Should FFR have D8?

[One Winged Angel]

Players need to take into account diminishing marginal returns in skill gains over a period of time as players reach higher levels. Despite the aim to represent divisions through approximately equal numerical difficulty ranges, the time investment required to gain another difficulty point in 'comfort' continues to grow as difficulty increases despite trying to keep the value of +1 difficulty approximately equal across the spectrum (or for the time being, at least in the upper half).

Even though D5 represents a larger numerical range of difficulties than D6, it's fine imo as the amount of time that a player on average will need to invest to become comfortable (starting at the lowest point in that range and working towards the highest) is less than what on average is required to do so for D6.

FFR's range for D7 (prior to the 11th tourney files) was 87+. Taking into account diminishing returns in skill gains + knowing that many players are going to plateau around here regardless of how much more time they invest, in addition to the fact that numerous players have 95/96 AAAs now (with players like Etienne probably capable of snagging 97/98s and only haven't done so yet due to a single file existing in this range on FFR...)

It's kinda obvious that D8 should be officially recognized if divisions are to stay

[SpaceGorilla]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

Players need to take into account diminishing marginal returns in skill gains over a period of time as players reach higher levels.

I'm trying to keep my personal opinions out of this thread (I did vote in the poll) but I can confirm that this is indeed very true. Recently I've been struggling with a lot of rust that I'm having a huge difficulty trying to fend off. I feel it's going to take some time to regain my "D7" skill simply because of how easy it just seemed to "vanish".

[RenegadeLucien]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

and only haven't done so yet due to a single file existing in this range on FFR...)

Here lies another problem. There might be another 10 people capable of reaching this theoretical D8, but they can't because (as Mina has said time and time again on his stream) getting to the top of the leaderboard in FFR basically requires you to be good on 10 specific songs, and if you're not, you're out of luck.

So we need more 95+ songs to accurately gauge the skill of the potential D8 players. (Enter High FGO batch to the rescue?)

[One Winged Angel]

Even without having more songs in that range and observing scores on current files, it's evident D8 should probably be officially recognized. Though obviously I'd more than welcome more 95+ files. All the top players on the leaderboards have the same files in their top 15 because there's only like 20 92+s, and if you're shit at the very few 95/96s we have atm then you're pretty much fucked in terms of getting a top 5 or top 10 rank.

Unfortunately the HSB produced less files in this range than I was hoping for since a lot of simfilers were testing vibrating in their files.

[RenegadeLucien]

Where would you even put the cutoff then?

95 and 94 (and possibly even 93) make for too small of a D8, and 92 and below (might? correct me if i'm wrong here) chop D7 to too small of a skill range.

[One Winged Angel]

I don't see having only 5ish players in the division at this time as being a major problem.

93 is too low of a starting point if you're looking at a level of AAA equivalency recognized on the leaderboards. Probably 94 atm, and 95 after there are more 95+ files to provide players a greater opportunity to reach that point instead of forcing them to optimize almost everything in that range.

[RenegadeLucien]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

I don't see having only 5ish players in the division at this time as being a major problem.

I don't know, I just feel really weird. Having a division of 5 people doesn't feel like a division to me, it's just Mega Rayquaza-ing the top players in the game. How would we even accommodate D8? You can't make an 8 round elimination tournament out of 5 people.

[lurker]

divisions suck

[One Winged Angel]

I mean the best solution is still removing divisions altogether but I feel it's pretty obvious the community as a whole wouldn't embrace that idea

[j-rodd123]

yea I def don't agree with removing divisons. I mean I don't agree with constantly increasing the number of divisions to keep spreading out the best of the best, but no divisions seems pretty dumb

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by RenegadeLucien

I don't know, I just feel really weird. Having a division of 5 people doesn't feel like a division to me, it's just Mega Rayquaza-ing the top players in the game. How would we even accommodate D8? You can't make an 8 round elimination tournament out of 5 people.

first d7 tournament was cumulative iirc
no eliminations

[VisD]

remove divisions & watch official tournaments (the only periods when the site actually becomes interesting to follow) die v miserably

It's bad enough that d1 is the smallest division. Let's at least try to keep them engaged, or this place will turn into an (even bigger) d5+-only-circlejerk


As for D8, doesn't really matter to me although I would like to see it if only because it'd be interesting (and give more top-end players motivation to actually play properly rather than waiting to get run over by gigantic 18-wheel foregone conclusions). I don't see a small number of players there as a bad thing - it becomes another thing for d7 players to work towards if they want, as well as allowing the premier division to carry a level of exclusivity befitting of premiership.

These are not huge benefits but I don't see any actual drawbacks, other than the fact that some of the bottom of d8 will now finish out of the $credit$. Which lol

eta: also, a 9-person 8-round d8 would be cool to watch.

[hi19hi19]

VisD basically said everything I was going to say.

Removing divisions is a terrible idea, at least with the current way officials are run (with week-long rounds etc.) and whether or not D8 exists "officially recognized" is honestly far less of a big deal than it's being made out to be. Especially because everyone playing at the high D7 level more or less knows how they stack up in terms of various skills against everyone else at that level already.

[TC_Halogen]

and then once the skill curve expands again: "should there be a D(x)?"

not to mention there are other divisions with very large skill gaps as well that could easily be separated (D2 is/has been a nasty one in the past, and the boundary of D4/D5 and D5/D6 has always been argued).

official tournaments would need to have structural considerations if divisionless -- the ideal scenario for making a gauntlet (knock-out) style tournament work in a single division is rather boring earlier on for upper level players, but gives the opportunity to make organization a lot easier and is at least open to lower-level players

hmmm... I may run a user tournament with this concept to see how it works, just as a tester.

EDIT: worth saying/reiterating that i'm personally against the idea of divisions - it gives the opportunity for players of lower skills to get recognition over players who are stronger simply because they managed to get the lucky end of the arbitrary divisional cutoffs. there's a number of ways to better handle things, in my opinion.

[HeZe]

D8 should be just D7 files with rates. There wouldn't be enough D8 players to justify all the effort of adding unique songs

[Dynam0]

I know removing divisions might seem like you're taking the carrot away from the horse but players should find a new motivator from a one division setting. Why not shoot for Top 100, Top 50, etc? It's a much more authentic goal imo

Why care about credit earnings or 1st place medals for an arbitrary skill cut-off you happened to be sitting on?

*sigh*

[Charu]

Meh, I still don't think there needs to be a D8 imo. But... eh... idk, I'm not the best judge in the world for this crud.

And here I thought joking about another division was all that was gonna happen, dohoho.

[Walrusizer]

The difference between low d7 and the best players in the game is far larger than the difference between d1 and low d7

[Dinglesberry]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

I know removing divisions might seem like you're taking the carrot away from the horse but players should find a new motivator from a one division setting. Why not shoot for Top 100, Top 50, etc? It's a much more authentic goal imo

Why care about credit earnings or 1st place medals for an arbitrary skill cut-off you happened to be sitting on?

*sigh*

I always felt like divisions are a relative thing of sorts.. D7 is really only as good as it is because it's so much better relative to D6..

My argument is, how would D8 even occur.. Would songs continue getting harder? What actually constitutes making a song harder? I suppose perhaps the factor is speed - Lets say you took a song like powerflux, and did it 1.1x rate.. does this become a D8 song?

That begs the question, is speed the factor that determines how good you are? I'd argue is there is a limit on how many patterns and such are even possible, since its 4 key..

I think harder songs are going to have stuff like literal jump-stream, as in streams that are composed of jumps instead of single notes, or maybe uber jumpstream where the notes that would normally be jumps are hands and the single notes are jumps? I dunno

[Fantasticone]

Yes, there is too great of a difference between the low and very high end D7