World of Warcraft

[Squeek]

Are you talking about after the nerf or currently?

I know it's better than all the other professions currently, but after the nerf it will be the worst.

What do you AP people need for meeting metas? I know some of you use the crit meta that requires two blues.

[devonin]

Devo, you didn't answer my question.

Never said I did.

You may ask if 8 sp is really that big of a deal.

I don't ask, because, simply put, the answer is "It's utterly not a big deal at all"

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Are you talking about after the nerf or currently?

I know it's better than all the other professions currently, but after the nerf it will be the worst.

I mean after the nerf.

Someone I know ran the numbers. +66 AP is what it ends up being. This is 2 over the +64 most other professions grant.

This is very marginally better than all other professions.

What do you AP people need for meeting metas? I know some of you use the crit meta that requires two blues.

Rogues use the +21 Agi/3% Crit gem, which only needs one blue gem.

ps i mentioned this in a post earlier THANKS FOR READING IT

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by devonin

I don't ask, because, simply put, the answer is "It's utterly not a big deal at all"

If you're min maxxing like most HARDCORE raiding guilds do that 8sp is more DPS, and if every caster/healer had that 8sp in the raid it might be the difference between making Hodir hardmode or not for example. Especially when the line for hardmodes can make or break at tenths of seconds.

[Squeek]

My point isn't even that it's 8sp. My point is that it's not in line with the other professions.

It's worthless to most min-maxers now and they'll drop it as soon as the patch hits. I, however, have no choice because I need the Dragon's Eyes with Hit in them because I'm so damn hit-starved.

Every other profession has a standard for what the gain is. This one is currently above that line, so I agree that it does need a nerf. But it should be nerfed to remain equal to the other professions. That's all I'm saying.

In other news, I tanked my first instance (reg UK) on my DK. Tanking seems like fun, but I'm not going to make my DK a tank since he's a gather-whore and I don't care to give him worthwhile professions to be good. This DK is just about to do the Wrath Gate quest (just saw the cinematic, flying to the duder now). Should be fun.

In Sqek news, I finally got the belt to drop from Naxx. 20 weeks or so of Naxx every week and I never, ever saw Razuvious drop the belt. Which is a record that still hasn't been broken, as the one who dropped the belt was actually Gluth. That was the last thing I needed for Epic, even though I still have i200 rings. Had to re-gem everything for it since the old belt was some heroism emblem vendor cloth thing with Hit, and no spellpower mail has Hit on it (thanks blizz). But even with all the gemming, I wouldn't have been hit-capped. That is, until we ran EOE25 and I got the necklace from the quest reward. Better than every neck in Ulduar, so yeah I'll take it (in fact, not a single neck in uld 25 is even itemized properly for us... once again.)

[Grandiagod]

It takes quite a bit of getting used to DK tanking coming from warrior tanking. It's a lot more complex in terms of rune management and watching cooldowns but you do so much more DPS and it's pretty easy to keep aoe threat if you're frost, and single target threat if you're blood.

Dualspeccing ftw.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

If you're min maxxing like most HARDCORE raiding guilds do that 8sp is more DPS, and if every caster/healer had that 8sp in the raid it might be the difference between making Hodir hardmode or not for example. Especially when the line for hardmodes can make or break at tenths of seconds.

Squeek says JC ends up down 8 spellpower. ElitistJerks says that JC ends up in the middle, still ahead of two professions and below two professions.

[Grandiagod]

Yeah i wasn't talking about jewelcrafting exactly, more to the lines of "8sp isn't a big deal"

[devonin]

Right, and I still stand by that.

Especially with regards to things like Ulduar hardmodes. A more accurate execution of all the wacky positioning, timing and strategic elements of Ulduar bosses guarentee success far more than giving every caster DPS 8 more spellpower.

But then, the mere concept of a change to a profession causing a guild as a whole to say "Okay, every single person in our raid, drop jewlecrafting, pick up blacksmithing, two sockets are better than Dragon's Eyes by 8 Spellpower. No I don't care that you're a clothie and can't use -anything- from the skill besides the profession bonus, that 8 spellpower is the only thing making it so we can kill Yogg!" completely blows my mind.

I'd suggest instead that if a decrease in 8 spellpower is enough to make it so you can't actually complete the boss fight, that you aren't particularly hardcore after all.

[tsugomaru]

Well, if the Lightweave bonus is still better than the gains from the two sockets from BS, then the clothies should be able to keep Tailoring. Besides the convenience of making your own bags, there's really nothing else to Tailoring than the embroideries.

~Tsugomaru

[Solid Dreams]

Originally Posted by Squeek

My point isn't even that it's 8sp. My point is that it's not in line with the other professions.

It's worthless to most min-maxers now and they'll drop it as soon as the patch hits. I, however, have no choice because I need the Dragon's Eyes with Hit in them because I'm so damn hit-starved.

Every other profession has a standard for what the gain is. This one is currently above that line, so I agree that it does need a nerf. But it should be nerfed to remain equal to the other professions. That's all I'm saying.

In other news, I tanked my first instance (reg UK) on my DK. Tanking seems like fun, but I'm not going to make my DK a tank since he's a gather-whore and I don't care to give him worthwhile professions to be good. This DK is just about to do the Wrath Gate quest (just saw the cinematic, flying to the duder now). Should be fun.

In Sqek news, I finally got the belt to drop from Naxx. 20 weeks or so of Naxx every week and I never, ever saw Razuvious drop the belt. Which is a record that still hasn't been broken, as the one who dropped the belt was actually Gluth. That was the last thing I needed for Epic, even though I still have i200 rings. Had to re-gem everything for it since the old belt was some heroism emblem vendor cloth thing with Hit, and no spellpower mail has Hit on it (thanks blizz). But even with all the gemming, I wouldn't have been hit-capped. That is, until we ran EOE25 and I got the necklace from the quest reward. Better than every neck in Ulduar, so yeah I'll take it (in fact, not a single neck in uld 25 is even itemized properly for us... once again.)

I still don't like that the whole point of Blacksmithing is to get to 415 to get the sockets. They need to bring back gear that you can only use if you're a specialty, that was a pain in the ass to get, so that you felt like you were getting something out of it.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by devonin

Squeek says JC ends up down 8 spellpower. ElitistJerks says that JC ends up in the middle, still ahead of two professions and below two professions.

Keep in mind that this is assuming a certain number of available gem slots (as well as socket bonuses but I don't think they matter quite as much), so depending on class and equipment, this can of course change.

As for what I'm going to do as a recent JC convert, I'll just stick with what I've got. Even if it does end up being slightly less-powerful of a profession than the alternatives, the free 100 gold or so from the JC daily (and selling the resulting Dragon's Eye), and the reliable cash flow from cutting Scarlet Rubies are enough to keep me as a JC. I really, really don't like doing dailies, so this is much better.

[Necamus]

Originally Posted by Solid Dreams

I still don't like that the whole point of Blacksmithing is to get to 415 to get the sockets. They need to bring back gear that you can only use if you're a specialty, that was a pain in the ass to get, so that you felt like you were getting something out of it.

Yeah, I grinded BS up to 415 for the sockets then waited another two weeks before getting the motivation to grind up to 440 so I could make guildies the titansteel weapons >.>

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by devonin

Right, and I still stand by that.

Especially with regards to things like Ulduar hardmodes. A more accurate execution of all the wacky positioning, timing and strategic elements of Ulduar bosses guarentee success far more than giving every caster DPS 8 more spellpower.

But then, the mere concept of a change to a profession causing a guild as a whole to say "Okay, every single person in our raid, drop jewlecrafting, pick up blacksmithing, two sockets are better than Dragon's Eyes by 8 Spellpower. No I don't care that you're a clothie and can't use -anything- from the skill besides the profession bonus, that 8 spellpower is the only thing making it so we can kill Yogg!" completely blows my mind.

I'd suggest instead that if a decrease in 8 spellpower is enough to make it so you can't actually complete the boss fight, that you aren't particularly hardcore after all.

When the hell did I ever say that? I was top DPS in every run I did even when I was still an Herbalist, simply because I know how to play my damn class. That's not my point.

PROFESSIONS SHOULD BE EQUAL. I just showed you that JC is NOT equal. You can believe EJ all you want, but run the damn numbers for yourself. I did.

The only way JC even comes close to being equal is if your meta is one blue, or some yellows or something, or if you just ignore metas all together. If you are using the 2 blue meta and you used JC to get rid of the USELESS blue gems you were FORCED to use, then this is a huge nerf.

I know of no other profession that heavily impacts people based on one thing (metas). Every other profession is a straightforward addition of ~38 / 64 power (well except tailoring).

People shouldn't go to professions because they're OP. I agree with that. But people won't be learning JC now that it's been nerfed unless they REALLY REALLY need the gems or trinkets or if nobody else in their guild is a JC, because we all know now that it's the lowest gains for the highest cost.

I thought that JC being OP was fine considering some people had to drop 8,000 gold just to level the damn thing. It's so ridiculously hard to level that I cannot believe they're making it the worst profession in the game.

[Malkure14]

I suggest an FFR guild for the Horde on a Recc. server.

Who's up for it?

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You can believe EJ all you want, but run the damn numbers for yourself. I did.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by Squeek

After the patch nerfing JC, its bonus drops to +39 / +66.

Enchanting and BS are +38, Inscription/Leatherworking +37.

[tsugomaru]

I'm sure it's been suggested many times, however, it won't happen. Every single one of us here plays with real life friends or have made great friends with our current guild members on our server. These are attachments that not everyone will willingly give up. Not only that, a certain Tokzic dislikes playing Horde. Not to mention we'd have to level up a character to 80 and that would take a long time. It would be unrealistic for everyone on FFR to play on the same server.

Despite spending 8000 G leveling the profession, as Relam mentioned, you make about 100 G back a day doing the dailies. I make about 10 G a day doing Alchemy transmutes and absolutely none from Tailoring and Enchanting. You have yet to factor the conveniences that some of these professions have to offer. Take enchanting for example. If someone buys the mats, they don't necessarily have to tip someone to do the enchant. I make absolutely no money from Enchanting. In fact, I've poured a great deal of money leveling it and buying materials for rods. The only real convenience is that I can disenchant my own materials and do the enchants myself whenever I feel like it without having to find someone to do it for me. The bonuses I get from rings is nothing to get excited about either. The 38 SP is not likely to be the difference between a boss kill and wipe.

~Tsugomaru

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Yes, you did:



Enchanting and BS are +38, Inscription/Leatherworking +37.

That was old. I ran the numbers and came out with 29.

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...postcount=1354

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Despite spending 8000 G leveling the profession, as Relam mentioned, you make about 100 G back a day doing the dailies.

What how.

It takes 280 days to get all the cuts from the vendor, and more to get the rare drops. If you aren't lucky enough to prospect gems for cutting to sell, you have to make Icy Prisms, which costs a Frozen Orb and some gems each time to make.

You get 13 gold from doing the daily, not 100. And 13 gold hardly makes up for the 100 gold the Frozen Orb costs. If you don't get lucky with the gems, you won't be able to sell / cut anything worthwhile either. It's a dangerous game to play just to break even.

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Not only that, a certain Tokzic dislikes playing Horde.

wat

i've always said that i find people who inexplicably only play one faction to be strange

not omg alliance roxx horde suxx i'll never play a hordie ever

ps i have a 63 tauren druid and a 47 undead mage

[devonin]

It takes 280 days to get all the cuts from the vendor, and more to get the rare drops.

but if, as you say, people are only using JC because it is OMG the best raiding profession evar, they spend about ten days getting all the cuts they actually -want- (Namely, the dragon's eye cut(s) they want, and maybe their preferred meta) and then every day they do the daily, get a dragon's eye, and sell it.

That's where the putative 100G per day is coming from.

Also, it looks like your particular numbers are based on you assuming two items with both blue sockets and a +spellpower socket bonus, so you are "losing" spellpower to get the socket bonus.

If the items with blue sockets don't have +spellpower, but instead other bonuses you don't care as much about, that's less loss.

If you discount all socket bonuses (And since you said if you could still activate your meta, you'd use absolutely nothing but +SP gems, so it's safe to assume you'd be willing to lose socket bonuses anyway, or at least, your claims here support that you're -only- using blue gems now because you need them to meet your meta reqs) you have to trade 2 red for 2 blue losing you 20 SP, putting you to +34 which is still better than the +29 you concluded, if 1 or two below your stated baseline for other professions.

PROFESSIONS SHOULD BE EQUAL. I just showed you that JC is NOT equal.

I disagree, professions should be balanced, not equal. As I said, with regards to my class and spec, this change isn't actually going to effect my numbers at all. They will stay exactly how they are because there are stats I care about in all three colours.

JC is going to get worse for you. That's okay. Other professions are better for you if all you care about is the effect of the profession on your raiding stats.

I'm perfectly okay with one profession being better for generating pure SP, another for generating pure AP, as long as an overall sense of balance is maintained, and at this point, I think it is.