Old 10-19-2011, 03:44 PM   #4101
bballa48
FFR Veteran
FFR Veteran
 
bballa48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,496
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayword45 View Post
Very Difficult's acronym sounds like Venereal Disease.

Also, just saying, NO WAY IN HELL TTE is harder then FN or Tageri.
Tageri is a mid ish FGO, so um, yes.

But FN? Come on, that song is a freakin joke. It is the easiest FGO, and I would say that 90 percent of the population would agree with that. Of course I haven't AAA'd it because I suck, but whatever.

I am so sick and tired of people rating songs based on the average difficulty. I don't care if the last half of TTE was freakin Trip to the Moon-esque, the hard section(s) alone make it a FGO.

Wowzers, I am in a bad mood I see. Sorry for the harsh tone, but seriously... this frustrates me.
__________________
"Running is a mental sport...and we're all insane!"
Learn to run when feeling the pain: then push harder.
bballa48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 03:56 PM   #4102
Emithith
FFR Player
 
Emithith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London, Ontario, Maple Syrup Land
Age: 25
Posts: 1,784
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

I'm a bit surprised there isn't a definite, non-negotiable rule for difficulty, like if the nps is higher than a certain amount, or if the notes song length is high enough it's automatically a ____.
Emithith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 04:10 PM   #4103
Netjet!
Sic itur ad astra
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
Netjet!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Age: 27
Posts: 4,694
Send a message via AIM to Netjet! Send a message via Skype™ to Netjet!
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emithith View Post
I'm a bit surprised there isn't a definite, non-negotiable rule for difficulty, like if the nps is higher than a certain amount, or if the notes song length is high enough it's automatically a ____.
There are too many factors to be able to make a definite song "equation" for difficulty placement. It would be VERY useful if we did have one, but there are simply too many things that play into what difficulty a song is. If you can somehow figure out a way to incorporate everything into an equation, or something along those lines, that will let us decide the difficulty of a song, go ahead.
__________________
RIP Steve Van Ness <3
Netjet! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 06:30 PM   #4104
rayword45
Local Teenage Wastebasket
FFR Simfile AuthorD7 Elite KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
rayword45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: My bed
Age: 23
Posts: 2,827
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by bballa48 View Post
But FN? Come on, that song is a freakin joke. It is the easiest FGO, and I would say that 90 percent of the population would agree with that. Of course I haven't AAA'd it because I suck, but whatever.

I am so sick and tired of people rating songs based on the average difficulty. I don't care if the last half of TTE was freakin Trip to the Moon-esque, the hard section(s) alone make it a FGO.

Wowzers, I am in a bad mood I see. Sorry for the harsh tone, but seriously... this frustrates me.
Trip To The Moon-esque? lolexaggerate. I don't see how the hard parts make it an FGO? As TC_Halogen already stated, several 11's have sections equal to those (If you're talking about the 48th walls/12th jacks+bs). If that's the case, Crowdpleaser could get away with a 14.

Also, according to the scale, Reality is the easiest FGO (if we're talking about PASSING, I say HELL NO)
rayword45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 06:36 PM   #4105
bballa48
FFR Veteran
FFR Veteran
 
bballa48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,496
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayword45 View Post
Trip To The Moon-esque? lolexaggerate. I don't see how the hard parts make it an FGO? As TC_Halogen already stated, several 11's have sections equal to those (If you're talking about the 48th walls/12th jacks+bs). If that's the case, Crowdpleaser could get away with a 14.

Also, according to the scale, Reality is the easiest FGO (if we're talking about PASSING, I say HELL NO)
Name me an FMO with a tougher section than the jumptrill/burst/megaburst combo.
__________________
"Running is a mental sport...and we're all insane!"
Learn to run when feeling the pain: then push harder.
bballa48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #4106
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Simfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 29
Posts: 18,849
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

just because there's nothing comparable to a certain file doesn't mean it's FGO; there is a such thing as the highest of a difficulty, like Over a Frail Dream being the only 9 with huge extended 200 BPM 16th runs.

and Tageri is not a mid-12, not even close. sorry, but TTE isn't a 12; the 48ths are implied jumptrills at 185 BPM, which really isn't horribly fast for something that's only 7 notes. If I were to take TTE's patterns and change it to what most people are cheating the patterns as, it would look absolutely nothing like a 12.

Last edited by TC_Halogen; 10-19-2011 at 06:49 PM..
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 07:38 PM   #4107
bballa48
FFR Veteran
FFR Veteran
 
bballa48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,496
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
just because there's nothing comparable to a certain file doesn't mean it's FGO; there is a such thing as the highest of a difficulty, like Over a Frail Dream being the only 9 with huge extended 200 BPM 16th runs.

and Tageri is not a mid-12, not even close. sorry, but TTE isn't a 12; the 48ths are implied jumptrills at 185 BPM, which really isn't horribly fast for something that's only 7 notes. If I were to take TTE's patterns and change it to what most people are cheating the patterns as, it would look absolutely nothing like a 12.
Mid-12 wasn't the right term. I guess I meant "low 12", but clearly above the lowest 12s.

And by jumptrills I was referreing to the one handed jump trills that precede the burst. That is very difficult to time correctly, and then immediately you have to hit those awkward "burst like" patterns before the fast "roll", aka jumptrill.

I dunno..... screw terminology and numbers, all I know is that I have a ton of trouble with the song despite it having a lot of patterns I would consider myself pretty good at.
__________________
"Running is a mental sport...and we're all insane!"
Learn to run when feeling the pain: then push harder.
bballa48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 12:30 AM   #4108
krunkykai22
&lt;3 Jumpstream &lt;3
FFR Veteran
 
krunkykai22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Middle of nowhere
Age: 34
Posts: 5,436
Send a message via AIM to krunkykai22 Send a message via Yahoo to krunkykai22 Send a message via Skype™ to krunkykai22
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

If you want to talk about how TTE's hard parts aren't enough to make it a 12, then For FFR isn't a 10. Strangeprogram isn't an 11. Going on Spring Wind isn't an 11. the list goes on and on and on.... Hard Parts are what make the song hard. I don't care if its for 5 seconds to 5 minutes. The fact that TTE's beginning to middle section of the song is incredibly difficult to master. Just like 4 Chord Touhou or He's a Rad Rat. He's a rad rat is by far harder then TTE (imo) but that stays as an 11 (for some odd reason) If you want to base off of players scores, Reality I have gotten a BF on it. He's a Rad Rat my best is like 8 goods recently. Frictional Nevada - 3 goods or lower. TTE - 6-1-0-1. So basically that's saying Rad Rat is the hardest based off of my scores. Which, honestly, might not be far off to be truthfully honest.

Just like Kanon Kanon. The BPM and chart style make that song hard enough to where it could be an 11. Since that song to me is harder than GoSW/Choprite.... imo.

Either which way, the hard parts make the song difficult. AJ, look at Byrons song in the first round "Crimson Crescent" That song is a FFR scale 9. Just because of the trills, it was brought up to what a 35/36? Point proven. Hard parts jack up difficulty, as they should.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rayword45 View Post
They said all opinions are allowed :P

As you can see on the list, Over The Frail Dream is like a top-level 9 already.

Also, it's been stated 1,000,000 times, but:
Time To Eye - 12 -> 11
Also, Jurs OP - 8->9
Death Piano should be higher then RATO, but nobody else agrees with me on that XP
As for this: no.

Last edited by krunkykai22; 10-20-2011 at 01:01 AM..
krunkykai22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 01:06 AM   #4109
bmah
shots FIRED
Global Moderator, User Support, Judge
Global ModeratorFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
bmah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Edmonton, AB
Age: 33
Posts: 8,407
Send a message via AIM to bmah Send a message via Skype™ to bmah
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Not to mention, the hard parts of TTE occurs within the first half of the song. Hard climaxes in the latter half of songs tend to be more difficult to play through perfectly.
bmah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 01:24 AM   #4110
psychoangel691
Game, Event & Social Media Manager
All the things
Game ManagerForum ModeratorEvent StaffSimfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
psychoangel691's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bel Air MD
Posts: 10,386
Send a message via Skype™ to psychoangel691
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by krunkykai22 View Post
Either which way, the hard parts make the song difficult. AJ, look at Byrons song in the first round "Crimson Crescent" That song is a FFR scale 9. Just because of the trills, it was brought up to what a 35/36? Point proven. Hard parts jack up difficulty, as they should.

Our system accounts for files that are border and such. With a 1 - 13 scale you can't achieve this. And I'm sorry but I don't believe a 5 second difficulty spike means that a file should go up in difficulty.

Now as for why I came into this thread, I lost the list I had started for a 1 - 100 scale when my harddrive had it's freakout. So I'll have to start all over again.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charu View Post
My dick is good, thank you very much. It gets love and attention no matter what <3 <3 <3
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
also a fucking helicopter is the absolute last place I'd go to find out how big my dick is
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 View Post
Dawg you don't even know. It's so fuckin' small I can use a pen cap to jack off

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
yeah I'mma go for the Rave7 route she's just perfect, stiff on the top, thin in the middle, and has a BIG THICC END that I can just jack on all night UwU best girl
psychoangel691 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 11:42 AM   #4111
krunkykai22
&lt;3 Jumpstream &lt;3
FFR Veteran
 
krunkykai22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Middle of nowhere
Age: 34
Posts: 5,436
Send a message via AIM to krunkykai22 Send a message via Yahoo to krunkykai22 Send a message via Skype™ to krunkykai22
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Kayla - You're right and you basically agreed with what I said. Crimson Crescent shouldnt be rated what it is then. Just because of the middle jumpjack second then doesn't make it a high difficulty song then right? Basically that should have been rated a 9 in FFR Scale.
krunkykai22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 12:34 PM   #4112
justin_ator
Washed Up
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
justin_ator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Winter Garden, FL
Posts: 7,417
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Just remove it >.> I'm sick of all the debates over that one song lolol. Why don't we just melt down and take out the hard parts like we did when we ruined pain night grand tin?
__________________
justin_ator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 06:51 PM   #4113
krunkykai22
&lt;3 Jumpstream &lt;3
FFR Veteran
 
krunkykai22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Middle of nowhere
Age: 34
Posts: 5,436
Send a message via AIM to krunkykai22 Send a message via Yahoo to krunkykai22 Send a message via Skype™ to krunkykai22
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Lol remove it. That wouldn't be the modest thing to do now would it? :P

Just end the debate with a vote lol how about that? Take a community vote 11/12 and there you go.
krunkykai22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:07 PM   #4114
qqwref
stepmania archaeologist
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
qqwref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 31
Posts: 4,079
Send a message via AIM to qqwref Send a message via Skype™ to qqwref
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychoangel691 View Post
And I'm sorry but I don't believe a 5 second difficulty spike means that a file should go up in difficulty.
So Crowdpleaser is a 10? (IMO difficulty spikes are very important, even more so in a combo scoring game like this one if they are hard to combo. TTE's definitely qualify, especially if we include the weird burstglut before the second roll.)
__________________
Stepmania Song Search - 1518 packs and counting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimerax View Post
Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
qqwref is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:09 PM   #4115
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Simfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 29
Posts: 18,849
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

let's just ditch the rating system altogether.
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:11 PM   #4116
One Winged Angel
Anime Avatars ( ◜◡^)っ✂╰⋃╯
Retired StaffFFR Simfile AuthorD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
One Winged Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Squat Rack
Age: 31
Posts: 10,764
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

I still think some sort of score-based algorithm should be implemented to auto-assign difficulties to files. It would end so many useless debates at the minor cost of slightly lowering the true difficulty of some files that have way more plays than others around the same difficulty level.

Something like averaging the top ten scores on a file and assigning this value a weight of 0.5. Then taking the 25th, 50th, 100th, and 200th scores and assigning each of these a weight of 0.125 (the weights and ranks used here are just for illustration purposes, they can be anything). The 'mean' score is then calculated and the file is assigned a number from 1-100 based on what this score is. Then all we need to do is determine which values should be grouped under which difficulty headings (i.e. 77-86 = auto-assigning the song to FMO, 57-66 = C, etc.)

However, since some files have a scoreboard of 200+ AAAs, perhaps this particular system should only be used for VCs and above. Files that already have 200+ AAAs could use a separate system where the 500th, 1,000th (perhaps even 5,000th and 10,000th?) scores are taken into consideration (slightly lowering the weighting applied for each successive rank since some scores will inevitably get pretty damn sloppy the further we go down). Again, just playing with rank values right now, they can be anything.

The only problem would be presented with some files, such as Reality, that were whored to absolute shit, which would probably assign these files with a value much lower than what it should be. However, with the passage of time (and players getting more scores on those other not-whored-so-much files), the affected difficulties would gradually work themselves towards a much more accurate rating.

/2cents
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikexd View Post
i want to be cucked by cirno
One Winged Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:16 PM   #4117
qqwref
stepmania archaeologist
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
qqwref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 31
Posts: 4,079
Send a message via AIM to qqwref Send a message via Skype™ to qqwref
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Going by ranks themselves is bad because then it means the popularity of a song will directly affect its "difficulty". New songs, songs that are not fun to actually play, and songs that are hard to unlock (secret, purchased, token) will all be rated significantly higher than they should be.

I still like my old idea of comparing the community's scores on two songs to see which one people tend to score better on; too bad I don't have access to the full high score tables, so I wouldn't be able to do a mockup of the idea to show how it'd work in practice.
__________________
Stepmania Song Search - 1518 packs and counting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimerax View Post
Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
qqwref is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #4118
One Winged Angel
Anime Avatars ( ◜◡^)っ✂╰⋃╯
Retired StaffFFR Simfile AuthorD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
One Winged Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Squat Rack
Age: 31
Posts: 10,764
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Yeah, I took that into consideration as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should try to work towards creating some sort of script for FFR that'll take care of issue for us as accurately as possible instead of relying on public opinion. If your idea accomplishes this, hell, I'm game.

P.s. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what you want to do and I really like it

edit: I'm not entirely sure but I think we might run into problems with that idea unless we set a restriction to use only the most active members that have played almost every file in-game? Although we probably already have a pretty solid number of players who meet this criterion....I don't know, this might not even be a problem, you're probably thinking of formulating the script differently from what I'm envisioning
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikexd View Post
i want to be cucked by cirno

Last edited by One Winged Angel; 10-20-2011 at 07:27 PM..
One Winged Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 07:23 PM   #4119
iironiic
D6 FFR Legacy Player
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
iironiic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 30
Posts: 4,211
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

@OWA: In order to do this, we would first need a list of about 3-5 files which portrays the difficulty of the song most accurately for each of the following difficulties: easy VCs, mid-VCs, harder VCs, easier FMOs, mid-FMOs, harder FMOs, easier FGOs, mid-FGOs, and harder FGOs. That way, we can have a basic idea of the potential difficulties of the other files. An ideal list is one that challenges a player in all patterns, ranging from jacks, to speed, to jumpstream, etc.

From there, we can derive a formula to determine an accurate rating of the difficulty of the file. Of course this formula won't be perfect, but it can be tweaked as more files appear on the engine.

Also, we would need to determine what makes a particular file harder than others. Is it necessarily AAA count? Is it the patterns shown in the file? We need to make this list so that we can consider everything in our proposed formula.

Last edited by iironiic; 10-20-2011 at 07:25 PM..
iironiic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 09:30 PM   #4120
qqwref
stepmania archaeologist
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
qqwref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 31
Posts: 4,079
Send a message via AIM to qqwref Send a message via Skype™ to qqwref
Default Re: Ingame Song Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Winged Angel View Post
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should try to work towards creating some sort of script for FFR that'll take care of issue for us as accurately as possible instead of relying on public opinion. If your idea accomplishes this, hell, I'm game.
Yeah, ideally my idea would be able to accomplish that, and we won't need subjective arguments or carefully constructed difficulty formulas, just enough people playing each song. I haven't tested it yet though, so I don't know what tweaks might have to be made to get it to work properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Winged Angel View Post
edit: I'm not entirely sure but I think we might run into problems with that idea unless we set a restriction to use only the most active members that have played almost every file in-game?
Hm, what makes you say that? It's an interesting idea but I'm not sure it will be necessary. My idea was to essentially use anyone who's done well enough on both songs (say, <50 boos on a full playthrough, or something like that) but it's entirely possible that we'd need to add in some extra constraints as well to get good numbers.
__________________
Stepmania Song Search - 1518 packs and counting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimerax View Post
Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
qqwref is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution