Old 04-26-2021, 03:31 PM   #1
XJ-9
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Default FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

Hey all. I thought of this idea at some point last year and I haven't seen something of this nature proposed before. I was inactive for years before 2020, so my apologies if this has been suggested in some way already. The idea is as follows:

Each player would have a separate top 100 list that resets annually. This new list would contain the best scores acquired during the respective year. Each individual score would use the same AAA equivalency formula from the lifetime top 100 list to represent your level. The overall level for a user would be representative of all 100 scores in the list. (Your overall level from this system wouldn't revolve around a top 5 or top 15 formula like the lifetime top 100.)

Purely my opinion but I suggest 100 scores because it seems like an appropriate metric for measuring the overall skill of a user in this context. (More room for different skillsets.) It relates to FFR's current lifetime leaderboard format and it hits a "Goldilocks" zone of not too many acquirable scores but not too few for a year for my taste. I also believe that it would make the most sense to use every score in the list for producing a rank of this nature even if the number wasn't 100. I'm suggesting simply averaging the individual levels for the scores involved, but I'm completely open to other formulas of generating the overall level.

The benefit of this system could be on a couple fronts. Returning (and even active) players would have a better idea on where they presently stand as this list would show their best scores as they actively play. A user can use this as another way of assessing a returning player's "actual" skill. (No more scores showing "x years ago" until the end of time.) Additionally, it creates incentive for possibly changing competition each year. (Maybe some official rewards as well?)

In short, the idea is to have a second top 100 that represents how we play "right now" compared to how others play in the same moment, and not just comparing the best scores everyone has ever gotten.

Hopefully I described the idea well enough. Thanks for reading!
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Old 04-26-2021, 10:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

I agree with this idea. Being able to differentiate skill on an annual basis would provide more clarity on official tournament placements and would interestingly track what an individual's skill rating per year would be. It would also indicate how much a user improved over time, which is nice to have. We can also have more updated leaderboards containing rankings based on recent skill in a given year too.
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Old 04-26-2021, 11:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

I very much agree that a ranking which takes recency into account would be a very healthy fit for a game like FFR- seasons in particular may or may not be the best way to achieve this, but i think its a pretty good idea. I think an additional touch could be a somewhat-regularly changing pool of charts available to be played for this "seasonal" ranking. This would serve to discourage just grinding the same charts you would otherwise grind and help newer charts get more exposure.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

Something to this effect has been suggested occasionally ever since large numbers of files started going in the game each year, i.e. since 2007

The answer is always something like, "yeah that sounds cool and sorta makes sense but also sounds like a lot of work that nobody is ever going to do"
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Old 04-27-2021, 04:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

Honestly its a nice idea, it benefits not only returning players but the more active ones especially.

It could be a great way for the public to gauge which files are most popular and to see how the active userbase are faring on said files. I like to compare the present to the present personally, if i wanna see what I and others did the better half of a decade ago I'd just look at the current leaderboards. Which is a great thing and all, but it might feel more engaging and competitive for players to have a seasonal leaderboard where only scores within a set time frame are accounted for, I think.

I like the idea and with the right implementation it could turn out to be an easily welcomed change.

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Old 04-27-2021, 08:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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Originally Posted by Lights View Post
I think an additional touch could be a somewhat-regularly changing pool of charts available to be played for this "seasonal" ranking. This would serve to discourage just grinding the same charts you would otherwise grind and help newer charts get more exposure.
That would be a good way of ensuring a wide variety of skillsets are involved each year and I love the idea of giving different charts exposure. The only thing is I would like to see people of all tiers play what they are comfortable with at the same time, so they can see where they stand at their current best compared to all active players. It'd basically have to be like the tier point system but equally catering towards players in tier 1 through tier 8. (So 12-13 songs that fall within the tier 1 level range, again for tier 2, etc.) I know tier 0 is a thing but I don't know if it would be worthwhile to involve people below tier 1.

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Something to this effect has been suggested occasionally ever since large numbers of files started going in the game each year, i.e. since 2007

The answer is always something like, "yeah that sounds cool and sorta makes sense but also sounds like a lot of work that nobody is ever going to do"
It's at least good to know that there's been a demand for something like this for awhile. My first round of constant activity was from the end of 2004 towards the first half of 2012 and I honestly can't remember anything similar being talked about. It'd be interesting to see what the devs may have said specifically towards previous suggestions. All of the devs we have today have been great from my interactions, so I'm hopeful for a fair response.

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It could be a great way for the public to gauge which files are most popular and to see how the active userbase are faring on said files. I like to compare the present to the present personally, if i wanna see what I and others did the better half of a decade ago I'd just look at the current leaderboards. Which is a great thing and all, but it might feel more engaging and competitive for players to have a seasonal leaderboard where only scores within a set time frame are accounted for, I think.
This makes me want to mention a nice effect from this system. Though it wouldn't completely negate the affect of alts skewing the ranks over the year, having it reset after every year makes that impact less significant. I know you can manually report alts for removal on our current lifetime leaderboard, but having an automatic wipe helps stem a buildup over time. This annual top 100 should contain the option for manual reporting like our lifetime top 100, and it could possibly be more strict about monitoring for alts. (Not to punish people; just to remove their alts from the rankings. Self-reporting of alts would be encouraged.)

It's probably not as big of an issue with our current active userbase on newer files, but on a lot of older files you can really see how the same alts can throw your rank off. This of course has a greater impact the lower your ranking. You feel more of that present competition when you're more assured that your rank is being compared to unique accounts. I don't want to discourage people from using alts to play FFR since it's a viable way of playing in different ways, but I also don't want that to reflect on this system.


Thanks for all of the feedback everyone.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

I’m gonna come out and say it

This idea is cool, but even if it was implemented, it would be an absolute failure along the lines of the tier point system, which continues to take up needless space.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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Iím gonna come out and say it

This idea is cool, but even if it was implemented, it would be an absolute failure along the lines of the tier point system, which continues to take up needless space.
Failure in what regards? You've made a 2 claims in this post without really substantiating either of them. In what way has the tier points system failed- I personally find it to be a fun little minigame to work at while i play FFR and I'm not sure in what way its taking up "needless space". And how would the failing of the tier point system (as you put it) have any impact on an entirely different system?

You seem to be shooting the idea down without even giving a good reason why you don't think it'll work.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
Iím gonna come out and say it

This idea is cool, but even if it was implemented, it would be an absolute failure along the lines of the tier point system, which continues to take up needless space.
The tier points system meant a lot more back when the only real global ranking metric FFR had before it was average rank, so I'd agree on that being not as useful anymore.

I think this additional top 100 is a step in a better direction when you compare those two systems based on the discussion so far. Considering its use of pre-existing design I'd think it better serve the resources it'd take up, but that's obviously a topic a dev would be more suited to comment on.

If there's enough interest, I believe it's worth trying for a year to see the results if nothing else.
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Old 04-27-2021, 03:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
Iím gonna come out and say it

This idea is cool, but even if it was implemented, it would be an absolute failure along the lines of the tier point system, which continues to take up needless space.
At least to me, that's more of a failure in execution vs. failure in the idea itself. Can you clarify why the idea would be considered a "failure"?
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Old 04-28-2021, 01:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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Failure in what regards? You've made a 2 claims in this post without really substantiating either of them. In what way has the tier points system failed- I personally find it to be a fun little minigame to work at while i play FFR and I'm not sure in what way its taking up "needless space". And how would the failing of the tier point system (as you put it) have any impact on an entirely different system?

You seem to be shooting the idea down without even giving a good reason why you don't think it'll work.
No one talks about tier points, especially in a competitive nature. Tier points are hopelessly out of date. Tier points don't accomplish a single damn thing the other statistics don't do, but better. Especially with the modern systems.

You finding them as a minigame is textbook irrelevant, but if that's what makes them fun for you, hey at least you personally found a use for them. I don't share that thinking. I'd have obliterated them from existence on the site literal years ago.

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The tier points system meant a lot more back when the only real global ranking metric FFR had before it was average rank, so I'd agree on that being not as useful anymore.

I think this additional top 100 is a step in a better direction when you compare those two systems based on the discussion so far. Considering its use of pre-existing design I'd think it better serve the resources it'd take up, but that's obviously a topic a dev would be more suited to comment on.

If there's enough interest, I believe it's worth trying for a year to see the results if nothing else.
I respectfully disagree with the take that they [tier points] meant more. Frankly since we've been able to view other level ranks, they're horribly outdated. They were, at best, a horribly curated goal sheet that neglected a large repertoire of the game's content.

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At least to me, that's more of a failure in execution vs. failure in the idea itself. Can you clarify why the idea would be considered a "failure"?
You didn't understand my point, which is shocking, considering you say it here. Which is indicated by me saying I actually liked the idea.

I think my "why it would fail" is earlier here, but to short hand: it will be rendered obsolete by following the same path a current system we have has taken.
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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You didn't understand my point, which is shocking, considering you say it here. Which is indicated by me saying I actually liked the idea.

I think my "why it would fail" is earlier here, but to short hand: it will be rendered obsolete by following the same path a current system we have has taken.
Initially, I didn't understand your point because the criticism outlined in your response is more so directed to "the current system" rather than the idea proposed here. I think it's worthwhile to have another conversation about the "current system" (maybe with the devs or the mods?) but posting it here causes a ton of confusion since the thread is specifically about FFR Seasons and not necessarily "the current system".

You've made it clear that you liked the idea though, so I understand your thoughts about it now.
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Old 05-1-2021, 10:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

I personally love the idea of a seasons system for FFR, and we already have most of the infrastructure in place to execute the base concept of "season starts, season ends, season leaderboard resets".

Using the established skill rating system makes sense, and benefits both returning players who feel discouraged playing against their top scores from forever ago, and new players who can fit right in to the current season.


*Shuffles notes from 2016*


A major reason why seasons never really took off the last time this was suggested (other than lack of developer resources), was because we wanted to introduce some sort of crazy season-exclusive engine mechanics, theme, and incentives, like Path of Exile does with their league system.

I still feel there needs to be something a bit more than just a leaderboard if we want seasons to be as engaging as possible. But if the community cares more about stat tracking and getting this thing rolling, we could keep the first season simple, and just offer profile badges for the division you finished the season in.

I can't think of any real drawbacks. Since there will be no "end-of-season tournament", where everyone is placed based on their seasonal skill rating, there aren't really any incentives for underperforming.

Starting a new season every 3-4 months feels like a good sweet spot that gives more drop-in opportunities than once per year.
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Old 05-2-2021, 08:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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A major reason why seasons never really took off the last time this was suggested (other than lack of developer resources), was because we wanted to introduce some sort of crazy season-exclusive engine mechanics, theme, and incentives, like Path of Exile does with their league system.
That makes sense. There's so much that could branch off of this sort of system so I wanted to keep the suggestion as straightforward as possible to begin with to not overwhelm people. In my case, the idea for FFR Seasons came to me because of how seasons in a MOBA work, but I wanted to focus on the simple aspects first.

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I still feel there needs to be something a bit more than just a leaderboard if we want seasons to be as engaging as possible. But if the community cares more about stat tracking and getting this thing rolling, we could keep the first season simple, and just offer profile badges for the division you finished the season in.
I like the idea of having some kind of lifetime recognition like a profile badge. Other ideas could be the usual rewards like support tokens and credits for the top x players at the end of a season. There could even be an achievement token for accomplishing a specific task within any season.

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Originally Posted by PrawnSkunk View Post
I can't think of any real drawbacks. Since there will be no "end-of-season tournament", where everyone is placed based on their seasonal skill rating, there aren't really any incentives for underperforming.

Starting a new season every 3-4 months feels like a good sweet spot that gives more drop-in opportunities than once per year.
Actually, I like that idea of having them last a few months more than an entire year. I initially thought of a year because I wanted everyone to have a chance to participate at any time, but I didn't think of accomplishing that with multiple seasons in a year. I can also seeing it work well with up to a two month break after a season because of the OT during the summer and the holidays at the end of the year. Timeframes for seasons could be something like February through May and August through November.


I really appreciate the input from the dev side. It sounds like this could work out pretty smoothly in the end. The only thing I can think of asking about is your thoughts (anyone's thoughts, really) on the formula for deciding a user's level within a season. I had said a simple average before, but Wilson had mentioned using a weighted average and that sounds more appealing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WirryWoo
I weighted average across all 100 scores is the best one I can think of
The best score in your top 100 gets multiplied by the weight 100/ (1+2+...+100) or 100/5050
The second best gets 99/5050
The nth best gets (101-n)/5050
Skill rating gets multiplied by this fraction and the sum gets tallied up. Thatís my proposed skill rating
Any other suggestions are still welcomed of course.
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Old 05-3-2021, 09:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

I always liked the idea of seasons. I imagined a list of songs covering the range of difficulties and your highest AAA equivalency, or sum of best 5, or something like that would be the leaderboard metric. Profile badges and what not per season etc.
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Old 05-4-2021, 10:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

ok someone take ownership over the design and requirements and tell dev team what to do and by when
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Old 05-6-2021, 09:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: FFR Seasons [Suggestion]

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I still feel there needs to be something a bit more than just a leaderboard if we want seasons to be as engaging as possible. But if the community cares more about stat tracking and getting this thing rolling, we could keep the first season simple, and just offer profile badges for the division you finished the season in.
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