Real musicians

[devonin]

Too many elitist people try and say that stuff is or isn't music, just because it's not what they like etc

And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

[Lucifericrucifix]

I'm a drummer myself and I'd like to believe we are considered musicians. We can learn and apply musical theory to what is really the same extent as any other musician. You can actually place tones for different notes and use similar scales (A piccolo snare and a deep one we'll say) could be considered on different scales, assuming the rest of the drums represent a similar tonality. Hypothetically you could voice lead and all of that..But, it's so uncommon that anyone would go to that extent even in a symphony when all of that can be written in much more simplistic terms for percussion (Unless of course it's something much more elaborate than typical drums, I.E Xylophone like instrument or something.) Regardless, Berklee has a rather intuitive percussion program so just saying that much, I'd say it's safe to assume they are musicians. Essentially, they carry a similar role that a bass player might or any backing rhythm player would, but that is different for each genre of music.

Also, on a side note. No, Avenged Sevenfold does not have an amazing musician as much as they just have one who is skilled in some simple finger tapping, I don't believe their music escapes 4/4 timing as is..Not to completely discredit him work though.

And..Yet again. Speaking in more simplistic terms, drummers probably do the most work out of anyone in a band (assuming the context is a band.) They aren't simply just musicians, it becomes a physical endurance exercise the more intense it becomes. Guitarists might have some complicated things as well sure, but when it comes to drums, you can come up with odd phrasings as a guitarist can but once you break the 220 BPM barrier and things like that, it's far more than just musicianship.

Flesh Field, Chris Adler has an interesting play style, but certainly not one of the best by any means. Dennis Chambers, Dave Wecykl, Buddy Rich, those are incredible drummers. I do appreciate Chris Adlers work, but I find drummers in a similar genre (namely, Mathias Modin, George Kollias, Flo Mounier, and Dennis Röndum) to show much more ability.
..Wasn't aware this was a "Critical Thinking" topic, though it could spawn something interesting.

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by devonin

And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

You are a sound engineer by trade. If you also consider yourself to make music, then you are. I said earlier that the -only- non-subjective way you could possibly define "A musician" is someone who earns a living performing what they identify as music. It is similar to the definition of Amateur and Professional as applied to things like sports. Anyone can make music, only people who do so for a living are "musicians"

Mind you, that's just the non-subjective way to define it. If subjectivity rules the day for you (heh) then really, a musician is anyone who can convince someone else that they are a musician. And Jewpin, I've heard your stuff, you are a musician.

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

Well, my addition to that is "how -everything- is percieved is largely (if not wholly) influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience." not just the arts. We tend to just see it as more of a bad thing when it comes to creative expression we like and others don't.

[hayatewillown]

I'm a drummer of two bands. If I provide the beat, then I call it music.

I'm a musician with the trumpet anyways.

[u84]

Drummers are definitely real musicians. Here is a link to a musician who has multiple CDs out. All of them sound amazing and there is a sample for them here:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/tonyvacca1

Most of his stuff is only by him. All the drumming instruments, including the xylophone, are done by him. Even that little whistle in the background of some of them. The singing is also him.

[Sir_Thomas]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

[hayatewillown]

Originally Posted by Sir_Thomas

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

Yeah I think music theory really plays a big role. Especially with a synthesizer. You can hear the beats string in together and even make some great noise.

Still, drummers are musicians, because they have a rhythm and make noise. That noise is usually sonorous ( sounds good I think that is what that means ) because it provides the beat.

I don't know.

[Wlfwnd91]

I believe a musician is anyone who creates their own music with heart in it. Now, whether someone puts heart in their music is difficult to tell. I believe I can hear when someone has passion and when someone doesn't, but there's no way to tell for sure.

If you can play fast and keep an amazing beat, but you're just playing what's written for you to play, then I don't believe you're a musician. If you write your own music from your soul then I beleive you are. I've heard percussion bands that have created worlds of sound, so I know it can be done. There are some drummers who aren't musicians (in my definition of the word) and some drummers who are. There are also guitarists, bassists, vocalists, brass and woodwind players as well who aren't musicians, even if they've been playing 10 years. And I know people who have played 10 months and are greater musicians.

This is all in my definition of the word, and it's all subjective, as Devonin is saying. As for what's art and what isn't, that's something that's defined by the person viewing it and ONLY them. I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is.

[devonin]

I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is.

It is, though, interesting to note some of the iconic examples of artforms that virtually everyone in a culture will identify as being such, even if they don't particularly like it.

The Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 4th and 9th symphonies, etc etc. They've just somehow entered the collective consciousness as being -art- and in such cases, being -good- art even though we all freely admit how subjective such things are.

[Wlfwnd91]

Originally Posted by devonin

It is, though, interesting to note some of the iconic examples of artforms that virtually everyone in a culture will identify as being such, even if they don't particularly like it.

The Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 4th and 9th symphonies, etc etc. They've just somehow entered the collective consciousness as being -art- and in such cases, being -good- art even though we all freely admit how subjective such things are.

But, what makes these things so accepted as art? Is it possible that it's just that they were accepted as art by the mainstream for so many years so it's just become typical to believe it to be art? Or is there something that just seems to make sense? Something in all those works of art that everyone just identifies as artistic?

[tsugomaru]

If we were to take this logically, real musicians would be the ones who measure out each and every wavelength and frequency and compose a combination of these wavelengths and frequencies into a piece that is most pleasing to the ear. However, the basis of this is all opinion and the result is also, all opinion. So we can rule logic out in this discussion.

Real musicians are those who make music. It doesn't matter whether the music is original, from the heart, or just plain noise, as long as there's someone to enjoy it, it'll be music.

~Tsugomaru

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by Sir_Thomas

With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Actually, I'd say that great thing about tracking is that you can experiment with various sounds and arrangements at a whim.

A majority of them time, I go into making a song with no preconceived idea. A lot of my inspiration comes from working with various synthesizers and effects to make a sound. Recently, I've gotten into using samples, many of them my own. I'm trying use more acoustic instruments in my songs. I also like using the cut-up technique to rearrange songs. But for the most part, it's pure electronic music, probably incapable being reproduced by conventional instruments. I mean, if you asked me to play one of my songs on a keyboard...i'd just laugh at you (actually, there are a few that I've composed on my synthesizer, but rarely more than a riff).

[cammy_g1]

A drummer is most definitely a musician, anybody that does not think so is most obviously blind to the fact that drummers do solos, and they sound amazing. I mean if a person can make rhythmic sounds from hitting drums then dont you think they should be worthy of being a musician, i mean phil collins is known as a musician and he just makes noise.

[Killler_bunny]

Music is, really when you think about it, just noise. If you can make noise, while making it sound good (good being anything from a cute riff to a steady beat, and everything in between), you are a musician of sorts. It's really easy to go around hitting a drum or strum a few strings and call yourself a musician, the thing is, if you're not good, no one will listen to you... So, what it all comes down to, is yeah, a drummer is a musician, just as much as a guitarist is. (or any other instrument)

[cammy_g1]

Music is just noise if that is the way you think about it, but i think music is a reflection of soul and the life that you lead. A real musician, in my opinion, as no answer is the correct one, is a person in which believes in their music and has a passion for it, it just flows through them like blood. A person that just does it for the money is not a musician in my eyes.

[Bamboozler]

I just recently finished/quit our school band (played the clarinet for some years). I can say without a doubt in my mind that drummers are musicians, as they play a key role in supporting just about ANY song, even in a classical instrument band such as my schools.

To put it into perspective, imagine a platoon of well built, battle ready, honor driven marines, ready to go out and fight for the justice and glory of their civilization (Your lead singer, guitarists, and perhaps keyboard). Now send them into combat without guns. This essentially the same thing as a band without drums.

Of course, there are a few, rare exceptions to this analogy, such as guitar soloists and a select few bands. but, in reality, well over half of today's modern bands have a drummer in them, and boy, do they make a difference.

[RB_IcePh0enix]

It's really not an opinion if you think about it. A musician is obvious someone who makes music and drums are music, whether it's a hard or easy song. It's like discussing if electronica DJ's are musicians or not. Even though it's electronic music, it's still music. End of story.

[RB_Dreamscanner]

music is music
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[Moogle-master]

I beleive a real musician would see the beauty in all types of music, not just their own preferred music. Also having the natural gift to be able to pick up any instrument and to be able to play it without instruction.

If you play an instrument, no matter what it is. You are a musician. You have to know some theory behind the music to be a good musician and to able to understand the movement within a peice.

Oh, if that made any sense. ;_;