TWG XC: Deja Vu

[Afrobean]

If anyone TL;DRs this post, I will find you where you live and sodomize you with a rusty crowbar. If anyone thinks they're cute and jokingly does it, I seriously will hunt you down and sodomize you with a rusty crowbar.

Originally Posted by FreezinIce

Lol gun could have been human, but he was most definitely NOT the seer.

"Could have"?

Again, I feel I must point out. Almost every day 1 lynch is human. He PROBABLY was human just because of that, without even looking at any other circumstantial evidence.

And then in a later post, you use the word "probably" to describe the likelihood of gun's role. Is it that he "could be human" or is it that he "probably is human"? Sounds like inconsistent lie management from a rookie wolf to me.

Originally Posted by Makilaz

Care to explain your reasoning there? Otherwise, that's tantamount to a seer claim.

Not exactly.

Case 1: Freezinice is red and is doing his best to discredit a potential threat to his life.

Case 2: Freezinice is green (or MW) and knows that if he had been seer'd during night 1, the seer wouldn't assault him in the way that gun had.

Case 3: He doesn't realize that gun could have been blue without having necessarily having seer'd freezinice. Color shifts often can account for changes in playstyle, but changes in playstyle don't always denote a red shift. This is something you people seem to have forgotten, as you used a characteristic which could have easily been a blue attribute to justify killing gun.

Case 4: freezinice is himself the seer.

So, you see, freezin being the seer himself is only one of many possible subtexts behind what he said.

Originally Posted by FreezinIce

He basically threw himself out in the open with a random vote. If he was a seer why would he do that?

Because this is EXACTLY what I was advocating as my tactic I would use if I was the seer. If I caught a red, I'd pull **** out of my ass to hammer them. I wouldn't reveal myself to anyone. I would just hammer the caught red until he's thoroughly nailed and deaded.

He admitted to emulating my style in the brash attack to get things rolling, so I think it's entirely possible he'd try employing the same tactic I had said I'd use as seer.

I observed, however, that his stance was anything but solid,

He had little to attempt to justify a vote with. If he screamed with too much certainty from that ONE POST as evidence, it would look REALLY suspicious, and the wolves would definitely realize what was up immediately. I don't think gun is stupid enough to reveal himself as the seer by saying "x is definitely a wolf 100% for sure we should kill him I am absolutely solid and sure here but I can't really present you any good evidence ^_^".

and he started to break up and showed symptoms of withdrawal after only 2-3 votes his way.

He got those votes quickly. Usually when that happens, it's a good sign that you're ****ed. He had almost no support and when he saw the tables getting flipped on him, of course he's not going to be acting quite so cocky.

Go look at last game with me. When all you ****s started voting for me, I didn't play up the cockiness while I was still on the chopping block. I didn't become bold again until after I gotten myself saved from the lynch.

Don't expect a dude on the chopping block to ooze confidence, no matter how he was acting prior to everyone picking up their pitchforks and torches.

The last few posts before his lynching were also extremely thoughtless and gave of the vibe of someone who doesnt care if they live or die. Typical seer behavior?

Those posts aren't necessarily indicative of role, but rather being completely and totally pissed off at bull****. Everyone came out of the woodwork to try to kill him and it was clear even early in the day that he'd be going down by day's end. Anyone who doesn't get pissed off at that kind of baseless and yet certain death regardless of role is a robot. It's natural human emotion to get mad in that sort of a situation, whether the player is red, green or blue. The only thing is that being red or blue is going to escalate the emotion because if they die, their respective team is losing a MAJOR asset.

B) He went after me cause I "rubbed him the wrong way." Not a problem, however if he was a seer and bothered to seer me he would have noticed im green.

Who said you were necessarily seer'd? The way a lone seer should work is by having two pools of suspects: ones he actively gets lynched and ones that he seers. These pools should be completely separate and not intermingle at all. Ones that he actively tries to get lynched should be potential wolf targets (as wolves would help thin his suspect list there), while ones he seers should be ones who likely would not be wolfed (so that his list of seer'd can give him a nice list of who is not likely a wolf but is still alive).

And no, manti, that's not to say that a list of seer'd greens is a useful tool that needs to be passed on if the seer dies. It's just something which can be useful for the seer to use to pick his future lynch choices and his future seer choices.

In other words, just because you're green doesn't mean the seer won't try to get you lynched, particularly if he hasn't seer'd you and doesn't plan on wasting a seering on you.

What kind of seer seers someone, then goes after someone else that they have no information on?

The kind of seer who didn't find a red the night before. The kind of seer who is emulating my style of picking people apart and assaulting them to generate discussion and apply pressure on suspects.

C) Even as he was being voted, he didnt even mention the remote possiblity of himself being a seer.

He was also not around during the end of the day. He had also flipped his **** and likely just didn't care anymore, having lost faith in his own team (or possibly even the players in general). I've had these sorts of moments myself as a green, but usually not quite as extreme, especially as of late.

Not sure about the policy of when seers should reveal themselves, but i know if someone was voting me and i was the seer, i would at least pm the voters that info.

That would kill you. In gun's situation his best bet to survive would have been to just openly state in the thread "I am the seer, you cannot kill me." But even that wouldn't have helped because there were too many people voting for him by the final stretch of the day that wouldn't be around to move their vote off of him and on to someone else. It'd take a massive coordinated effort that would likely fail, and as fiction pointed out, he'd still end up dead anyway so he likely wouldn't care to apply all the work anyway. I know I wouldn't. Only reason I pulled it off last game was because I knew manti had enough sheep to coordinate a save with minimal effort from me, and I guessed that manti would be willing to believe me after his posts changed from wild accusations of me being a wolf to "OMG I NEED TO TALK TO YOU RIGHT NOW" (which was clearly due to him having figured me out).

Actually, if gun was a red he could have done came out as the seer too. If the real seer pops up to discredit him, it could potentially flush out the real seer for the wolves to bump off, and it could buy a wolf another day (while getting a poorly chosen human to die in his place). Not that he would have bothered if he was so pissed off for getting lynched for such an absurd reason (even if it IS a day 1 lynch and those are never very justified). Reds who get lynched over bull**** get pissed off too, just as easily as humans.

A dead seer is useful to nobody, and staying alive should be on the top of a seers priority list.

DURPA DURPA

A dead wolf is useful to nobody [on the wolf team], and staying alive should be on the top of a wolf's priority list, even if it just buys him a day or two.

Therefore, by your own logic, if he's DEFINITELY not blue, he's also DEFINITELY not red. Because they both have such a value of self preservation that they'd never get pissed off and stop caring.

Originally Posted by clarinet89

So I made a mistake in my vote count. An insta was not reached. Gun92 still dies, but u84 and BDN have received phantoms.

I personally would have counted the vote that would have made insta that was made at the time of deadline, but whatever.

And I think you said you'd be subbing-out players who got a phantom. Are you going to do this with u84 and BDN then?

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

a whole night phase

This is how long I lasted when I saved myself from the lynch by coming out to manti.

But considering the alternative, it's still a better option. It'd either be me lynched during the day and another 100% human dying at night, or it'd be a potential wolf being lynched during the day and me dying at night. Even in last game where I was pretty sure that the person being lynched in my place was human, it was the best course of action I could take. In one case, there is 100% chance of two humans dying in the two phases, but the chance is a little less than 100% in the other.

Always better to be wolfed as a blue than to be lynched. Blues should never be lynched, not if there's any reasonable way it can be avoided.

[Solid Dreams]

mandatory tl;dr

[Solid Dreams]

jk ily afro

[Afrobean]

aww

its too bad you're a wolf and therefore must die

[Viccica]

I'd have to agree with afro in the idea most day 1 lynches are human lynches, but I sincerely doubt that gun was blue. He kind of pulled a rage quit moment and didn't bother defending himself. No respectable blue would do that.

Looking back on it, gun could've been more actively trying to get involved, but his poor defense against himself didn't help his case at all.

'I'm human. If you don't believe me I quit.'

err... kaaaay?





Also, the long phases constitute for 1 phantom equalling a replacement, don't you think? 2 phantoms needed for a replacment could easily detriment the entire human team.

[Viccica]

It's okay to try and defend yourself if you have votes on you. What isn't okay is rolling over and playing dead...

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Viccica

He kind of pulled a rage quit moment and didn't bother defending himself. No respectable blue would do that.

I might have last game if I hadn't had an out (even though that out ended up not working out completely anyway).

Do you know how maddening it is to be blue and have your team stupidly trying to kill you? It's already annoying to be green and have your team try to kill you, but it's absolutely ridiculous to be blue, to be doing everything you can for the betterment of your team with your powers and to have the clueless fools thinking you'd be a good person to kill.

Actually, I probably wouldn't "ragequit". I'd probably just say "**** this you guys are retarded" and not post anymore. I know that flipping the **** out posting over and over in response doesn't do anyone any good.

Looking back on it, gun could've been more actively trying to get involved, but his poor defense against himself didn't help his case at all.

'I'm human. If you don't believe me I quit.'

err... kaaaay?

There was nothing he could do to defend himself. People started voting for him because he appeared to be acting differently.

It's not like the "evidence" against gun was something he could talk himself out of.

And shift in playstyle is not necessarily indicative of being red, ESPECIALLY this kind of shift. A red shift is usually associated with the player hiding in the back, contributing less than normal, taking fewer solid stances on issues. People were mad at gun for coming to the front, trying to spark discussion, and taking a hard stance right away.

Also, the long phases constitute for 1 phantom equalling a replacement, don't you think? 2 phantoms needed for a replacment could easily detriment the entire human team.

Detriment for the entire human team? How about the ****ing detriment of people signing up then NOT EVEN ****ING PLAYING THE DAMN GAME. I'd say that's more of a detriment. If you're not going to play, don't ****ing sign up.

What isn't okay is rolling over and playing dead...

The man was already dead when he rolled over. He didn't roll over and play dead, he realized his inevitable fate and got pissed off about it.

And actually, the way he defended himself was so indignant and hearty that it felt off. At the time I was figuring this indignation might have been from him being red and being mad about being picked off right away, but then I connected the dots on the blue theory and realized that it fit surprisingly well (especially since it fits with the fact that he was probably human due to being day-1-lynched).

[sc979]

yeah, I didn't think gun was a wolf at all when he made his vote. In his previous games where he was a wolf, he didn't really do too much and never really got caught (like the last one). People voiced their opinions on it and gun said he would try to be more active, but I don't think he'd make that drastic of a change. It actually does make more sense that he would be the seer in this case rather than a wolf.

[Viccica]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

I might have last game if I hadn't had an out (even though that out ended up not working out completely anyway).

Do you know how maddening it is to be blue and have your team stupidly trying to kill you? It's already annoying to be green and have your team try to kill you, but it's absolutely ridiculous to be blue, to be doing everything you can for the betterment of your team with your powers and to have the clueless fools thinking you'd be a good person to kill.

Yeah. I do, actually. You did it to be when I was the equivalent of a guard.

There was nothing he could do to defend himself. People started voting for him because he appeared to be acting differently.

It's not like the "evidence" against gun was something he could talk himself out of.

It's also not like he even tried. He saw there were votes on him, didn't say anything with substance in regards to defending himself. You would have at least tried. Anyone would have at least tried.

And shift in playstyle is not necessarily indicative of being red, ESPECIALLY this kind of shift. A red shift is usually associated with the player hiding in the back, contributing less than normal, taking fewer solid stances on issues. People were mad at gun for coming to the front, trying to spark discussion, and taking a hard stance right away.

Never said his shift in play was. I'd love gun to be more active a player. What got me was his poor defense on himself. Like I said.

Maybe it's just my dislike for people who get angry and give up. I don't take kindly to that attitude, no matter who it is. Honestly, it's the type of thing Bolth has done and gun is a far better player than that. (No offense intended to Bolth) If it were someone with less experience, say Panda or Bolth or maybe even AC I'd be okay with it. But.. gun's been around the block a time or two before.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Viccica

It's also not like he even tried. He saw there were votes on him, didn't say anything with substance in regards to defending himself. You would have at least tried. Anyone would have at least tried.

There is no defending what he did. He simply did it.

Were I in his position, I would have started calling people stupid. I would explain the situation once, then I would just start calling people stupid, probably laden with offensive language. What he did was explain himself a couple of times then got pissed off and rolled over to die.

Never said his shift in play was. I'd love gun to be more active a player. What got me was his poor defense on himself. Like I said.

You can't say that unless the "evidence" on a person is something which he could reason himself away from.

All he can say is "yes, I am trying something new this game because I wanted to help activity by taking a play from Afro's playbook." And he said this. There is nothing more he can say regarding it. He thoroughly explained his actions reasonably, but this wasn't enough of a defense for you?

Why should he be defensive? He didn't do anything wrong! When he actually became defensive is when he started seeming off to me, but apparently you wanted him to be MORE defensive?

[FreezinIce]

Yes, I realize that there is a good probability that gun was human. I acknowledge this. I didn't vote for him because of this. I voted for panda, because in my eyes panda was way more of a potential wolf than gun ever was. I switched to gun to force the insta (Failed), but he was never terribly high on my suspect list. The only thing that could link him to being a wolf was his (weak) connection to panda.

And about the subject of him being the seer. I honestly didnt know half the things you said, thanks you for that post. But no matter how many times i read over it, something doesnt make sense. Assuming Gun was a seer, why would he seer someone, then throw himself out in the open and go after someone else he has no information on? I ask this again because the way you justified it made absolutely no sense. ESPECIALLY on night 1 when it doesn't take much evidence to get you lynched. Going after someone puts all the attention on you and without any evidence to back your claims it could easily backfire. Again i know very little about the way a seer should act, but this just doesn't sound right and that's my common sense talking.

[clarinet89]

Good afternoon! Ruritsu has died.

Current Players:
1. Viccica (MMViccica)
2. Panda Express (HellJumperDragon)
3. FictionJunction (fikshonjunkshon)
4. FreezinIce (NEXGen33)
5. Makilaz (BenderChan)
6. tupacodaman (tupacodaman)
7. DarkManticoreX2 (DarkManticoreX2)
8. Afrobean (Afrobean16)
9. Ruritsu (ruritsu)
10. emerald000 (emerald3x0)
11. sc979 (sam97379)
12. BDN (megamngtx)
13. Gun92 (james92hofmann)
14. A2P (Awesome Lamer)
15. u84 (u8477)
16. syhto (amanetora)

[FreezinIce]

interesting

[FreezinIce]

caps filter can suck it

[FictionJunction]

I don't know, arfo. I have this uncontrollable desire to lynch Freezin now. My mind says NO NO NO DON'T DO IT but my I'm just so enraged.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by FreezinIce

But no matter how many times i read over it, something doesnt make sense. Assuming Gun was a seer, why would he seer someone, then throw himself out in the open and go after someone else he has no information on?

Because that is exactly what I would do as the seer. If I seer someone and they come back red, I'd pick apart **** until I had something to hammer the person with. If the person I seer'd comes back green, I'd pick someone else to pick apart and hammer them.

Gun admitted to emulating my style, so why would you guess he wouldn't go as far as all that?

ESPECIALLY on night 1 when it doesn't take much evidence to get you lynched.

Go back to last game and look at how I acted during day 1. Notice that I didn't pay any mind to worrying about it "not taking much evidence to get me lynched".

Part of playing the part of the aggressive accuser is confidence in ideas. Present your ideas and accusations with confidence and people with brains will be less far likely to vote for you, especially early on.

Going after someone puts all the attention on you

Wrong! Assaulting someone puts all the attention on THEM. Only a failed accusation brings attention to the accuser.

But dude. Weren't you just a minute ago stating matter-of-factly that there is no way that gun could be the seer, then you immediately turn around and admit that you have a very poor understanding of what sort of behavior a person might use as a seer, particularly when making use of certain tactical gameplay styles?

That all said, I'd like to vote for Solid Dreams. Something about her just rubs me the wrong way.

No, just kidding. I actually have a reason for this feeling, so I'll attempt to put into words what it is. In IRC, her real name is listed as "midori". That is the Japanese word for "green". I dropped a loaded question on her to see how she responded, and she seemed confused when she finally responded:

[09:24] <Afrobean> mandy, I dont think you answered me the other day, why are you green
[09:31] <Solid Dreams> huh?
[09:39] <Afrobean> midori
[09:39] <Afrobean> 緑
[09:40] <Solid Dreams> yessss
[09:40] <Solid Dreams> thats me
[09:40] <Solid Dreams> wait
[09:40] <Solid Dreams> idk
[09:40] <Solid Dreams> because i did that a long time ago and i like green
[09:41] <Afrobean> oh well thats a dull answer

I was expecting her to give a response that would allude to her role in the game, but instead I got a "huh". Any green player who is at all engaged in the game should automatically think of green being associated with the game. She didn't understand why I was asking her why she was green, because she isn't green. I'm aware that the "she is not green" subtext I am drawing at could also indicate blue, but I don't believe that is the case. I don't know about how your brains are structured, but for me, blue is a subset of green.

Also: wasn't she one of the people working to lynch gun? I know that usually a human lynched is lynched with the help of many humans, but I still don't like it with her. She was apparently able to peg me as blue before she died night 2 (crazy intuition!!), so why would she overlook the scenario of gun being blue? Any human who could have thought of gun possibly being blue should have abstained from voting for him or tried to stop him from dying. So maybe her astute senses picked up on this scenario I've alluded to and decided it'd be more advantageous to lynch him than to wait and wolf him.

ps fiction were you reading my mind or something. I almost came in here and put a vote on freezin, but I felt like that would be too easy. It would either lead nowhere or it would lead to a blind lynching of the guy. Neither of these are good.

[FictionJunction]

arfo is hilarious.

[Afrobean]

I'd also like to thank the wolves for not only not killing myself or fiction for now, but also for saving me the trouble of misreading ruritsu later on in the game and going bat**** insane trying to prove to everyone that he's a wolf when really he just has misleads in his writing style and logical flow such that he always appears red.

[FictionJunction]

they're expecting us to have at each other but we're best friends for life so that won't happen

[Solid Dreams]

I said "huh" because I never remembered you saying anything about being green. The thought crossed my mind about it being twg related, or that you were probably testing me, but I chose to say 'huh' to make sure that's actually what you're talking about. There's too much assumption involved there.