Holds

[yo man im awesome]

Serious bsns discussion here.

I'm sure most of us have seen the -many- arguments over whether or not FFR should implement Holds/Mines (not so much mines, i'm looking at holds here). Well I'm just going to be "that guy" and bring the topic up again.

Topics:

1.) What are the positives to implementing holds into FFR?
2.) What are the negatives to implementing holds into FFR?
3.) Are there coding restrictions barring us from implementing holds?
4.) What have been previous restrictions/problems hindering us from implementing holds?
5.) Are those restrictions really valid?
6.) If holds are to be introduced, how would they be? In a new engine? Skill Tokens? Just flat out regular songs?

My claims.

1.) Holds can greatly increase the quality of stepped files, and will allow for much better interpretations of how songs feel. Holds will also allow players to increase their reading/playing skill further with holds.
2.) ???
3.) I don't code, iunno
4.) From what I know, the main argument is that it's:
a) Tradition.
b) It's what separates us from other rhythm games.
5.)
a) Really? So hindering people's gameplay and stepping experience is a good tradition?
b.) How is that a good thing in this sense? Sure we want to be unique, but that shouldn't be obtained by holding us back.
6.) If it wasn't so annoying to create a new engine, I would say make a second engine, or hell, bring back FFR r2 or whatever. Due to the annoyance of that however, I would suggest introducing holds by way of veteran songs for Veteran's to beta test and see how they play out.

Ready go.

[dragonmegaXX]

Isn't the point to NOT be an exact clone of SM? That was the entire point of holding combo scoring so long.

I dont see this idea going far.

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by dragonmegaXX

Isn't the point to NOT be an exact clone of SM? That was the entire point of holding combo scoring so long.

I dont see this idea going far.

If this were a carbon copy, we'd have theme's, xmods, personal noteskins, an editor, and mines. None of which are really necessary.

[SC_coolguy44]

Originally Posted by dragonmegaXX

Isn't the point to NOT be an exact clone of SM? That was the entire point of holding combo scoring so long.

I dont see this idea going far.

This. If you want to play an online flash rhythm game that is borderline cloning SM just play TS (which is also good in its own ways). But the point here is to make FFR its own unique game. This is why I agree with what you said.

[yo man im awesome]

b) It's what separates us from other rhythm games.
5.)
b.) How is that a good thing in this sense? Sure we want to be unique, but that shouldn't be obtained by holding us back.

..

[kmay]

unique, but not bad. holds are a very technical aspect of charts. they add so much to a file. maybe FFR could implement them differently though. like have the hold there, but no have to hold it or something. just hit the first not in the hold and it will act as you are holding the note. idk. it would be 'unique' like everyone wants it to be, but it would still hold the value of the song itself.

[infinity.]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

..

would change a lot of how the game is coded.. think about holding down an arrow key in game and how it racks up boos..

but i'm all for it and it would add a whole new dimension and rock the difficulty system

[dragonmegaXX]

Im personally all for having different themes available for the FFR engine actually

[FFR4EVA_00]

holds don't actually add anything to the game

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

1.) Holds can greatly increase the quality of stepped files, and will allow for much better interpretations of how songs feel. Holds will also allow players to increase their reading/playing skill further with holds.

your first point is irrelevant to actually playing the game and your second point is nonsensical

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by dragonmegaXX

Im personally all for having different themes available for the FFR engine actually

Oh but we don't want a carbon copy of SM, do we?

[dragonmegaXX]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

Oh but we don't want a carbon copy of SM, do we?

I was stating everyone else's general reason.

I honestly dont care either way.

[Hakulyte]

Pork Cylinders and Monster in the Water are why I never ever want to see holds or xmods on FFR. If you don't know what I'm talking about go play Thirdstyle for a few hours. People usually play games to have fun, if it's both fun and technical you get bonus points. If it's just technical, players will get bored no matter how good it is and eventually leave. Just the thought of someone spamming holds on a FFR chart makes me want to quit because as much as I loved playing TS, it wasn't as fun. Opinion ofc. I just can't word real reasons but I think it's a conflict between simfile artist/player preferences as TS is a heavily simfile artist oriented website while FFR feels more like the place for players in general.

I'd love personal noteskins and themes any day btw.

[yo man im awesome]

But that's what the judging system is here. While yes it isn't perfect, it's good enough to bar things like Pork Cylinders from coming anywhere near the game.

[Hakulyte]

I still think it's a manner of preferences rather than being "good or bad". You're more likely to get somewhere with a poll than an actual discussion. If they really wanted holds, they would have done it a long time ago. If they forgot about it, it would be good to see what coding/staff side have to say on this. It just feels weird to have 1250+ songs in-game and suddenly add holds, but it's interesting to know what can happen or why it's not happening.

[qqwref]

Yeah, IMO holds add very little to the game. Very little that I'd want, anyway. The main uses of holds are: long notes when there's nothing else going on (good, but relatively rare in hard charts), minifreezes to make the chart harder to read (ugh), sections where you hold one note and hit other notes (just for difficulty really, so awkward and almost never makes the chart feel more like the song), and holdspam sections (die in a fire).

I've played SM, TS, and KBO, all of which had holds, and I never really felt like I needed the mechanic. I don't hate it but I don't feel like I've lost anything when it's missing. Sure, it adds more variation for stepping, but so do mines and xmods (not to mention other more recent innovations like rolls or Shock Arrows), and that's just clutter. There's something to be said for the purity of just having arrows in your chart.

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by qqwref

(not to mention other more recent innovations like rolls or Shock Arrows)

going off topic for a second, what are these? never heard of them before, implying rolls aren't just 12341234

[ssbmchamp]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing them added. If used in moderation/appropriate parts they can somewhat make a file more fun to play (at least for me) but again just my 2 cents and I have no idea how to code so I don't even know how hard that would be to actually do. Curious to see what actually happens with this.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

going off topic for a second, what are these? never heard of them before, implying rolls aren't just 12341234

Rolls: introduced in ITG2, they're like holds but they look different and you have to hit the key every 0.25 seconds or so to keep it active. You see them in some pad charts.

Shock Arrows: introduced in a recent version of DDR, they look like quads with electricity around them and they basically function like a mine on each arrow. Obviously this has much more of an effect on pad players than KB players.

[LoneW0lf]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

Oh but we don't want a carbon copy of SM, do we?

Skins =/= copy.

Lots of games and programs have different skins. FFR could just rid of those stupid characters at the bottom and add some skin options. Also velo's engine or w/e the name is, has noteskins if I remember correctly. Which I liked. Not a fan of holds though, so I'm ok with that not being in FFR.

FFR v2 coming back I'm ok with. Played the hell out of that years ago.

[reuben_tate]

A good compromise would be to allow holds into the game, but have the option of turning them on/off and making it so the holds don't give the player more points, that way, people can play with holds if they find it fun and people that don't like them can play without them without worrying about being penalized.