing the cleaver at the most effective target. It isn't always an option, and the optimal target changes so situationally that it's really impossible to plan for the exact one every time. That being said, ANY target is infinitely better than no target. Again, the risk is comparitively nothing. Even if you hit someone who makes no sense, it's better than sitting there doing literally nothing with your low cooldown high damage spammable ability. Skill as a player is far more of an issue here than the risk of using said cleaver."

so by this logic there is no risk associated with spamming skillshots at random targets during team fights. remember your argument is that i'm wrong and my argument is that there is always risk. so by your logic beyond a certain threshold of "high damage and low cooldown" there is no risk to tossing every cleaver at a full hp renekton instead of a 5% adc who is wiping your team

"If you're sitting at the base chucking a cleaver, it again has nothing to do with the risk of throwing the cleaver. That's the risk of you being inactive in a situation that potentially requires activity. You're masking one risk with another completely to try to make your point."

yes but you wouldn't be in your base inactive if you didn't decide you needed to throw a cleaver in base facepalm

like, nice fucking 1v1 bronze mode logic bro keep posting and i'll keep reaming your ass
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:12 AM   #872
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:12 AM   #873
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

Both of you have a few valid points and are overreacting. only game, y heff to be mad
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:12 AM   #874
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i mean before you post anything let me just say you already countered your own argument with your own examples you just don't realize it because you're that fucking stupid

qed
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:14 AM   #875
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

actually mina is totally right

yes, there are a couple of cases that are totally irrelevant/trivial, such as throwing cleavers from base. but let's suppose for a minute that you're not braindead and we're trying to make a point

1. what I don't understand is why mina's examples (and many of them, not just one) don't get through to you. these are basic concepts that every decent player inherently knows, and by definition most of these situations carry risks

2. yeah mina called you a name or two. we talk like this on the internet sometimes, deal with it. his delivery doesn't invalidate his argument, and instead of thinking critically about what he said, you kinda just brushed him off because he called you a bad word. and you were being a douche too

3. and on top of that, mina's a pretty skilled player in many respects, having played quite a few games with him in the past. just from reading this I am willing to bet 100 bucks that mina is not only ranked higher, but he'd crush him in any kind of [fair] competition. not saying that the guy with more skill has authority in debates, but you would much rather listen to someone who can demonstrate their claims better


here's another example to really get this point across:
you're playing blitzcrank, and you're about to catch the enemy carry off-guard with a grab. if your grab succeeds, you nuke the carry and your team wins the fight. however, you also know that the enemy alistar/amumu/whatever is nearby, and if you grab him, they get a free engage and your team loses the fight. do you grab or not?

you can't deny there is no risk, because if the tank just happens to intercept the grab, your team is fucked. it's possible you can miss and a fight doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean you can't totally screw over your team with that decision


you should probably go read up on some game theory. here's one of the most famous mathematical games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
you might think that it's obvious what strategy you'll pick, but there's always the chance the other person will screw you over with that same strategy. when the game and payoffs are not so clearly defined and evident in a continuous environment, of course there's going to be a lot of these hidden risks you don't realize you're taking


now get off your high horse and realize you're wrong
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:57 AM   #876
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

all of you are bad, im challenger in euw

maybe
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:05 AM   #877
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i mean if you're arguing against the statement "any investment of resources comes with an inherent risk" then your position is by definition "there are situations in which investments of resources come with no risk"

your argument is that mundo's passive means you can take unfavorable trades in top lane and still cs with cleaver. news flash dicktard, your cs isn't what matters in this game. it's your differential cs. being forced to play defensively and rely on your passive for sustain precludes you from playing aggressively. just because you farm every creep in your lane doesn't mean fuckall if you played against a jax and gave him a free lane because at level 3 you missed a cleaver trying to harass because you think there's "no risk" involved and got severely punished by a return trade/jungle pressure

wow congrats the inferred benefit of a successful countergank flew completely over your head so let me make the point very clear. You threw a cleaver when two of your teammates are waiting to counter gank. Enemy jungler/mid walks away. You lose 2 kills. Now your team thinks you're a fucking idiot. You are a fucking idiot.

yes i heard league of legends is a 1v1 game what does getting baited into throwing a cleaver that could have been used instead to defensively stall ganks mean

so by this logic there is no risk associated with spamming skillshots at random targets during team fights. remember your argument is that i'm wrong and my argument is that there is always risk. so by your logic beyond a certain threshold of "high damage and low cooldown" there is no risk to tossing every cleaver at a full hp renekton instead of a 5% adc who is wiping your team

yes but you wouldn't be in your base inactive if you didn't decide you needed to throw a cleaver in base facepalm
The thing is, you heal it up again pretty shortly thereafter. You no longer have to play defensively after you get that one or two cs between from that unfavorable trade. Then you can go back to cleaving all day. That was the point. Good job reading between the lines.

Generally in an uncoordinated soloqueue game, which is most of the matches that take place in leagues, btw, people don't rely on their team to countergank, and for good reason. I would rather cleave someone and scare them off than try to bait for a teammate who isn't going to be there a majority of the time. Just because you play in a higher league than most doesn't mean other people don't exist. So while in your division it may be a risk, in gold and lower the risk is more the opposite. The only thing you could hope to gain off of not doing it is to waste their time, and then they again learn you have vision in most of those situations for an unrelated reason. If someone on our team takes advantage of the situation before then, fantastic, if not then great, you mitigated the risk to you by a far more substantial amount.

As far as it being a 1v1, who said that? You do realize getting ganked is a fight, right? You'd be at a far greater risk not throwing that cleaver to slow than you would just walking away. So good job again not understanding what was said.

There is a risk, but would you not agree that's it's riskier to do literally nothing than it is to cleave? Maybe you were peeling that Renekton from your carry on your way to dive theirs. Even if that isn't the case, what if targetting their carry is unfeasible? Those situations arise, you know. Would you again rather your Mundo sat there doing nothing? You claim to take into account other variables, and then don't when it's convenient for you.

Think of the situations you'd be standing in base. Waiting to heal: the health cost is not enough to counter the healing of the platform. Waiting for gold: you've already made the decision to wait, what does cleaving do to make that riskier? Your base is getting roflraped: either you know you can't 1v5 and are just screwing around at that point, or you've already made the decision to lose, at which point you have nothing more to lose by cleaving.

Again, feel free to add more. I can come up with a valid argument for each scenario just as you can come up with a reasonable scenario where it would be inappropriate. At the end of the day you're arguing that literally everything in life is a risk, which is true enough if you scale everything to the macro. Let me approach this in a different way though. Assume you have an impossibly small number. like 1* 10^-30 million. At that point, is it worth calling that number it's specific number? No. For all intents and purposes it might as well be zero. The world won't fall apart if you assume it is.

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actually mina is totally right

yes, there are a couple of cases that are totally irrelevant/trivial, such as throwing cleavers from base. but let's suppose for a minute that you're not braindead and we're trying to make a point

1. what I don't understand is why mina's examples (and many of them, not just one) don't get through to you. these are basic concepts that every decent player inherently knows, and by definition most of these situations carry risks

2. yeah mina called you a name or two. we talk like this on the internet sometimes, deal with it. his delivery doesn't invalidate his argument, and instead of thinking critically about what he said, you kinda just brushed him off because he called you a bad word. and you were being a douche too

3. and on top of that, mina's a pretty skilled player in many respects, having played quite a few games with him in the past. just from reading this I am willing to bet 100 bucks that mina is not only ranked higher, but he'd crush him in any kind of [fair] competition. not saying that the guy with more skill has authority in debates, but you would much rather listen to someone who can demonstrate their claims better


here's another example to really get this point across:
you're playing blitzcrank, and you're about to catch the enemy carry off-guard with a grab. if your grab succeeds, you nuke the carry and your team wins the fight. however, you also know that the enemy alistar/amumu/whatever is nearby, and if you grab him, they get a free engage and your team loses the fight. do you grab or not?

you can't deny there is no risk, because if the tank just happens to intercept the grab, your team is fucked. it's possible you can miss and a fight doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean you can't totally screw over your team with that decision


you should probably go read up on some game theory. here's one of the most famous mathematical games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
you might think that it's obvious what strategy you'll pick, but there's always the chance the other person will screw you over with that same strategy. when the game and payoffs are not so clearly defined and evident in a continuous environment, of course there's going to be a lot of these hidden risks you don't realize you're taking
The point isn't that I don't understand that these things are risks, the point is that the risks being argued are so minimal it would generally be bad form to take the alternative, far riskier option. You link me to the basic prisoners dilemma, and we know what the more common occurrence is there. They both rat each other out, because they aren't coordinated. And therein in lies the rub of this discussion. Are you in ranked teams, or in ranked soloqueue, or even in ranked at all? That changes the question entirely. In ranked teams, suddenly every action you make is important, and it's optimal to coordinate with and understand your team well enough to plan risks accordingly. In soloqueue however, you aren't going to be that coordinated. It just doesn't happen. The risk is suddenly lower, because while you might make a somewhat poor call the enemy team can't jump on it as effectively. In unranked it's even less of an issue. So few people are playing optimally that there really isn't a risk at all, at that point.

I'm aware I was being sarcastic and douchey, but I'm not sure why I should have to roll over and take it when he can't handle a miniscule comment in the same flavor of his initial response to someone else. Pretty simple.

Generally theorycrafting involves a low impact from your skill in a game. do you know how many millions of players understand the point of something like warding, but don't do it in game? The point of that statement is to show that while yes, he's probably more skilled than I am, and yes, he could probably take a shit on my day, that has no place in the discussion. His skill lends to him being able to understand the situation in his mmr better, but not the 98% of the playerbase he doesn't play in. He is part of an outlier group of skilled players. They play very differently because they are able to do things like rely on each other to act, and assume their opponent is skilled. I've been from a low point of 800 elo back in s1 to now regularly playing with low to mid plats on a similar skill level. I've seen the breakpoint at which you can trust your teammates to do anything, and really the game is completely different in each division. The basics are the same, but assessment of the situation is entirely different.

As far as the blitz grab is concerned, I didn't list it for a reason. It's a high risk, high reward ability.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:20 PM   #878
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Test: Throw a cleaver EVERY TIME it is off cooldown no exceptions because obviously your passive will heal it up.

See how high your health is! Try playing in lane as if there is no risk! Nothing could go wrong, because Mundo passive no risk!
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:21 PM   #879
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

^ This made me giggle
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:28 PM   #880
speeddemon
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Default Re: League of Legends [v2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
Test: Throw a cleaver EVERY TIME it is off cooldown no exceptions because obviously your passive will heal it up.

See how high your health is! Try playing in lane as if there is no risk! Nothing could go wrong, because Mundo passive no risk!
Go for it. Of course you'd only do it at a reasonable time if you had a brain. Like after your have SV.

And of course as long as you can aim you actually lose no health at all. So good job there.
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