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Old 09-26-2018, 12:34 PM   #161
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by rayword45 View Post
2. You had to use JONTRON as an example? The shot he said was actively racist, of course he fucking got fired!
you had to pick one of my weakest, anecdotal, un-sourced (from the top of my head) and un-expounded on examples to strawman (and so shittily too?)

and in response to your first point, i'll find you something. I can't immediately find any "student groups" being shut down specifically by campus administration. But its hard to run political club based in discourse if your meetings get loudly crashed and staff/security turns a blind eye to the masked punks responsible, or the people you invite to speak have to cancel because of riots and unsafe conditions started by angry opposition wishing not only to silence the other side, but to make sure the other side cannot even convene or hold events in their presence. I'd say if these groups exist, they probably exist somewhere private and outside the scope of campus regulation, because of the aforementioned fear of violent backlash. You probably won't hear of them being shut down by schools by virtue of them having to had move these types of speaking events off campus due to fear in the first place.

edit https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10030

At Columbia university, there were calls to defund and derecognize the Campus Republicans as a legitimate organisation and that their funding is redistributed to student groups "who are targets of this hateful ideology". I think that maybe counts as attempts to ban these groups from campus
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Old 09-26-2018, 12:57 PM   #162
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC



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Old 09-26-2018, 01:05 PM   #163
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

If there is a large amount of complaints about Edward Said, that I could understand a little bit, but I am pretty convinced that if people are complaining about Mark Twain, that they are just looking for something to complain about. Complaining about Said is pretty level one for level two, if that makes sense.

I feel for this educator. That was pretty bullshit.
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Old 09-26-2018, 01:07 PM   #164
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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If there is a large amount of complaints about Edward Said, that I could understand a little bit, but I am pretty convinced that if people are complaining about Mark Twain, that they are just looking for something to complain about. Complaining about Said is pretty level one for level two, if that makes sense.

I feel for this educator. That was pretty bullshit.
I don't know what "level one for level two" means. Never heard that phrase before! Hi sunfan!
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Old 09-26-2018, 01:15 PM   #165
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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I don't know what "level one for level two" means. Never heard that phrase before! Hi sunfan!
It's very basic while trying to not be basic, in short.

Again, I am generalizing here, but regardless of your beliefs on orientalism, you can still get something out of what he said. Unless you are someone who knows a hell of a lot about Orientalism or its counterpart, Oxidentalism (no fucking idea how to spell that), I feel like the opinion of "I find Said's material to be seriously offensive enough to launch a campaign to get the teacher who taught it fired" is very shortsighted.
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:25 PM   #166
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by melonpapes View Post
sorry i don't have a nationwide statistic sheet to get the empirical data on campus political opinions. i'm sure we could smack down a lot of the claims in this thread with a cute lil request for more data.
However, theres information suggesting at least in the way of educators and professors, conservative professors are outnumbered 12:1.
There's no need for your shitty attitude. If we could smack down more claims in this thread with data then we should start doing exactly that. Let's start with self-selection bias that Aquellex mentioned and see how much of the gap it explains.

Gross and Fosse specialize in research in political discrepancies in political science and are heavily cited. They have attempted to quantify the self-selection gap (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gross, N., & Fosse, E. (2012). Why are professors liberal? Theory and Society, 41(2), 127-168. Retrieved from [url
http://www.jstor.org/stable/41349128][/url]
We test these hypotheses using a variant of the Oaxaca-Blinder regression decomposition procedure, an econometric technique typically used to examine wage disparities, on data from the General Social Survey (GSS) pooled over the years 1974-2008. During this period 326 GSS respondents with non-missing values on our outcome variable were employed as professors or instructors in higher education, and we examine how much of the gap between their politics and those of other Americans can be accounted for with variables associated with each of the hypotheses. We find that these variables together account for about 43 percent of the gap, and that the most important factors are advanced education, the disparity between professors’ educational levels and their incomes, the fact that a higher proportion of professors than non-professors have no religious affiliation or are Jews or non-theologically conservative Protestants, and intellectualism operationalized as tolerance for controversial ideas (not of a liberal nature).
So self-selecting reinforcement explains about 40% of the variance in terms of the 12:1 discrepancy you've provided. These self-selecting traits help us determine what in particular makes professors liberal instead of conservative, namely:

- Education (and it would be an open question whether this is due to conservative anti-intellectualism or other causes).
- Wage Level (most professors, especially those in the social sciences, don't make much money)
- Religious affiliation (conservatives aggregate heavily as protestants and this group is mostly separate from professors)
- Tolerance for controversial ideas

The authors find that professors have a higher tolerance for controversial ideas not a lower tolerance. Here is their methodology for testing tolerance to controversial ideas which demonstrates that it also controls for left-leaning controversial ideas:

Quote:
We also consider the willingness of respondents to tolerate the expression of controversial ideas. To do so, we created a summated, standardized scale of six items: answering “yes” or “no” to the questions of whether racists and militarists should be allowed to speak, teach, or have a book in a library. We chose these items over others from the Stouffer tolerance scale, such as those pertaining to “communists” or “homosexuals,” since the latter may capture aspects of liberal ideology rather than tolerance for controversial ideas per se. Although consisting of only a few items, the scale exhibits a high level of internal consistency with a Cronbach’s alpha of 0.8215, above the standard benchmark of 0.700 (Nunnally 1978)

So now to respond to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by melonpapes
Do you think many students feel safe "ruffling feathers" with those in authority with opposing viewpoints? I think most likely they will stifle their true feelings and opinions during class discussions for the sake of their education and maybe even safety and to save them from the embarrassment of being the "odd one out" in lecture hall.
This would appear to be completely unsubstantiated based on the above research. Since you've mostly been arguing by anecdote, I'll add my own experience that I was repeatedly challenged to defend my positions. While it was often uncomfortable, I grew as a person for it. Probably the most heated disagreement I had was between me and classmates with a fantastically neutral professor where I was taking the minority stance that violence was sometimes acceptable to create cultural change.

And finally, that leaves us with this (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by melonpapes
So, at least one professor has had to alter the way he exposes students to "difficult" ideas and having them rationalize their feelings on these texts and ideas themselves, for the fear that he might lose tenure or otherwise come upon negative consequence. Something tells me a lot of these ideas that are being described as "difficult" probably come from a right leaning camp.
You now have a hypothesis to test that these "difficult" ideas come from a right leaning camp, time to dig up research. While a Vox article that has a sample size of n=1 may provide an interesting case study, it doesn't really provide much insight because we care about the statistical aggregate rather than the individual. You don't get to determine whether a coin is balanced by flipping it once!

Quote:
Originally Posted by melonpapes
though its not hard to look at any of the large "campus activism" movements that have sprung up in the past 8-10 years and imagine why it might be hard, scary, or risky to express these viewpoints when there are swaths of people on the other side who show no qualms in doxxing you or causing trouble with your employer or school ethics board over your opinions.
Or, you know, Milo Yiannopoulos outing a transgender student at a speech at a college campus. What you're doing here by assuming a priori which side does X more often and then deriving implications from it without testing them is called "confirmation bias", and it's not really worth engaging over as long as you try to make arguments by peddling anecdotes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by melonpapes
maybe we should stop treating students like customers that pay 10s of thousands of dollars per year for the right to not be offended. maybe we should fix the system where teachers are afraid to teach effectively because of fear of losing their jobs in a "brutal" job market where they can be replaced with someone who won't cause trouble hurting the feelings of the schools cash cows? but thats another thread i guess.. lol
This actually seems pretty central to rectifying the imbalance in self-selection in professorship. From the outlined explanatory variables above, clearly poor wages are one of the main factors that push professors further left. Does an increased student loan burden also make students feel more entitled to get whatever they want out of a college education? This is also a very interesting question, and it would be a good followup to pursue based on the anecdotal cases provided in your Vox article.

An interesting aside, these self-selection behaviors can create a feedback loop based on ingroup/outgroup dynamics that does result in professorship calcifying into a liberal-biased group. See http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.882.1681&rep=rep1&type=pdf. This would make it even more important to address these self-selection factors if you're looking to neutralize political bias.
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:44 PM   #167
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

can you post that again but pretend im 5
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:49 PM   #168
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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According to this study "conservative students are the most likely to fear that their political views could be criticized as “offensive,” and they are most likely to fear retaliation from professors in the form of lower grades."
Here's the only actual study you've posted. Here's what I'll challenge you to address on it: I argue that conservatives have more fear of negative consequences for speaking their beliefs because they have a higher baseline level of fear and anxiety, and I hypothesize that this would explain a significant amount of the variance given in the above article.

See the abstract (and full read if you're interested):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jost, J. T., Glaser, J., Kruglanski, A. W., & Sulloway, F. J. (2003). Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition. Psychological Bulletin, 129(3), 339-375. DOI: 10.1037/0033-2909.129.3.339
Analyzing political conservatism as motivated social cognition integrates theories of personality (authoritarianism, dogmatism–intolerance of ambiguity), epistemic and existential needs (for closure, regulatory focus, terror management), and ideological rationalization (social dominance, system justification). A meta-analysis (88 samples, 12 countries, 22,818 cases) confirms that several psychological variables predict political conservatism: death anxiety (weighted mean r .50); system instability (.47); dogmatism–intolerance of ambiguity (.34); openness to experience (–.32); uncertainty tolerance (–.27); needs for order, structure, and closure (.26); integrative complexity (–.20); fear of threat and loss (.18); and self-esteem (–.09). The core ideology of conservatism stresses resistance to change and justification of inequality and is motivated by needs that vary situationally and dispositionally to manage uncertainty and threat
(retrieved from: https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...vated_Soci.pdf)

I hesitate to draw too many conclusions from your study due to the fact that it's a self-reporting survey that is strongly biased toward caucasian respondents and it does not attempt to provide controls for baseline self-selecting differences between liberals and conservatives like the one I provided above. It's obvious that a group with a higher baseline level of fear will score higher when asked to address their fear, so a good study should control for this.
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:51 PM   #169
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by melonpapes View Post
can you post that again but pretend im 5
> laments that no one responds to his effortposts
> complains that the response is too complex when someone responds to his effortposts
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:53 PM   #170
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

sorry but sources using "hypotheses using a variant of the Oaxaca-Blinder regression decomposition procedure" is a bit more effort than my potsmoking child brain can handle oops
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:57 PM   #171
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

TIL you can measure and quantify baseline levels of fear

is it anything like a lie detector test? :thinking:
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:57 PM   #172
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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sorry but sources using "hypotheses using a variant of the Oaxaca-Blinder regression decomposition procedure" is a bit more effort than my potsmoking child brain can handle oops
You should focus more on being skeptical of drawing conclusions in either direction then if you aren't capable of parsing relevant literature. You can end up believing whatever you want if your deductive method is Have Belief -> Find Supporting Anecdote.

One of the best actual valuable things I got out of college was understanding research methods and how to parse the effect size, uncertainty, and possible confounds of different experimental designs.
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:03 PM   #173
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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You should focus more on being skeptical of drawing conclusions in either direction then if you aren't capable of parsing relevant literature. You can end up believing whatever you want if your deductive method is Have Belief -> Find Supporting Anecdote.

One of the best actual valuable things I got out of college was understanding research methods and how to parse the effect size, uncertainty, and possible confounds of different experimental designs.
well no i mean i saw that the one study was mostly white dudes when I checked it out. the sample size isn't the best either. however, they provided the survey to be used at other campuses and i'd be interested in seeing if it was conducted with a bit more control and a larger sample
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:10 PM   #174
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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well no i mean i saw that the one study was mostly white dudes when I checked it out. the sample size isn't the best either. however, they provided the survey to be used at other campuses and i'd be interested in seeing if it was conducted with a bit more control and a larger sample
It certainly would but I'm talking more about your habit of making unsubstantiated conclusions that can't be drawn from whatever data set you're using. Such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by melonpapes
Something tells me a lot of these ideas that are being described as "difficult" probably come from a right leaning camp.
Claims like this have three outcomes:

1. They're true
2. They're false
3. There's not enough information to determine their veracity either way

The safe option is 3 when there's a lack of compelling information. You seem quite keen to believe whatever evidence justifies your beliefs and discard whatever evidence doesn't justify your beliefs. Yet at the same time you readily admit you don't have the statistical skillset to analyze uncertainty in a study, and you make the novice mistake of arguing from anecdote repeatedly. All this does is nurture confirmation bias.

What you need is less 1 and 2 and more 3.
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:25 PM   #175
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

i don't see how my arguing and referencing anecdotes from relevant authorities in academia in this thread is any worse or any more problematic representation of confirmation bias than just saying "well yeah theres maga hats on my campus so this isn't true" and arriving at unsubstantiated conclusions that way.



btw i hate this
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:30 PM   #176
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

someone else post aperson makes me nervous with his big smart brain
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:31 PM   #177
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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Originally Posted by melonpapes View Post
i don't see how my arguing and referencing anecdotes from relevant authorities in academia in this thread is any worse or any more problematic representation of confirmation bias than just saying "well yeah theres maga hats on my campus so this isn't true" and arriving at unsubstantiated conclusions that way.
They're both pretty bad ways to draw a conclusion! This is why I tried to stay away from offering anecdotes when replying to you and focused on well-cited, replicable experiments and meta-analyses.



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btw i hate this
some times learning is frustrating and not fun, so it goes
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:49 PM   #178
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Default Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC

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some times learning is frustrating and not fun, so it goes
especially when ur teacher is boring
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