04-18-2014, 12:13 AM | #21 | ||
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
Okay so I'm guessing you don't care about what society thinks of misanthropy and you're questioning the philosophy itself.
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I also don't see your point that talks about other species. We evaluate whether or not something is evil based on the amount of suffering it causes, and generally speaking all lifeforms that could develop this intelligence can sense its surroundings and react accordingly to this. I would say that in this case evil would still be tied to human nature, just not human nature exclusively, and evil between species would also vary due to biological/psychological differences. And you have to explain what you mean by "partially smart" because I don't understand the significance of that term. Still, this doesn't explain what all of this has to do with misanthropy. If I were to accept everything you say, and people still fall short of my expectations, how does that invalidate my view or make it illogical?
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04-18-2014, 01:04 AM | #22 | ||||
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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It's also strange for one to be a misanthrope because, to perceive humanity as inherently "evil" or whatever, you need to have the moral perspective to be able to judge that. If your human mind has the capacity to have that perspective, doesn't that mean that it can avoid the immoral actions? Obviously, it can. So it really is stupid to see "human nature" as something inherently bad. Quote:
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I was really referring to something else, in the beginning of this thread. At least, what most self-entitled misanthropes claim to believe. People who hate humanity or at least believe that humanity is inherently bad or morally inferior as a species. This kind of thinking is what I find illogical. There's nothing particularly distinct about bringing light to negative aspects of humanity. If that is the case, pretty much everyone can be considered a "misanthrope" and the label is practically meaningless. The examples in the wikipedia page are closer to the kind of thinking that I'm calling illogical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misanthropy Here's one of the first examples of the page: "My hate is general, I detest all men; Some because they are wicked and do evil, Others because they tolerate the wicked, Refusing them the active vigorous scorn Which vice should stimulate in virtuous minds." I find this kind of thinking just infuriating. He detests ALL men because he only perceives the two groups he mentioned? What about himself? Does he also "tolerate the wicked" and is just a stupid hypocrite? I don't tolerate the wicked, but I can't just somehow stop all bad people from doing bad things. What baffles me is that this line of thinking is seen as politically correct and a lot of people try to appear "smart" by saying this kind of bullshit.
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04-18-2014, 02:15 AM | #23 | |||||
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
For the record, I'm not a misanthropist. Quite the opposite actually. While I do disagree with the notion that humans are evil, I don't agree with how you're interpreting the issue.
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Good and evil is not black and white. There are varying degrees of evil, and even one particular case can have multiple interpretations. What is evil to you might not be evil to someone else. What is somewhat evil to you might be incredibly evil to someone else. Judging evil correctly may be a near impossible task, but that doesn't stop someone from thinking that humans are inherently evil. If in this person's mind he can justify his position, why would it be stupid? There's also a strange gap in your logic. Suppose I perceive humanity to be evil and I have the moral perspective to be able to judge that. How does the fact that I can simply identify and avoid evil acts say anything about humans as a whole? Even if you meant all people being able to identify evil and avoid it, you're also assuming that they choose to do so. Part of the idea of evil comes from the fact that even people who identify evil don't even choose to avoid it, sometimes embracing it. Quote:
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This is also consistent with the following description of the philosophy: "Socrates defines the misanthrope in relation to his fellow man: 'Misanthropy develops when without art one puts complete trust in somebody thinking the man absolutely true and sound and reliable and then a little later discovers him to be bad and unreliable ... and when it happens to someone often ... he ends up ... hating everyone.' Misanthropy, then, is presented as the result of thwarted expectations..." The reason why they hate all humans is because they expect humans to be perfect or almost-perfect, and then realize that all humans have certain flaws they find difficult to find acceptable. Clearly, this tends to lead to the misanthropist believing he is "above" everyone else. Arthur Schopenhauer adds: "misanthropy does not necessarily equate with an inhumane attitude towards humanity." I think you group all misanthropists and think their hate for humanity is simple and directly correlated with the nature of evil, and that's a mistake. In addition, even though we might use the words "all humans," hating humanity and hating every human being are still two separate concepts. Obviously I don't agree with this philosophy, as I think it's unrealistic and unnecessary in a certain sense, but at the very least I can understand how someone can reach these conclusions and believe them. There are people out there who are illogical in their hatred towards humans, of course, but to discredit misanthropy as a philosophy in that manner is not understanding what you're criticizing. You should target those with illogical hate, not misanthropy. Ironically, you could have the potential to be a misanthropist. You have a certain expectation of people: Quote:
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04-18-2014, 11:10 AM | #24 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
I guess I don't expect anyone to be perfect, but I still expect most people to be decent on the majority of occasions.
Well, anyhow, the quote I picked actually reflects what I have heard in many places.
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04-18-2014, 11:57 AM | #25 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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Those groups include all men. You are either wicked, or tolerate the wicked. Because, he would likely argue, if you actually were neither wicked nor tolerated the wicked, the active and vigorous scorn he feels should be stimulated would result in an eventual lack in wicked people. |
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04-18-2014, 12:58 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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Also, last time I noted, psychopaths will be psychopaths regardless of society's disapproval or "vigorous scorn". Preventing any opportunity for them to manifest is far beyond my abilities. And, no, I don't tolerate evil.
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04-18-2014, 02:11 PM | #27 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
Zaevod I literally have no clue what you're trying to argue. Can you condense it into a couple sentences?
Are you trying to argue that misanthropy is probably confirmation bias in most cases? |
04-18-2014, 04:26 PM | #28 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
Confirmation bias and overgeneralizations. I'm just arguing that I don't find this position logical. I already get that it's not the same as bigotry, but, still...
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04-19-2014, 12:54 AM | #29 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
This is a nice angle on misanthropy. However, I think a more suitable topic that could arise answers to your particular concerns is: "does misanthropy stems from ignorance, in the knowledge sense of the term (e.g. placing a blind trust on humanity and then being disappointed by it for not living up to your expectations), or could it rather consist in a lack of empathy? Can it be both?"
I'd be rather intrigued in knowing what shapes a misanthrope and how much his background weighs on the level of disdain he expresses. You seem to make the assumption that misanthropy is secluded to one mold, whereas its implications are much more intricate as a social phenomenon. Things that might apply to particular contexts you seem to refer might not apply to the whole ideology. If the whole debate is to be defined within certain situations and not the whole scope, be sure to clarify. Otherwise it is ground for miscommunication. Last edited by Crazyjayde; 04-19-2014 at 02:06 AM.. |
04-19-2014, 01:12 AM | #30 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
I was based on what I perceived to be the most common behavior of self-declared misanthropes.
If someone comes and claims that their "version" of misanthropy is just seeing humanity as inherently flawed, I'll obviously not have a problem with that. But if you expand the label to that point, it seems somewhat pointless for it to even exist.
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04-19-2014, 02:01 AM | #31 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
On the original debate, I would expand the label to determine of what nature between bigotry or sociopathy a misanthropic individual is more akin to being associated/mislabeled. Knowing how much of ignorance and/or lack of empathy is included in the shaping of the common misanthrope would significantly help in understanding its nuances.
IMO, misanthropy can either consist of the gray area between the two, in which the balance can sway lightly or heavily between either, or even the complete lack of both. The latter being closer to misology, where it's more disinterest than scorn. The ideology itself seems to be distributed organically within certain demographics, self-proclaimed or not (some base themselves on certain extent of rationality, some don't and rely on prejudice, some... etc.)* and I find it hard to pinpoint a common ground. Hence why I think the ambiguity of the misanthropic condition can set the table for a more profitable discussion. *Following link serves as a relevant example of the diversification between misanthropic beliefs: http://www.whyihatepeople.com/forum/...php?f=7&t=2704 Last edited by Crazyjayde; 04-19-2014 at 02:16 AM.. |
04-19-2014, 02:22 AM | #32 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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Secondly, if you're going to come into a critical thinking thread and make an argument or even ask a question, you should be clear about what it is you want. We couldn't answer your questions very well because it took about 2 pages of posts to figure out what you were even trying to ask. If you use the term "misanthropy" we're gonna assume it's the dictionary definition. If you have a different definition then you need to describe it. EDIT: LOL To some degree though, I understand where you're coming from. When you're talking about "misanthropy being glorified in our culture" you could be referring to cynical people (like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAmazingAtheist) who spout a lot of negativity and become very popular. I'm not a fan of this guy because I think almost everything he says is cliche criticism without any real insight. If this is what you're talking about, this isn't misanthropy.
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04-19-2014, 02:23 AM | #33 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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EDIT: okay wow |
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04-19-2014, 12:34 PM | #34 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
Why the edits?
Well, anyhow, I know I shouldn't have bumped this. People had already answered the original question in the first page. The bump was because I felt the need to reply to the last post by fido123. The rest of the discussion arised from that, but some people still thought I was discussing only the things in the original post, when I really wasn't. I should have been clear, though: my issue is not with the DISTRUST, my issue is with the HATRED. I think it's stupid and by no means "better" than what people would call bigotry. How is hatred of everyone better than hatred of a single group? I get the thing said in the link, but the fact that it comes from a website called "why I hate people" is a bit hard to ignore. It's just so profoundly stupid that people create a whole website, based on technologies made by other people, to talk to other people about why they hate people.
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04-19-2014, 04:36 PM | #35 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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Example to show you that in principle this is possible: Imagine you're a black man living in oppression because of white men. You might hate white men. Not because you hate every individual white man, but because from your experiences, the large majority (or even all) of white men you meet treat you badly, leading you to come to the generalization that white men are abusive. You make this conclusion as a way to protect yourself and prepare for what you know is most likely to happen. You may not think it's right, but can you really blame this person for thinking this way? However, suppose you have an employer here in the US that just hates black people for some petty reason. When this employer decides to reject a fantastic applicant with an impressive profile simply because he is black (or any other race), that is considered bigotry because the person who is being treated unfairly is the black man looking for the job. The root of hatred and discrimination has no reasonable basis. Where the previous case the man had a reason to hate white men (to protect himself), this employer just hates black people for a petty reason that is not reasonable. Hate is a perfectly natural emotion that almost all humans experience, for many different possible reasons. You seem to immediately target those that hate others due to generalizations as being unreasonable, and that's not necessarily true. There could be sound basis for why a person would make such generalizations, and he has every right to feel what he feels (and from a psychological standpoint changing one's way of thinking is not easy either if it's rooted heavily in habits and personality). What you should be judging is how reasonable these generalizations are, and how they affect how this person's behavior. I have plenty of friends who are generally very spiteful and full of hatred, but they don't treat people unfairly. The hatred is simply due to their nature and environment. One of them experienced a very abusive childhood, and even though she hates humanity, is very close to me and trusts me.
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04-19-2014, 04:40 PM | #36 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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A black person who hates whites is a bigot. No more, no less. Same with a white who hates blacks.
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04-19-2014, 04:58 PM | #37 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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We have all heard of people who due to some early childhood trauma, develop a fear for something. For example, a child that originally was not afraid of snakes, but is then bitten by one, could end up being afraid of snakes the rest of his life. And this is just due to one experience. Now imagine this trauma is caused by people of a particular group, who we know are aware of what they're doing. Then imagine this happening not just once but consistently throughout one's entire life, whenever he happens to encounter people of this group. I dare you to try and convince this person that this group of people isn't bad. But that doesn't necessarily mean he'll never like anyone of this group. If some situation happens where a person of this group is very kind to this person and earns trust, then it's possible that hatred would subside for this individual. But that won't stop this person from hating the group. Hating all members of a group and hating a group are two completely different things. The elements of a set is not the same as the set itself. Why is it difficult to accept that some people can still be fair to other people while having a hateful nature?
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04-19-2014, 05:26 PM | #38 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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In my experience, people who claim to hate a group want more than just distance from the group. They believe that the reduction or destruction of the group would be a positive thing. I'm unable to see a person that holds this belief as being "fair". For example: I fear bears, snakes and spiders. I wouldn't want them to die, but I'd be pretty terrified of being in the same room as them. I hate mosquitoes. I actually wish they would cease to exist where I live. Is this hatred of mosquitoes rational? Probably not. They happen to be one of the very few things I actually hate, besides evil, obnoxious and disgusting things in general. I understand what trauma is, however, my point is precisely that the hatred of a group has no rational basis.
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04-19-2014, 05:45 PM | #39 | |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
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I'm quite aware of what hatred is. And once again, I have friends that actually hate other groups or humanity in general, and yet treat people fairly. One of these friends does in fact wishes death upon all humans except for the ones she cares about, and as paradoxical as it may seem, the cause of this mindset is fairly clear and the distinction of humanity versus individual humans is also clear. Hatred for something doesn't necessarily mean you wish to eradicate it completely. It could just mean you don't want to encounter it because it causes you distress.
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04-19-2014, 05:49 PM | #40 |
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Re: Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?
You literally just said that your friend wishes death upon all humans except for the ones she cares about. Do you realize how incredibly selfish, prejudiced and unfair that is?
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