Old 08-15-2021, 01:11 PM   #1
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Default FC Stat bar - New Implementation

As you may or may not know, FFR's game client now has 2 different definitions of "FC" (Full Combo):

FC: Your current best score on the chart has 0 misses and all the notes were played;

FC*: At least one of your scores since the implementation of FC* met the requirements of an FC.

On the website however, FC* is not something that is tracked. This means that the completion statistics for FC on the profile only tracks your current best scores. This completion bar can go against the main metric of this game, which is to get AAA equivalency.

For example, if a player plays better by getting misses here and there instead of falling back on fast patterns, then the FC bar is rendered completely useless (for them) by definition.

This obviously begs the question: Should we keep an FC completion metric ?
There isn't really a good/bad answer to this. However, there are implications to each answer (yes/no):

Keep the metric: This metric is pretty similar to any other secondary metric FFR tracks, like Grandtotal, Games played or even Tokens. It's not necessary to work towards it to be ranked high according to the main metric (Skill level). It gives a different incentive to play, for whoever finds it fun to go for. As previously mentionned however, it clashes with the main metric; there are two ways to look at it:

1. It's fine as is. The FC metric is effectively one that supports 0 misses scores And can be completed by getting better. It converges to the skill level required to fulfill the AAA bar.

2. It's outdated. Completion of this metric as a secondary goal of the game goes against the main metric. In other words, in order to maximize your FC bar, you're required to either forcefully mash charts that are too difficult for you, or get good to the point where not a single chart in the game gives you trouble combo'ing.

Remove the metric: The main argument against keeping FC-related stats is the incentive to mash on charts, which is a remnant of the combo-scoring times of FFR. It is a valid argument, and it attempts to make the game more focused on the main metric instead. Removing this metric however means that some Tokens would need to be redefined, which is quite a bit more work; some players might have worked hard to unlock a given FC-based token. This approach would definitely require more unanimous approval from the community.

---

With these facts laid down, what do you think should be the way to handle FCs on FFR ?
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Old 08-15-2021, 02:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I think we should keep the metric. If anything i think it incentifies people to get better as spamming doesnt work well for FCs
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Old 08-15-2021, 02:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Based on the metric that tier points still exist, FC isn’t going anywhere.

Though seriously, I get where you’re coming from but I dunno if I agree that the FC metric inherently encourages mashing.
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Old 08-15-2021, 02:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by ToonE156 View Post
I think we should keep the metric. If anything i think it incentifies people to get better
This is valid and a fair opinion.

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as spamming doesnt work well for FCs
This is objectively false however. A simple observation to prove that is taking any set of players below Division 8 (or level 101) approximately, and asking them to achieve an FC on Fireball. Not a single of these players will achieve the FC if they do not spam/mash.
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Old 08-15-2021, 02:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
I dunno if I agree that the FC metric inherently encourages mashing.
Introducing my own opinion right here: I would absolutely mash the full remaining FCs I'm missing to complete the FC bar. It's one secondary completion metric available on the site, and as a pretty high level player I find myself lacking realistic achievements (meaningless or not) to go for. Plus I believe that it's not entirely trivial (for lower divisions) to complete given the top end charts, even with mashing.

That being said, "encourages mashing" is a big statement, which I would tend to disagree with too. It would only encourage it for that given FC metric, which is well known to be an optional thing in FFR (Skill rating/AAA equiv being the main focus for ranked performance).

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Old 08-15-2021, 03:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

i like the FC bar, i can actually fill it up, unlike the AAA bar. Its a small neat completionist thing and its nice to have it around. It might not be the main focus of the game but its a cool side objective so why get rid of it. If AAA eq is the most important thing and we get rid of everything else, if i'm not getting new scores in my top 15 why play? I think having small things like this that you can grind are good side things to do while you're not playing your best.
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Old 08-15-2021, 03:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by storn42 View Post
i like the FC bar, i can actually fill it up, unlike the AAA bar. Its a small neat completionist thing and its nice to have it around. It might not be the main focus of the game but its a cool side objective so why get rid of it. If AAA eq is the most important thing and we get rid of everything else, if i'm not getting new scores in my top 15 why play? I think having small things like this that you can grind are good side things to do while you're not playing your best.
I'm also looking to know, from people who want to keep FC bar, if an FC* (see definition in OP) should count towards that completion bar or not ?
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Old 08-15-2021, 03:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Ever since the change from Combo scoring to Raw scoring I've wanted the FC bar to be reworked. I don't think it should be removed even if it's not getting reworked: some people are still interested in FC's even though it's flawed, and people that don't care about FC's can just ignore it.

How to rework the FC system:
The main flaw of the FC system is that you can lose your FC status when improving your score. To fix this, stop tracking FC's on the website and track FC* instead (renaming it to FC).
A more controversial additional idea (and more difficult to implement due to tokens) is making "Boo" and/or "Average" break your combo. This change would make it (nearly) impossible to mash for a FC, so FC's would be a more meaningful metric to have.

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Old 08-15-2021, 04:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by benny58624 View Post
A more controversial additional idea (and more difficult to implement due to tokens) is making "Boo" and/or "Average" break your combo. This change would make it (nearly) impossible to mash for a FC, so FC's would be a more meaningful metric to have.
There has been arguments for enforcing a maximum amount of boos (absolute or relative) for an FC.

Your suggestion is that same argument except it's the specific case where the maximum absolute amount of boos is 1 (and also averages added into the mix).

I once thought of something like that (I believe it's still in the github issues, closed). The reaction was mostly negative, and nowadays I agree with it. It's purely subjective though as to whether an FC should be considered as a "good score" (relative to the current FFR's main metric) or not. I believe it doesn't need to, but that's my opinion.

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Old 08-15-2021, 04:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Yes, the times this has come up over the years I've brought up and have been a big advocate of establishing a relative boo count threshold to make full combos more meaningful if the bar was to stay. 2% of max note count is likely ideal, though personally I wouldn't mind if it was marginally stricter.

Either way if the FC bar stays or goes I'd rather an SDG bar just be added, we're long overdue for that.
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Old 08-15-2021, 04:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
There has been arguments for enforcing a maximum amount of boos (absolute or relative) for an FC.

Your suggestion is that same argument except it's the specific case where the maximum absolute amount of boos is 1 (and also averages added into the mix).

I once thought of something like that (I believe it's still in the github issues, closed). The reaction was mostly negative, and nowadays I agree with it. It's purely subjective though as to whether an FC should be considered as a "good score" (relative to the current FFR's main metric) or not. I believe it doesn't need to, but that's my opinion.
I also disagree with allowing a certain amount of boos. Boos should either break your combo or not break your combo. It wouldn't make sense to only break the combo after X amount of boos. But indeed, other than that it'd be more subjective. Most rhythm games I know do break the combo on a wrongly pressed note (e.g. Guitar Hero). That makes more sense to me.
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Old 08-15-2021, 04:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by One Winged Angel View Post
Yes, the times this has come up over the years I've brought up and have been a big advocate of establishing a relative boo count threshold to make full combos more meaningful if the bar was to stay. 2% of max note count is likely ideal, though personally I wouldn't mind if it was marginally stricter.

Either way if the FC bar stays or goes I'd rather an SDG bar just be added, we're long overdue for that.
In this case I'd have to ask: Why do you believe an FC should be defined as not only what it literally means (Full Combo), but also as a "decent score" ? My quick guess would be "relevance of the stat relative to the main metric" (because you said "meaningful"), which is fine but also makes it less "original" in a sense.

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I also disagree with allowing a certain amount of boos. Boos should either break your combo or not break your combo. It wouldn't make sense to only break the combo after X amount of boos. But indeed, other than that it'd be more subjective. Most rhythm games I know do break the combo on a wrongly pressed note (e.g. Guitar Hero). That makes more sense to me.
I think that's very fair. I don't immediately have an opinion on this.

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Old 08-15-2021, 04:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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I also disagree with allowing a certain amount of boos. Boos should either break your combo or not break your combo. It wouldn't make sense to only break the combo after X amount of boos. But indeed, other than that it'd be more subjective. Most rhythm games I know do break the combo on a wrongly pressed note (e.g. Guitar Hero). That makes more sense to me.
And yes, the problem with FFR is that every non-miss judgment continues your combo. If averages broke it or some hypothetical 4th hit judgment was introduced that did (obviously incredibly unlikely this late in FFR's life cycle), I would see no reason to introduce a boo limit threshold given anyone attempting to mash a full combo needs to be wary of avoiding these judgments.

Leaving the bar up with no restrictions so that it can be filled with triple or quad digit boo count scores seems pointless to me. I'd prefer if some restriction was set in place to ensure the full combos actually demonstrate a player's competence to play the file "correctly" in the first place, or otherwise remove it altogether.

@OP: see above, I believe FC'ing something (if it's going to be added to some stat bar) should involve the player demonstrating a certain level of competence to play the file in question, which is why I'd prefer some restrictions given FFR's judgment system. A D4 player getting a 0 miss 1000+ boo score on Jamais Vu doesn't achieve this. FC bar meta just becomes a game of smashing random keys while not failing out and completely disregarding the actual chart. I don't think that should be entertained as an option, especially if anyone is arguing "it makes players better" to keep the FC bar.
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Old 08-15-2021, 04:57 PM   #14
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Leave the FC bar but make it include both regular FC's and FC*'s.
Even if FFR uses raw-good scoring now rather than combo-based scoring, the site still in some basis encourages players to mash for FCs like for quite a few skill token unlock requirements. Think that if the site slightly encourages that for skill tokens, it overall shouldn't be a reason to remove the FC bar altogether.
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
This is valid and a fair opinion.



This is objectively false however. A simple observation to prove that is taking any set of players below Division 8 (or level 101) approximately, and asking them to achieve an FC on Fireball. Not a single of these players will achieve the FC if they do not spam/mash.
Why the heck would a player under Div 8 even try to go for an FC on a file like that? That's like if I tried to FC a 25 MSD chart in Etterna when I can only do 19 MSD charts, Then again I don't really know how tier points, AAA equivalentcy or all of that jazz works, but don't know what happens when you fill the FC bar or WHY you would want to fill it, but that just doesn't make sense to me

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Old 08-15-2021, 05:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I'm a big fan of getting a SDG bar too

If a SDG bar would be implemented, I don't think FC needs to be changed at all (other than make the website remember FC's even if your best raw score contains a miss). There'd be something for everyone. If someone wants to mash their way to a big FC bar they can do so if they want. If they prefer playing without mashing but don't want to go for perfect scores, they can go for a good SDG bar.

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Why the heck would a player under Div 8 even try to go for an FC on a file like that? That's like if I tried to FC a 25 MSD chart in Etterna when I can only do 19 MSD charts, Then again I don't really know how tier points, AAA equivalentcy or all of that jazz works, but don't know what happens when you fill the FC bar or WHY you would want to fill it, but that just doesn't make sense to me
They do because they can. I remember getting FC on difficulty 90+ files in my early days on FFR as a D1 player XD.
There's also some tokens that require you to get FC, most notably the one that requires a FC on Extratone Pirates (difficulty 94 file).

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Old 08-15-2021, 05:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by benny58624 View Post
Ever since the change from Combo scoring to Raw scoring I've wanted the FC bar to be reworked. I don't think it should be removed even if it's not getting reworked: some people are still interested in FC's even though it's flawed, and people that don't care about FC's can just ignore it.

How to rework the FC system:
The main flaw of the FC system is that you can lose your FC status when improving your score. To fix this, stop tracking FC's on the website and track FC* instead (renaming it to FC).
A more controversial additional idea (and more difficult to implement due to tokens) is making "Boo" and/or "Average" break your combo. This change would make it (nearly) impossible to mash for a FC, so FC's would be a more meaningful metric to have.
THIS, THIS. I've always held the stance that "Goods" in rhythm games shouldn't be counted towards combo, so its always weird how an Average counts towards an FC*.

Something else I don't like is the Anti-mashing/anti-ghost taping that FFR has, the devs should make it more like a passive system like how Etterna does it, instead though, they Implemented something that has randomly punished me more than it has helped incentivize me to NOT mash, but thats a rant for another day. Because of this, I think that Boos should still be counted, just make them turn an FC into an FC* like what averages do

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Old 08-15-2021, 05:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I'd leave the FC bar and have FC* counting toward it. It's just a little completionist thing anyway. Besides not everyone can mash out an FC on eg. Fireball so a +1 on a meaningless bar is enough for that achievement. If a player really wants to spend the time to mash out an FC on every song in the game just to fill that bar, they can/should.

We measure actual skill through AAA equiv. You're not getting equiv by mashing your way through everything.
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I second a SDG bar too, it doesn't sit right with me how an FC is counted but not a SDG, a rank that is, in my opinion, harder to get than a normal FC. If they also count FC*s in the FC bar or make its own bar than that's an ehhhhhhhhhh idea, not bad but not the greatest
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

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Originally Posted by One Winged Angel View Post
@OP: see above, I believe FC'ing something (if it's going to be added to some stat bar) should involve the player demonstrating a certain level of competence to play the file in question, which is why I'd prefer some restrictions given FFR's judgment system. A D4 player getting a 0 miss 1000+ boo score on Jamais Vu doesn't achieve this. FC bar meta just becomes a game of smashing random keys while not failing out and completely disregarding the actual chart. I don't think that should be entertained as an option, especially if anyone is arguing "it makes players better" to keep the FC bar.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you want is not a FC metric anymore, it's a metric of "somewhat decent scores". You know what that sounds like ? AA in Stepmania/Etterna (93% score, however your % is computed). Although I don't disagree with your statements in that regard, I absolutely do disagree when talking about the FC metric.

What would you think of making the FC bar count the FC*'s, but add a new metric similar to AA which FFR could work on defining. Imo this sounds like a much better alternative than trying to give a funky, non-intuitive re-definition to the FC metric.

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Why the heck would a player under Div 8 even try to go for an FC on a file like that? That's like if I tried to FC a 25 MSD chart in Etterna when I can only do 19 MSD charts, Then again I don't really know how tier points, AAA equivalentcy or all of that jazz works, but don't know what happens when you fill the FC bar or WHY you would want to fill it, but that just doesn't make sense to me
You should almost never see game aspects from a perspective of "why would anyone do X" when X is something that is already done by some people. In other words, some players do enjoy going for these FCs. They dont owe you an explanation for why they do, however in this case it's often for completionist mindset and/or testing how fast they can control mash.

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