Old 06-9-2011, 08:13 PM   #41
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

KBO's like the shitstain of rhythm gaming
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Old 06-9-2011, 08:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

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Yes, we really need as many "pointless" rankings as possible. Even though I know what they do (make me want to play), I still fall for them.
I never called them pointless. I called them dumb and silly =p.
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Old 06-9-2011, 09:54 PM   #43
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

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Yeah we need to talk to you about that. Rofl.

Actually I thought we did talk to you about that. The game needs as many player perks as it can get...grand total included.
I'm literally almost online all day on MSN, but every time I nudge you, you never reply back.

I'm standing by my position of not adding in statistics/goals/mechanics such as grand total.

I believe there are other ways of getting more players without having to stoop that low, such as achievements (that are meaningful, such as getting a certain rank on a set). I am also not opposed to a statistic such as "ranked total for the week," because at least that is temporary.
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Old 06-9-2011, 10:03 PM   #44
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so stubborn
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Old 06-9-2011, 10:12 PM   #45
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so stubborn
When you're the lead of a project (or part of it, in this case), you have to have a clear goal and concept in mind. Whatever happens, you have to make sure you stick to it.

I can't possibly make everyone happy, and it's not realistic to listen to every suggestion that's been given to me. I know exactly what I want to see for Keybeat, so I'll accept suggestions that fit into what I want to see, but I'm not going to change my concepts and vision simply because a handful of people said so.

Stubborn I might be, but stubborn I must.
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:29 AM   #46
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

dude I can link you to so many authoritative talks and articles that will basically confirm what darkshark and others here have said.

"irrelevant mechanics" are part of what games are because games themselves are irrelevant. (I don't know what you mean by 'irrelevant', because I don't know how a mechanic can be relevant, so for this I assume you mean arbitrary.)

Having a direct measurement of a skill that progresses over time mixed with a linear system of achievement is a recipe for a dead game. Seriously. You can have skill-based achievements but you also need achievements that aren't based on skill, because when you test a skill that's so cut-and-dry as your grade on a song you end up with a semipermanent aristocracy of achievement, and no new player finds that attractive.

Here's the scenario when a new player plays KBO and all they have to work with is the grade on a song:

"well, shit. I'm 150th out of 160 on this song. everyone has the max score, let me try a harder one."

"oh wow, I barely got 20 notes into that. this guy almost full comboed the song."

one week later

"hmm. I need a game to play. What about KBO?"

"...nah. I don't have anything to do there except be good, and those guys are already way better than me. when I get closer to their position, they'll be even better than they are now. why bother?"

if you STILL don't believe me, watch this talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/tom_chatfie...the_brain.html

It's tempting to think "well, we had a lot of people on KBO before, but now no one wants to participate." KBO's original success was partly because it had FFR's success to work with. And FFR succeeded in part because it made everyone feel like their efforts would actually do something, even if it was an arbitrary something. If you have a grandtotal, sure it's not a good indicator of your skill but people feel like they're actually getting somewhere. They have room to move. If you play only for better grades on songs, things are going to get stagnant really fast. Sure, some people might be motivated, but the vast majority won't.

This doesn't just apply to music games; it's a principle which holds across all kinds of volunteering and is why political efforts at the state level work way better than at the national level: it's easier to be involved when you feel like your efforts are doing something.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:27 AM   #47
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

ah...bufang not listening to the community again
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:07 AM   #48
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

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This is actually quite the cool site, really neat 7-key engine.
Been playing there quite a while.
A couple of FFR's charters make charts for this engine as well, including JS and 0.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:12 AM   #49
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dude I can link you to so many authoritative talks and articles that will basically confirm what darkshark and others here have said.

"irrelevant mechanics" are part of what games are because games themselves are irrelevant. (I don't know what you mean by 'irrelevant', because I don't know how a mechanic can be relevant, so for this I assume you mean arbitrary.)

Having a direct measurement of a skill that progresses over time mixed with a linear system of achievement is a recipe for a dead game. Seriously. You can have skill-based achievements but you also need achievements that aren't based on skill, because when you test a skill that's so cut-and-dry as your grade on a song you end up with a semipermanent aristocracy of achievement, and no new player finds that attractive.

Here's the scenario when a new player plays KBO and all they have to work with is the grade on a song:

"well, shit. I'm 150th out of 160 on this song. everyone has the max score, let me try a harder one."

"oh wow, I barely got 20 notes into that. this guy almost full comboed the song."

one week later

"hmm. I need a game to play. What about KBO?"

"...nah. I don't have anything to do there except be good, and those guys are already way better than me. when I get closer to their position, they'll be even better than they are now. why bother?"

if you STILL don't believe me, watch this talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/tom_chatfie...the_brain.html

It's tempting to think "well, we had a lot of people on KBO before, but now no one wants to participate." KBO's original success was partly because it had FFR's success to work with. And FFR succeeded in part because it made everyone feel like their efforts would actually do something, even if it was an arbitrary something. If you have a grandtotal, sure it's not a good indicator of your skill but people feel like they're actually getting somewhere. They have room to move. If you play only for better grades on songs, things are going to get stagnant really fast. Sure, some people might be motivated, but the vast majority won't.

This doesn't just apply to music games; it's a principle which holds across all kinds of volunteering and is why political efforts at the state level work way better than at the national level: it's easier to be involved when you feel like your efforts are doing something.
I already wrote a paper based on that talk rofl, I know what you're talking about. But it is because of these talks that led me to develop some new ideas.

This, however, is a matter of ethics, not concept. I personally believe it's unethical to artificially buff the "addiction" to the game without adding any real gameplay to it. You can technically make a food product extremely successful and addictive by adding chemicals to it, but there are consequences for doing so. Though they are less extreme in the case of gaming, they are still definitely there.

I'm not disagreeing with your main point, that the players need to feel like their efforts are doing something. This is clearly true and a given. I simply am saying that there are ways of achieving this without stooping this low ethically. Games like Starcraft, for example, have plenty of ways of rewarding the player, while doing so ethically. Almost all of the achievements a player can get in the game are directly related to skill, and prepare the player for situations they may encounter in a PvP setting. They draw the player into the game, but in the end, the deepness and complexity of the game is what the player ends up loving, not the mindless superficial mechanics.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:17 AM   #50
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

By the way wasnt u stargroup who decided to remove arrows from kbo? I was active back then and that totally lost me until ffr starts lagging and kbo lags less, even with orbular.

Maybe sticking to your plan isnt working :P
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:35 AM   #51
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By the way wasnt u stargroup who decided to remove arrows from kbo? I was active back then and that totally lost me until ffr starts lagging and kbo lags less, even with orbular.

Maybe sticking to your plan isnt working :P
Yes, I decided to remove arrows from KBO, but because of such a negative response from the community, we ended up creating a compromise that was even better than simply giving players a few choices for noteskins.

Then plan not only worked, but it spawned a bunch of extra community input and activity in the form of working on custom noteskins.

The key problem right now is the distinct lack of charts in KBO. We have a solid enough userbase across rhythm gaming sites that visuals, interface, etc. are not that much of a problem. However, no interest -> no submissions -> no charts -> no interest. The focus right now should be on breaking this loop, not discussing mechanics.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:38 AM   #52
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

KBO needs grandtotal and more permanent statistics. KBO should have arrows. That is all.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:50 AM   #53
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

SG you are pretty damn stubborn when it comes to this stuff. Everyone else on the team wants KBO to get up off the ground and all, but your "ethics" kinda hold things back. You're trying to "add gameplay" to a game that has very little gameplay as a whole. You smash 6 keys to a beat. Nothing more. You can make the game as mind bogglingly beautiful as you want, and add 10 trillion songs, but unless people have something to make them feel accomplished, then they aren't going to continue playing. WHICH IS WHY NOBODY PLAYS KBO.

If this were some sort of game with an in-depth storyline or something else that would immerse the player mentally, then I'd be down for cutting out statistics, but this is not the case. It's a repetitive game, based around SELF IMPROVEMENT...and if you can't track how much better you're getting, then there's no point in playing.

ps tell blast to just use the default checkboxes o___o you don't need a graphic for those.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #54
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P.S. nice judging panel
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #55
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if this were some sort of game with an in-depth storyline
lets fucen DO IT. hueheheuehehuehueheuhue
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:03 PM   #56
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Let's add an adventure mode!
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:04 PM   #57
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With multiplayer co-op mode !!
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:12 PM   #58
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SG you are pretty damn stubborn when it comes to this stuff. Everyone else on the team wants KBO to get up off the ground and all, but your "ethics" kinda hold things back. You're trying to "add gameplay" to a game that has very little gameplay as a whole. You smash 6 keys to a beat. Nothing more. You can make the game as mind bogglingly beautiful as you want, and add 10 trillion songs, but unless people have something to make them feel accomplished, then they aren't going to continue playing. WHICH IS WHY NOBODY PLAYS KBO.

If this were some sort of game with an in-depth storyline or something else that would immerse the player mentally, then I'd be down for cutting out statistics, but this is not the case. It's a repetitive game, based around SELF IMPROVEMENT...and if you can't track how much better you're getting, then there's no point in playing.

ps tell blast to just use the default checkboxes o___o you don't need a graphic for those.
I don't know what part of "there are other ways to achieve this" people are not getting.

I don't want grand total statistics.
I'm okay with total for the week. I'm okay with total for the month.
I'm okay with meaningful achievements.
All of these things "track how much better you're getting."

I still don't want grand totals.
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:16 PM   #59
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Let's add an adventure mode!
Please wait warmly as rhythm gamers are preparing....
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:23 PM   #60
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Default Re: KeyBeatOnline.com

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I'm okay with total for the week. I'm okay with total for the month.
I'm okay with meaningful achievements.
All of these things "track how much better you're getting."

I still don't want players to be able to see how much they play in comparison to other players.
Logic. It's missing.


** Let's look at my grandtotal here on FFR for instance. I had an all time high of rank 3 in grand total score, BECAUSE I PLAYED THIS GAME A ****LOAD, and getting it to rank 3 made me feel accomplished, even though we all know grand total is not a measurement of skill in any way, it pushed me to PLAY MORE, which in turn MADE ME BETTER and I could track my actual skill progress through other statistical data on the site. I know for a fact a huge portion of this site likes seeing their grand total rank go up, and we all know exactly what it measures. Until you come up with a good replacement for grand total, I say it goes into the game.

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