World of Warcraft

[devonin]

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

[Solid Dreams]

The nice thing is that ret paladin rotation is pretty easy, so I had figured it out mostly by myself.

Problem was I was doing Divine Storm and Holy Wrath right away, when Crusader Strike etc are much more powerful.

And you can say that, but I've run with a lot of DKs in 25 man gear who pull 1400 dps. Most paladins do 1800, but I do 3000, in a 10 man quickie raid. I think a lot of it is that they expect to do a ton without effort. Some classes, unless you're just good at it or have been doing it for a long time, require external help. There's no point in saying "I figured this out" when you're holding people back because you refuse to attempt to get better.

[DrKirth]

We were so close downing flame leviathan with 4 people (17%). If we can get our kiting perfected we should be able to burn him down before we die of flame vents.

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by devonin

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

I'd rather run with someone who pulls 4k dps but that's just me.

[Kagome]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

I'd rather run with someone who pulls 4k dps but that's just me.

I pull 5k sup bby ;o

[Tokzic]

Did 5.5-6k yesterday on Ignis, never dropping from top spot on Recount.

And that was before upgrading my neck, belt, and boots. Can't wait to see what I'm doing tonight.

[Necamus]

I dual specced my paladin to tank.. now I rarely ever DPS. Tanking's more fun, though less competitive. Also my server has a painful lack of tanks, though I'm the second tank in my guild. But the other guy is an idiot.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by devonin

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

I fail to see why you would. I go on multiple forums to see how I can maximize my DPS but I still think for myself.

Also Affo locks got nerfed worse then your pallies, IMO when people quit for reasons like this it's good...have to put up with less idiots on servers.

[devonin]

Well, my overall point was more that the problem with people who just to go sites like EJ and MaxDPS which just tell you "use this gear, use this spec, use this rotation" is great in terms of getting high DPS trained monkeys.

I mean, yes, okay, most of the people who -do- take an interest in learning about the depths of their class mechanics and abilities -also- use those websites for additional information/comparison. I do, most of the people I run with do as well. My complaint is the people who are only concerned with just duplicating exactly whatever the website says is currently the best, without thinking about it, which is a surprisingly large number of players.

But as soon as any substantial change to the class goes in, these people become whiny useless QQers until EJ/MaxDPS catch up and provide the new best spec. Someone who took the time to figure out what the things actually do, and the best way for their playstyle to play the class have a much easier time adapting to the changes since they actually understand the intrinsics of what is underlying the powers.

I was probably one of the first 10 paladins on my server to realise that we simply didn't need a spellpower mace to tank anymore when echoes came out. I had adapted and switched before those websites had fully sussed out the change and gotten new builds up. In the meantime, the people who relied on those websites to tell them how to play their class didn't know what the hell was going on.

It's also the case that a lot of people I see who are clearly those cookie-cutter website builds insist on using that rotation 100% all of the time no matter what, and manage to fail to recognize cases where maybe they should switch things up circumstantially.

I've seen ret pallies grump and grouse about being told that they can't use seal of the martyr on Loatheb for god sakes. I just don't like DPS-obsessed people who won't do anything to jeopardize topping the list at the end of the fight, and it pisses me off. I've seen enhancement shamans and ret pallies on Kel'Thuzad who refuse the idea of taking a second to toss a heal onto someone frost tombed just to make sure they don't drop, and I've seen overtaxed or laggy healers fail to get to someone who dies, when someone else might have kept them up etc.




tl;dr: I'd rather have someone who understands the class and has made a personal choice that suits their style running with me, even if they are outperformed by someone has a cookie-cutter build that they learned from a website.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by devonin

Well, my overall point was more that the problem with people who just to go sites like EJ and MaxDPS which just tell you "use this gear, use this spec, use this rotation" is great in terms of getting high DPS trained monkeys.

I mean, yes, okay, most of the people who -do- take an interest in learning about the depths of their class mechanics and abilities -also- use those websites for additional information/comparison. I do, most of the people I run with do as well. My complaint is the people who are only concerned with just duplicating exactly whatever the website says is currently the best, without thinking about it, which is a surprisingly large number of players.

I think it's important to make the distinction here between people who want to see high numbers without thinking, and those who recognize that they don't have the time nor the expertise to determine the most optimal way to play their class, but still want to be as useful as possible to a group or raid. Take a look at the EJ Mage information thread, for example. The math involved in those calculations is ridiculous; I know I couldn't possibly come up with anything like that. I don't know enough about being a Mage to do so, and while I most certainly have the math skill to understand it, I most likely couldn't replicate it. I follow what EJ says because I trust that anyone with enough passion to bother doing all that math and checking it and updating is probably going to be right about how best to play the class, and thus how best to help out a raid.

But as soon as any substantial change to the class goes in, these people become whiny useless QQers until EJ/MaxDPS catch up and provide the new best spec. Someone who took the time to figure out what the things actually do, and the best way for their playstyle to play the class have a much easier time adapting to the changes since they actually understand the intrinsics of what is underlying the powers.

I agree that it's best if a person understands the reasoning behind why a certain spec or rotation is superior, but I disagree that people become "whiny, useless QQers" until EJ catches up. Going back to the Mage section, EJ had already figured out what the new best spec would be long before 3.1 actually came out, just from PTR assessments. Even when there was an unexpected bug with dual-speccing that shook up optimization, EJ had it figured out within the day. (For reference, the "actual" best spec for Mages now is a certain Fireball spec, and before a certain hotfix, Frostfire Bolt with some dual-speccing trickery was best).

I was probably one of the first 10 paladins on my server to realise that we simply didn't need a spellpower mace to tank anymore when echoes came out. I had adapted and switched before those websites had fully sussed out the change and gotten new builds up. In the meantime, the people who relied on those websites to tell them how to play their class didn't know what the hell was going on.

In this case, those websites probably dropped the ball on their end. See above about how EJ figured out the ideal 3.1 Mage before 3.1 even came out.

It's also the case that a lot of people I see who are clearly those cookie-cutter website builds insist on using that rotation 100% all of the time no matter what, and manage to fail to recognize cases where maybe they should switch things up circumstantially.

I've seen ret pallies grump and grouse about being told that they can't use seal of the martyr on Loatheb for god sakes. I just don't like DPS-obsessed people who won't do anything to jeopardize topping the list at the end of the fight, and it pisses me off. I've seen enhancement shamans and ret pallies on Kel'Thuzad who refuse the idea of taking a second to toss a heal onto someone frost tombed just to make sure they don't drop, and I've seen overtaxed or laggy healers fail to get to someone who dies, when someone else might have kept them up etc.

These people are probably expecting everyone else in the raid to be set up "optimally," as well. In this case, provided everyone has the necessary personal skill to run their spec correctly, they shouldn't -need- to vary from their primary job. I agree, however, that it's stupid for these people to think that way unless you're in a raiding guild in which you know everyone is specced optimally, with enough personal skill to play correctly.

Another Mage example: Noth. From what I understand, it -shouldn't- be necessary for Mages to decurse people, because healers have it within the limits of their class to handle it by themselves. But I know that that's not going to work in the vast majority of groups, so I'll sacrifice DPS and take care of the curses. I actually have my decurse bound to an easy key combination (alt+q, since I'm already using WASD to move it's an easy reach) specifically for this purpose.

But yeah, overall I don't like treating WoW as a casual game. I understand that it -can- be a casual game and excels at doing so, but I just can't have fun if I know I'm not doing everything I can to improve. This is why I read so many strategy guides, visit a significant number of websites, and try to learn everything I can. It's also why I use these cookie-cutter builds. I recognize that people much more passionate and much more intelligent than me have worked out the math and shown that these builds are the best. And since my focus is on constantly striving toward perfection, whatever the current perception of "perfection" is, those are the builds I need to use.

As for the people who just want the best build without having to think about anything...well they probably aren't going to play correctly anyway, and it'll show. These are the people who die to Heigan as ranged dps because they don't pay attention, or who drop Grobbulus's cloud in the middle of the raid.

[devonin]

These people are probably expecting everyone else in the raid to be set up "optimally," as well. In this case, provided everyone has the necessary personal skill to run their spec correctly, they shouldn't -need- to vary from their primary job.

I'm not sure how my example of a healer getting a lag spike suggests that they are failing to play optimally. To me, optimal play in the case of a KT fight, is that anybody who has healing spells that are quick try and get a heal on the frost tombed player. The loss of DPS from the 2 seconds you aren't DPSing is lower than the loss of DPS caused by a DPS player DYING in the middle of the fight (Or a healer dying, or the off-tank(s) dying)

Another Mage example: Noth. From what I understand, it -shouldn't- be necessary for Mages to decurse people, because healers have it within the limits of their class to handle it by themselves. But I know that that's not going to work in the vast majority of groups, so I'll sacrifice DPS and take care of the curses. I actually have my decurse bound to an easy key combination (alt+q, since I'm already using WASD to move it's an easy reach) specifically for this purpose.

My point is twofold in response to this:

1/ There are many people who won't do this, they won't sacrifice their DPS to make sure decursing gets done

2/ You -view- sacrificing your DPS to make sure the group gets decursed as part of being the best raid member you can be which puts you in a seperate group from the people I'm talking about.

And since my focus is on constantly striving toward perfection, whatever the current perception of "perfection" is, those are the builds I need to use.

To me the ideal way to "strive for perfection" would be to either figure out the numbers, or use their figured out numbers, and then use that knowledge to create your own spec. If you're going to just use their spec and rotation anyway because you "trust them to be correct" then what's the point in also reading about the underlying numbers? You're going to just use their conclusions too anyway.

My spec is not the ideal spec or rotation as specified by those websites, and yet I like to think I'm a pretty optimal tank at least in terms of the fact that if everybody else is doing their jobs passably well too (Like say, the biggest burst DPS in the raid isn't opening up on the guy I clearly haven't established full aggro on yet [Like guy number 4 or 5 in a big pull]) I do a damn good job building and holding aggro, stacking enough defense and avoidance to be surviviable for the healers to keep up with a minimum of effort, and yet here I am, passing on "better" pieces of gear, putting points in "bad" talents, and yet being diagnosed as "geared to be 2nd or 3rd tank" and having to either pull aggro off the main tank, or hold back to keep myself third on the list.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by devonin

I'm not sure how my example of a healer getting a lag spike suggests that they are failing to play optimally. To me, optimal play in the case of a KT fight, is that anybody who has healing spells that are quick try and get a heal on the frost tombed player. The loss of DPS from the 2 seconds you aren't DPSing is lower than the loss of DPS caused by a DPS player DYING in the middle of the fight (Or a healer dying, or the off-tank(s) dying)

A healer getting a lag spike isn't really something that should happen often enough to worry about it. An occasional blip in their connection due to the ISP having issues isn't something that can be helped, and if it happens, then "Oh well, nothing to be done about that. Might as well try again." Hopefully, someone will notice their healer is having trouble before a person is in danger of dying, and another person can take over. However, people shouldn't be -looking- to take over. They should be -prepared- to, but shouldn't expect it. In the case that they have to, then yes, I agree that would be "playing optimally."

1/ There are many people who won't do this, they won't sacrifice their DPS to make sure decursing gets done

These people are idiots and probably fall into the "I want the biggest number I can because it makes me feel good" group. Either that or they have inordinate amounts of faith in their raid members.

2/ You -view- sacrificing your DPS to make sure the group gets decursed as part of being the best raid member you can be which puts you in a seperate group from the people I'm talking about.

Point taken.

To me the ideal way to "strive for perfection" would be to either figure out the numbers, or use their figured out numbers, and then use that knowledge to create your own spec. If you're going to just use their spec and rotation anyway because you "trust them to be correct" then what's the point in also reading about the underlying numbers? You're going to just use their conclusions too anyway.

Reading about the numbers allows me to develop my own ideas when I don't have the ability to create the optimal spec, i.e., virtually always. For instance, according to EJ the current ideal Mage spec is 19/52/0 with heroic Ulduar gear enchanted a certain way. Obviously, as I haven't even completed heroic Naxx yet, I have absolutely no way to reach that level. Instead, I use what EJ has written about hit rating vs. spell power vs. haste vs. crit to determine what is an upgrade for me and what isn't, and what spec to use when I have certain stats.

The reason I'm Arcane still even though Fire is the "superior" spec is because I don't have the hit rating for it. I only have 9.49% hit off of my gear, and thus I need the 6% from talents afforded to the Arcane spec (in addition to raid buffs from Draenei etc.) to reach the hit cap. And because I'm using Arcane, which I've read to be a less crit-dependent spec than Fire, I try to stack haste more than I try to stack crit, with spell power trumping them both. This is what I'm talking about when I say I try to understand the numbers as well as I can, even though I leave optimal spec-crafting to the experts.

My spec is not the ideal spec or rotation as specified by those websites, and yet I like to think I'm a pretty optimal tank at least in terms of the fact that if everybody else is doing their jobs passably well too (Like say, the biggest burst DPS in the raid isn't opening up on the guy I clearly haven't established full aggro on yet [Like guy number 4 or 5 in a big pull]) I do a damn good job building and holding aggro, stacking enough defense and avoidance to be surviviable for the healers to keep up with a minimum of effort, and yet here I am, passing on "better" pieces of gear, putting points in "bad" talents, and yet being diagnosed as "geared to be 2nd or 3rd tank" and having to either pull aggro off the main tank, or hold back to keep myself third on the list.

"Good," or even "excellent" are not the same as "optimal." I personally enjoy running with you because I know you're an excellent tank, and I gladly accept that you prefer your own developed ideas over reading cookie-cutter builds off of EJ or something. But when I say "optimal" I mean "the absolute best as determined by the game's system of calculation with respect to a person's job." With DPS it's easy, just pick whatever gear and spec allows you to put out the most damage. It's more difficult with tanks, as there has to be a balance between threat generation, maintaining aggro for long periods of time, and survival. Because of this, there can be different flavors of tank that still result in success (mitigation vs. avoidance, for example), but there's only one flavor that is considered "optimal." So while you may have great success in your particular flavor, your success potential is less than that of someone using the optimal flavor.

This is likely why you are relegated to off-tanking. When people who know the optimal spec see you in a non-optimal spec, they automatically assume you do not have the ability to perform as well. When in reality, you may perform better in your non-optimal spec than a person in the optimal spec. In this case, the difference between "optimal" and "non-optimal" is that the hypothetical "limit" to a non-optimal spec is less than that of the optimal spec. People may misinterpret this to believe that the non-optimal spec is always inferior to the optimal one.

But like I said, with dps, it's a lot simpler. There are no "flavors" in a ranged DPS class like mine, as we have only one job: put out as much damage as possible. Granted, crit vs. haste is something of a flavor, but because any change will either strictly improve or worsen our ability to do our job, it's different from the tank flavors in that sacrificing one facet of the job may improve another facet.

Because of this, barring significant gear differences, the optimal spec will generally outperform any non-optimal specs fairly significantly. But in my case, as mentioned above, the optimal spec will -not- do as well for me as my non-optimal Arcane spec, due to the fact that I don't have the gear to support it.

[tsugomaru]

A good mix of the two is probably best. There's only so much you can do by yourself, but the help the EJ community gives is extremely useful. Just from playing the game, reading my talents, and watching my stats increase as I put on better gear, I figured out which stats I needed to focus on when gearing. However, this was based on intuition instead of formulas that I couldn't derive. EJ has done that all for me.

I wish more people could understand that charts have a poor representation of actual skill. Two of our top dps are an enhancement shaman and a rogue. When we report the dps charts, they are easily in the top 5, however, when you look at overall damage, they end up being under the tank because they failed to move out of void zones on KT. Some of our lower dps in the 3k range, although they aren't the top, they are the ones who do the most damage over a long term.

It's even worse when you look at healing meters because they are completely irrelevant. Each healer has a certain job and this job is to keep the raid or tanks alive. As long as you succeed in doing that, you haven't failed your job. Your job isn't to have the highest healing ever. In fights like Gothik when he moves back and forth, sometimes recount doesn't track heals for the other side. We once had a fight where our raid leader almost kicked another healer for doing less healing than some of the melee dps and the reason why that happened was because his healing just wasn't recorded.

Another example would be Patchwerk. I personally believe that's a good measure of dps because everyone is allowed to dps without worry. If you don't perform as well, you really don't have much other excuse than gear and, "I can't play my class". However, healing meters hardly matter here because each tank will require a different amounts of healing and the amount of healing you get on recount will be based on how much damage each tank takes.

The same is true on KT. The healer watching out for iceblocks will generally have less healing on the meters because his job is to keep the iceblocked people alive. If he tops the meters on a fight while letting people die to iceblock until we eventually have little dps, he's failed his job.

Your healing on a healing meter will essentially be how much damage your targets take and if you compare healing charts from raids to raids, they should be decreasing as everyone gets geared better and better.

EDIT: Oh yah, I like theory crafting too. However, my builds end up being similar or exactly like the EJ ones, so I guess that's pretty cool.

~Tsugomaru

[tsugomaru]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

Every time I seem to get a high level of any class they nerf it in PvP. I've never gotten to play an OP class in Arena.

You have a priest right? If you dual spec into disc, even if you're PVE specced, you'll dominate.

~Tsugomaru

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

You have a priest right? If you dual spec into disc, even if you're PVE specced, you'll dominate.

~Tsugomaru

Somewhat, but I need a really good rogue and mage =x

Still not OP though, like warrior/druid was back in BC.

[Sir Psycho]

Warrior/druid(holy pally) = win

[Squeek]

Champion of Thunder Bluff. Champion of the Undercity.

Starting Sen'Jin now. It's funny that some people haven't even finished their first one yet.

In other stupid pointless news, we set a new record on Cyanigosa. 31 seconds.

Oh and I solo Chillmaw now. Took a few tries for strategy since he's harder than most 100k elites with the elite adds and the lack of pushback but now it's no problem~

[Grandiagod]

http://www.popcap.com/promos/wow/

hell yeah

[Necamus]

oh damn, i knew about bejeweled.. but peggle? rofl

Champion of Thunder Bluff. Champion of the Undercity.

Starting Sen'Jin now. It's funny that some people haven't even finished their first one yet.

it's funny that i have no idea what you're talking about

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by Necamus

it's funny that i have no idea what you're talking about

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=857