NotDossaron

**DossarLX ODI** · 12-30-2010, 11:13 AM

This is NotDossaron, a notpron clone that will sometimes (read: rarely) relates to FFR.

Basically this is more of a backup for people that are waiting for the new tempend levels on NotFFRon.

LINK
http://notdossaron.webs.com/

Thread rules (basically those in the NotFFRon thread):

1. Do NOT post solutions to levels in this thread.

2. DO provide vague yet helpful hints to people who are in levels before you. Try not to reveal too much, though.

3. After level 20, guard what you say when it comes to hints. You may provide them, but at this point, a smaller hint is more likely to spoil things. When the answer is more obvious, you shouldn't have to provide as detailed of a hint.

Tips:

-Solutions to levels entered in the address bar. Example: http://notdossaron.webs.com/level.htm (make sure you have .htm after your answer). Your answers are always lowercase and have no spaces.
-Viewing the level's source code can help. Viewing the source is different for certain browsers, so you may have to look up how to view the source code on certain internet browsers.
-There are no passwords, but there will be different directories as you approach the later levels.
-The only programs you'll need are an online internet browser and maybe paint or notepad (basically free programs). Photoshop, audacity, all that other stuff won't be needed unlike in notffron.

TEMPEND: Level 26

AsphyxZero · 12-30-2010, 11:15 AM

First picture is a bg of a gay file, not doing this.

lmao just messing, I'll dick around with this after I'm done running errands.

**DossarLX ODI** · 12-30-2010, 11:19 AM

Yeah some levels in this appear pretty ridiculous haha but it's much different from NotFFRon (speaking of what you have to do)

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 12:08 PM

On level 5, and I had to guess for levels 3 and 4 (level 3 was a total guess and level 4 is TECHNICALLY incorrect if you answer the question as given, but trial and error will get you the answer anyway -- didn't use Paint, so there's a chance I am missing the "correct" way to do it). Doing the intuitive thing on 5 yields gibberish. IMO this riddle suffers from heavy reverse-bias in the face of abstraction, which are my least favorite types of riddles. That type of logic is probably fun to some -- just not for me. Prolly gonna cut it quits here.

**nois-or-e** · 12-30-2010, 12:37 PM

Yeah, after getting to level 4 in a matter of a minute. I'm gonna have to question the integrity of this attempt at a riddle game. The first 2 levels are laughable. Your 'clue' basically gives the answer and the riddle element seems slim if present at all.

Good effort mate, but I am gonna stick with notffron and trying to get through lvl52+ on Ouverture-facile before I come back to this.

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 01:56 PM

I know you probably don't care but this is my take on what makes a good versus bad riddle site.

The clues can be as cryptic as you want them to be, but they need to be prominent enough such that people can reasonably DETECT them to begin with. The first two levels aren't even really riddles -- just translation exercises. A good riddle should make someone ask "How do I interpret the clues I've collected so far?" and not "What the hell should I be paying attention to in the first place? Where are the clues?" for some overly extended period of time.

Level 3 is an example of what may be called a "bat deduction" riddle. That is to say, without knowing the answer, you COULD justify multiple answers to the riddle that would ALL be equally valid given the lack of hint differentiation. It isn't sensical, for instance, to say "Well, since **** is the right answer, you are blind because this and this are examples of clues."

A good riddle should have some sort of logical deduction scheme based on evidence. There's nothing in Level 3 that would, for example, indicate that you should pay attention to the "strangely-shaped l" of the caption. ALL the letters in this level are wacky because they're ALL graffiti-style letters. It isn't logical, therefore, to single out one arbitrary letter and say "This is the wacky letter you should pay attention to. It looks kinda like something else backwards. Therefore you should try reversing everything." There's no other reasonably hard evidence to suggest that this is what you should do.

There are countless other possibilities I could justify. Perhaps the arrows on the two O's are of importance and I should focus on where things are pointing. Perhaps the fact that the text is split in the source (unlike the predecessors) means something. Perhaps "tool" is to be taken literally -- a tool for graffiti ("Tool?" may be asking, implicitly, "What/which tool?"). Perhaps that "strange l" is really an elaborate graffiti "n" letter and I should be looking into "toon."

You could have made *anything* the answer and been able to reverse-justify it in this manner because no one clue sticks out over another. The evidence should help point to an answer. You shouldn't need to find the answer first and then fit the evidence to it.

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 02:02 PM

Avoid the following:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatDeduction

In the episode "Cancelled", South Park's parody of Independence Day, the scientist (Jeff, for Jeff Goldblum) would fixate on a random element and follow a completely nonsensical chain of reasoning to come up with the solution. For example:

Jeff: Wait a minute: butt sex! Butt sex requires a lot of lubrication, right? Lubrication. Lubruh... Chupuh... Chupacabra's the, the goat killer of Mexican folklore. Folklore is stories from the past that are often fictionalized. Fictionalized to heighten drama. Drama students! Students at colleges usually have bicycles! Bi, bian, binary. It's binary code!
...
Jeff: There's a huge ship of some kind in Earth's orbit! But why? Wait a minute: chaos theory! Chaos theory, it was first thought of in The Sixties. Sixty. That's the number of episodes they made of Punky Brewster before it was cancelled. Cancelled... Don't you see? The show is over! The aliens are cancelling Earth!
...
Jeff: Whoever they are, if they're receiving messages, they might be sending them, too. Wait a minute: candy bars. They usually come in a wrapper. Just like you... wrap a Christmas present. Christmas happens when it's cold. Cold, as in Alaska - that's... with polar bears. Polar bears... pola... polarity! I can switch the polarity to see what transmissions are coming from the location this one is being sent to!

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 02:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKWj3LyEJGY#t=3m26s

Watch from 3:25 to 4:30

EDWARD NYGMA. STICKLEY'S SUICIDE WAS OBVIOUSLY A COMPUTER-GENERATED FORGERY.

**shonen7** · 12-30-2010, 03:26 PM

Stuck on 3. Man, I suck at these kind of puzzles.

**igotrhythm** · 12-30-2010, 03:41 PM

On the other hand, there are those that enjoy lateral thinking puzzles, and this might be for them.

Example: A famine-stricken Third World country was receiving food aid from the West, but this inadvertently led to the deaths of several people. How?
Hints: They didn't die of hunger, disease or food poisoning. The relief was delivered to remote areas. The people died before they opened the packages of food.
Answer: The food was dropped by parachute in remote areas. Several people were killed when the packages fell on them.

In any case, riddles are not my bag.

**TC_Halogen** · 12-30-2010, 03:43 PM

lol at the very first image <3

**devonin** · 12-30-2010, 03:52 PM

If you're not supposed to be able to figure out how you got to the answer until you've already gotten to the answer, you're doing it wrong.

**DossarLX ODI** · 12-30-2010, 04:46 PM

Wow wtf I thought these would be really easy considering NotFFRon as a LOT harder for me - I have logical explanations for all of these levels which I would attempt for NotFFRon but they're not compatible at all. NONE of the reasoning here is random.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I know you probably don't care but this is my take on what makes a good versus bad riddle site.

The clues can be as cryptic as you want them to be, but they need to be prominent enough such that people can reasonably DETECT them to begin with. The first two levels aren't even really riddles -- just translation exercises. A good riddle should make someone ask "How do I interpret the clues I've collected so far?" and not "What the hell should I be paying attention to in the first place? Where are the clues?" for some overly extended period of time.

The first two are just to show you that you may have to use google. Just like how levels 2, 3, and 4 in NotFFRon aren't really "riddles", they're more of displaying what you may have to do. Apparently you somehow can't interpret the clues I give so that seems to be the biggest problem here.

Quote:

Level 3 is an example of what may be called a "bat deduction" riddle. That is to say, without knowing the answer, you COULD justify multiple answers to the riddle that would ALL be equally valid given the lack of hint differentiation. It isn't sensical, for instance, to say "Well, since **** is the right answer, you are blind because this and this are examples of clues."

A good riddle should have some sort of logical deduction scheme based on evidence. There's nothing in Level 3 that would, for example, indicate that you should pay attention to the "strangely-shaped l" of the caption. ALL the letters in this level are wacky because they're ALL graffiti-style letters. It isn't logical, therefore, to single out one arbitrary letter and say "This is the wacky letter you should pay attention to. It looks kinda like something else backwards. Therefore you should try reversing everything." There's no other reasonably hard evidence to suggest that this is what you should do.

Yeah well many levels of notFFRon have this too - what I could use based on logical reasoning doesn't work when it does make sense. You probably didn't read the caption/title carefully enough and so you looked at it differently. There's also the caption which I could immediately use to answer. I considered the arrows and other things, and those don't lead anywhere so you have to base your answer off of the title.

Quote:

There are countless other possibilities I could justify. Perhaps the arrows on the two O's are of importance and I should focus on where things are pointing. Perhaps the fact that the text is split in the source (unlike the predecessors) means something. Perhaps "tool" is to be taken literally -- a tool for graffiti ("Tool?" may be asking, implicitly, "What/which tool?"). Perhaps that "strange l" is really an elaborate graffiti "n" letter and I should be looking into "toon."

Again, there are levels in NotFFRon that are counterintuitive and I couldn't figure out without having to somehow guess. In level 3, the title clearly states what it is (just that the question mark is to question if that actually is the word, so something should be fishy about it)

Quote:

You could have made *anything* the answer and been able to reverse-justify it in this manner because no one clue sticks out over another. The evidence should help point to an answer. You shouldn't need to find the answer first and then fit the evidence to it.

Every single level I could find the evidence to get to the answer. I guess you really have a different mindset then.

And Jae, level 4 is what I'd do for a level like 27 in NotFFRon. It makes complete sense considering how disguised it is and also relating it to FFR (in this specific case).

If anything, when I made these levels, I could CLEARLY see all the evidence provided in them, so I don't know how you're missing everything. If you happened to get 4 due to trial and error, that's your luck since you could also input some word into the URL and go to a completely different level.

**JenovaSephiroth** · 12-30-2010, 05:19 PM

I'll start on this when I get around to it, but there are better hosting methods for these. The cry4 riddle site (inspired by Notyoff of long long ago) was also on freewebs and the source code hints were buried under mountains of ad code. The option is completely up to you, but what you can do is seek out a good free hosting site with .htaccess support (for username//password levels) and pair it up with a .tk DNS for shorter URLs. Porting the levels shouldn't take longer than an hour at best. :P

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 05:19 PM

"Tool?" at one point DOES lead you to question whether or not it actually says "Tool" or not. But the graffiti doesn't seem to indicate anything otherwise, and there's nothing about the caption that suggests it's anything out of the ordinary. It is indeed a "weird l shape" but you could say this for other letters, too. It's taking something really arbitrary and then expecting the player to understand that this means you should take its mirror.

And of course you see the clues -- you made the riddles! This is exactly my point. The evidence should POINT to the answer. You shouldn't, with hindsight, pick out the clues to support a given answer. You say "the arrows etc don't lead anywhere, etc etc" but the same can be said for other clues that don't have any immediate logical chaining. It just isn't really a riddle if you're picking something completely arbitrary in this way.

NotFFRon doesn't suffer from bat deduction -- it actually does a decent job for the most part of making the riddles solvable with some logical deductions and observations.

**JenovaSephiroth** · 12-30-2010, 05:26 PM

Upon looking at the levels, there's not as much garbage code as cry4's riddle (only like 3 extra lines) so you're in the clear, actually. Still might wanna consider something with username/password support, though.

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JenovaSephiroth

Upon looking at the levels, there's not as much garbage code as cry4's riddle (only like 3 extra lines) so you're in the clear, actually. Still might wanna consider something with username/password support, though.

IMO the best solution is to make riddle sites using PHP

**DossarLX ODI** · 12-30-2010, 05:36 PM

Since there's a huge fuss about some of these levels, I'm going to give a better indication on them.

**Reincarnate** · 12-30-2010, 05:46 PM

Hahaha, totally guessed and got level 5 too. Like level 4, level 5 suffers from input ambiguity.

**DossarLX ODI** · 12-30-2010, 05:48 PM

Alright, I just added a few more "obvious" hints for levels 1-9. If you happen to get to level 10 and get stuck, I'll be back later to change it up a bit.

Also Rubix, if you clear cache/refresh the page I put hints for level 4/5 that should make it better.

12-30-2010, 11:15 AM	#2
AsphyxZero Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Las Vegas Age: 33 Posts: 1,823	Re: NotDossaron First picture is a bg of a gay file, not doing this. lmao just messing, I'll dick around with this after I'm done running errands.

12-30-2010, 12:08 PM	#4
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron On level 5, and I had to guess for levels 3 and 4 (level 3 was a total guess and level 4 is TECHNICALLY incorrect if you answer the question as given, but trial and error will get you the answer anyway -- didn't use Paint, so there's a chance I am missing the "correct" way to do it). Doing the intuitive thing on 5 yields gibberish. IMO this riddle suffers from heavy reverse-bias in the face of abstraction, which are my least favorite types of riddles. That type of logic is probably fun to some -- just not for me. Prolly gonna cut it quits here. Last edited by Reincarnate; 12-30-2010 at 12:10 PM..

12-30-2010, 12:37 PM	#5
nois-or-e SponCon Aficionado Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: doot~ Age: 38 Posts: 3,250	Re: NotDossaron Yeah, after getting to level 4 in a matter of a minute. I'm gonna have to question the integrity of this attempt at a riddle game. The first 2 levels are laughable. Your 'clue' basically gives the answer and the riddle element seems slim if present at all. Good effort mate, but I am gonna stick with notffron and trying to get through lvl52+ on Ouverture-facile before I come back to this. __________________

12-30-2010, 01:56 PM	#6
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron I know you probably don't care but this is my take on what makes a good versus bad riddle site. The clues can be as cryptic as you want them to be, but they need to be prominent enough such that people can reasonably DETECT them to begin with. The first two levels aren't even really riddles -- just translation exercises. A good riddle should make someone ask "How do I interpret the clues I've collected so far?" and not "What the hell should I be paying attention to in the first place? Where are the clues?" for some overly extended period of time. Level 3 is an example of what may be called a "bat deduction" riddle. That is to say, without knowing the answer, you COULD justify multiple answers to the riddle that would ALL be equally valid given the lack of hint differentiation. It isn't sensical, for instance, to say "Well, since **** is the right answer, you are blind because this and this are examples of clues." A good riddle should have some sort of logical deduction scheme based on evidence. There's nothing in Level 3 that would, for example, indicate that you should pay attention to the "strangely-shaped l" of the caption. ALL the letters in this level are wacky because they're ALL graffiti-style letters. It isn't logical, therefore, to single out one arbitrary letter and say "This is the wacky letter you should pay attention to. It looks kinda like something else backwards. Therefore you should try reversing everything." There's no other reasonably hard evidence to suggest that this is what you should do. There are countless other possibilities I could justify. Perhaps the arrows on the two O's are of importance and I should focus on where things are pointing. Perhaps the fact that the text is split in the source (unlike the predecessors) means something. Perhaps "tool" is to be taken literally -- a tool for graffiti ("Tool?" may be asking, implicitly, "What/which tool?"). Perhaps that "strange l" is really an elaborate graffiti "n" letter and I should be looking into "toon." You could have made anything the answer and been able to reverse-justify it in this manner because no one clue sticks out over another. The evidence should help point to an answer. You shouldn't need to find the answer first and then fit the evidence to it. Last edited by Reincarnate; 12-30-2010 at 04:00 PM..

12-30-2010, 02:02 PM	#7
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron Avoid the following: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatDeduction In the episode "Cancelled", South Park's parody of Independence Day, the scientist (Jeff, for Jeff Goldblum) would fixate on a random element and follow a completely nonsensical chain of reasoning to come up with the solution. For example: Jeff: Wait a minute: butt sex! Butt sex requires a lot of lubrication, right? Lubrication. Lubruh... Chupuh... Chupacabra's the, the goat killer of Mexican folklore. Folklore is stories from the past that are often fictionalized. Fictionalized to heighten drama. Drama students! Students at colleges usually have bicycles! Bi, bian, binary. It's binary code! ... Jeff: There's a huge ship of some kind in Earth's orbit! But why? Wait a minute: chaos theory! Chaos theory, it was first thought of in The Sixties. Sixty. That's the number of episodes they made of Punky Brewster before it was cancelled. Cancelled... Don't you see? The show is over! The aliens are cancelling Earth! ... Jeff: Whoever they are, if they're receiving messages, they might be sending them, too. Wait a minute: candy bars. They usually come in a wrapper. Just like you... wrap a Christmas present. Christmas happens when it's cold. Cold, as in Alaska - that's... with polar bears. Polar bears... pola... polarity! I can switch the polarity to see what transmissions are coming from the location this one is being sent to! Last edited by Reincarnate; 12-30-2010 at 02:04 PM..

12-30-2010, 02:10 PM	#8
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKWj3LyEJGY#t=3m26s Watch from 3:25 to 4:30 EDWARD NYGMA. STICKLEY'S SUICIDE WAS OBVIOUSLY A COMPUTER-GENERATED FORGERY. Last edited by Reincarnate; 12-30-2010 at 02:14 PM..

12-30-2010, 03:26 PM	#9
shonen7 [GAR-CANO] Join Date: May 2007 Age: 30 Posts: 281	Re: NotDossaron Stuck on 3. Man, I suck at these kind of puzzles.

12-30-2010, 03:43 PM	#11
TC_Halogen Rhythm game specialist. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bel Air, Maryland Age: 32 Posts: 19,376	Re: NotDossaron lol at the very first image <3

12-30-2010, 03:52 PM	#12
devonin Very Grave Indeed Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 40 Posts: 10,098	Re: NotDossaron If you're not supposed to be able to figure out how you got to the answer until you've already gotten to the answer, you're doing it wrong.

12-30-2010, 05:19 PM	#14
JenovaSephiroth pink dragon irl Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: pittsburgh Age: 34 Posts: 828	Re: NotDossaron I'll start on this when I get around to it, but there are better hosting methods for these. The cry4 riddle site (inspired by Notyoff of long long ago) was also on freewebs and the source code hints were buried under mountains of ad code. The option is completely up to you, but what you can do is seek out a good free hosting site with .htaccess support (for username//password levels) and pair it up with a .tk DNS for shorter URLs. Porting the levels shouldn't take longer than an hour at best. :P

12-30-2010, 05:19 PM	#15
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron "Tool?" at one point DOES lead you to question whether or not it actually says "Tool" or not. But the graffiti doesn't seem to indicate anything otherwise, and there's nothing about the caption that suggests it's anything out of the ordinary. It is indeed a "weird l shape" but you could say this for other letters, too. It's taking something really arbitrary and then expecting the player to understand that this means you should take its mirror. And of course you see the clues -- you made the riddles! This is exactly my point. The evidence should POINT to the answer. You shouldn't, with hindsight, pick out the clues to support a given answer. You say "the arrows etc don't lead anywhere, etc etc" but the same can be said for other clues that don't have any immediate logical chaining. It just isn't really a riddle if you're picking something completely arbitrary in this way. NotFFRon doesn't suffer from bat deduction -- it actually does a decent job for the most part of making the riddles solvable with some logical deductions and observations. Last edited by Reincarnate; 12-30-2010 at 05:23 PM..

12-30-2010, 05:26 PM	#16
JenovaSephiroth pink dragon irl Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: pittsburgh Age: 34 Posts: 828	Re: NotDossaron Upon looking at the levels, there's not as much garbage code as cry4's riddle (only like 3 extra lines) so you're in the clear, actually. Still might wanna consider something with username/password support, though.

12-30-2010, 05:46 PM	#19
Reincarnate x'); DROP TABLE FFR;-- Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,332	Re: NotDossaron Hahaha, totally guessed and got level 5 too. Like level 4, level 5 suffers from input ambiguity.

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