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Old 12-13-2017, 09:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Yeah Keep was amazing tbh.

Would like to play further, haven't had much time so I'm stuck on world 8 or 9 2 off on a ton of stages. My biggest 'issue' with the puzzle design I think is that the difficulty curve for some of the new mechanics is extremely harsh. I'm not sure if I'm just bad at some of the new stuff I've never seen (particularly the ice blocks) but some of those are so open ended I'm sitting there just guessing randomly and not even sure why the shortcuts that work are working.

Would have helped me build up to those with some more easier levels using those mechanics. Not sure what others think of it though.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Aye I need to work through the game to set records on the final levels before reach gets there


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Old 12-14-2017, 05:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
Yeah Keep was amazing tbh.

Would like to play further, haven't had much time so I'm stuck on world 8 or 9 2 off on a ton of stages. My biggest 'issue' with the puzzle design I think is that the difficulty curve for some of the new mechanics is extremely harsh. I'm not sure if I'm just bad at some of the new stuff I've never seen (particularly the ice blocks) but some of those are so open ended I'm sitting there just guessing randomly and not even sure why the shortcuts that work are working.

Would have helped me build up to those with some more easier levels using those mechanics. Not sure what others think of it though.
I remember having a LONG design discussion with stargroup about difficulty curve, when he was making his own Psychopath clone with idk someone else

One of the many conclusions we both came to is that most levels have way too much visual complexity. For example a 15x15 board is 225 disparate things your eyes and brain needs to process, it's a huge visual shock just when you load the level, or if you're not playing and you lean over and start spectating a friend playing the game. That initial shock alone turns a lot of people off puzzle games like this.

We wound up agreeing that anything but the absolutely most advanced levels can fit on like 8x8 or less. I remember stargroup had picked like 50 or so levels for his prototype that were mostly like 5x6 or 7x9 boards that were still relatively difficult.

Plus, even from a relatively experienced puzzle gamer's point of view I found that size more fun. Restarts were less punishing, solutions were usually limited to just 1 or 2 tricks and getting them was immediately rewarding; moving on to the next level is a much better feeling than going from 8 off to 6 off, for example. It felt like a more flowing and elegant game experience.

In short, this kind of game calls for way more smaller and easier levels than most tend to think. Part of the quality of the original Psychopath was just how easy it was before Link to the Past, which was usually everyone's first wall. Helped build familiarity and ease people into the game (and build exploitable bad habits! heh) Obviously there eventually needs to be harder levels and longer levels for variety, plus the fact larger boards opens the chance for many more false paths, but... I remember how fucking fiendishly difficult my custom level called Psycho was and that was only 15x15. (In fact I could never find the last 2-off trick someone else had found...)

Anyway rip stargroup


Hopefully this game lives up to my design expectations I'm pretty hyped to play it.
Maybe once finals finish (next week ;_ I can... start making custom levels again! hehe
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Old 12-16-2017, 03:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Filtering the excess of information in a large grid is like an orthogonal skill to being able to devise an actual solution. I think it's perfectly fine if the "catch" to solve the puzzle is easier compared to another small grid puzzle in the same point of progression. I feel the problem arises when the designer underestimates/ignores that form of difficulty due to not being able to experience it firsthand in their own puzzles.

I actually thought Short Circuit was cool although I'm a bit biased due to not being a stranger to parity problems. Keep was interesting but there is so little you can do that the solution becomes a bit too obvious. My favorite so far is Fool's Goal.

Currently sitting on entire world VIII cleared while missing Recall from VI and Stasis, China Shop, Musical Chairs, and Impact from VII. I personally found world VIII considerably easier than VII (even considering the puzzles I already solved).

On another note, is this supposed to happen (spoiler for Buddy System solution):



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Old 12-16-2017, 12:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

That would likely mean you found a shortcut I didnt find in testing.
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

I'm like 50 moves off on that level. I can't understand these blocks at all.

I'll see if I can reverse engineer a solution now. lol


Re: Hi19

Yeah, with the original psychopath design, huge levels aren't really a problem per se because the logical deduction is relatively constrained. Even the longest, most enigmatic labyrinths can be reduced to logical blocks that can be solved.

The added elements add a significant amount of complexity because many of them allow for much larger branching possibilities than the traditional block design. There's one level with the red circles where I can solve the puzzle 2 off in like 8 different ways and the logic between all of those solutions and the perfect solution is virtually identical.

I don't have a problem with this per se, just that the difficulty curve for this game seems far harsher for many of the new mechanics for this reason. At least to me. Others might feel differently. For the record, I never really played psychopath2 either so my imbalance with respect to certain mechanics could stem from that.

I also haven't really sunk many hours into this game yet so I've got to sit down and play it some more 8)
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Damn, world IX really picks up in difficulty.

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Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2 View Post
That would likely mean you found a shortcut I didnt find in testing.
Alright then, I was afraid it could be related to the breakthroughs as I haven't worked on those yet. Found a couple more sub-optimal requirements:

Spoiler for China shop solution:


Spoiler for Baby steps solution:


Spoiler for Passcode solution:
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:59 AM   #28
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Yeah, working on world 9 myself. It's tricky.

Sick optimizations btw. I just finished many of those levels myself today @ the step count the game recommended. They were fairly difficult as is. I wonder if their ordering is appropriate with the revised step count.

edit: Waka in World 9 is so random lol I solved it in 202 but surely there is a more optimal solution.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:13 AM   #29
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Alright, finished the main story and I'm a bit confused with what I'm supposed to do at Cruel Chamber in the Coping world. Up to that point I'm still missing: Musical chairs (world VII), Wiggle room, Cascade (world IX), Playrooms, Lockmess monster, Trash Heap and Bonefish (world X). Lockmess monster in particular is the first one I feel like I've already exhausted my options and got stuck with off by 2 solutions.

Waka really gives the impression that there's a better solution but after experimenting a bit it seems very few choices actually matter in the final move count.

Also got a couple more optimizations along the way.
Spoiler for Frigid Engine solution:


Spoiler for Jar of Nothing solution:


Spoiler for Six Bits solution:


Spoiler for Tetric solution:


I'm actually curious what the listed move count solution looks like for most of those because I'm finding those optimized ones as my first solution.
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

I'll give those a try today and let you know if I find original solutions.

Musical Chairs is infuriating. The solution is quite good, but the level is much much harder than where it's placed. Such a sigh of relief when I beat that thing.

edit: Here's buddy system as intended:


Six Bits intended:
(IMO even with the optimization this level could be moved down, it wasn't very hard)
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:10 PM   #31
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Goddamn, finally solved Musical Chairs and got the all stressful levels achievement. I agree it's pretty hard for the point it's presented although what really made me waste a lot of time was missing a very simple optimization after getting the core of the solution down.

Thanks for those! And yeah, in terms of plain puzzle without a gimmick/red herring Six Bits is way too easy for world X.

Time to test my luck on world XII.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

holy moly @AutotelicBrown

Really good finds -- especially China Shop, we all felt there was a 38 solution in there somewhere :/

I'll have an update ready to go by the time you read this with fixed solutions, as well as a small change to Cruel Chamber since it had some old colors.

Also swapped Musical Chairs and some other small stuff too. We didn't have the ability to swap levels because of how we built the game but we recently changed some of it and this swap was definitely overdue.

*another tester shaved 2 steps off of Moonbud and an additional 2 steps off Frigid Engine, down to 148, since I read your posts. This is in the update as well.

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Old 12-18-2017, 03:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Game is going to be absolutely savage with all of the steps updated.

In the meantime I'm 2 off'ing pretty much the entirety of what I have left of world 10. There's some real soul crushers in there. The good ol "Oh, yep that's it" to 2 off

Quote:
Lockmess monster in particular is the first one I feel like I've already exhausted my options and got stuck with off by 2 solutions.
Yeah...what the hell is up with this one? lol

First traditional level I can't solve. Was like two off third try and I've walked through each move and don't see any optimizations.

Must be blind. Old age
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:12 AM   #34
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

World XII is brutal damn. Barely managed to unlock world XIII and cleared its first level. Only glanced at the remaining ones and I'm already pleased with what I see, looking forward to attempt them later.

Lockmess monster still baffles me and I feel I'll be pretty mad once I realize what I'm missing.

Great to see quick updates, I'll have to revisit Moonbud and Frigid Engine then.

A couple more optimizations for good measure.
Spoiler for Magic Bullet solution:


Spoiler for Warehouse Duty solution:


Spoiler for Wellspring solution:


Spoiler for Four's a Crowd solution:


Edit: Moonbud was simple but still no idea about Frigid Engine.

Edit2: One more, spoiler for Karst solution:
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

I like the increased complexity with the additional blocks. Looking back at Psychopath 2, most of my preferred levels are on the smaller end (something like duke's Level B). Hopefully we'll get more small tough levels like that. Something like Bonefish - looks really simple. I was stuck at 110 for days - hardest level in the first 14 worlds imo.

Lockmess Monster has a really good two-cut, but definitely a facepalm moment when you do see it.
Looking forward to seeing what the final step counts for The Beast's Belly and Chaos Machine are.
PP1 vets should like world 13.

Do we have an ETA on a level editor?
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Old 12-19-2017, 06:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Okay exams done.

Will get game by the end of this week probably.

ETA on a level editor? lol
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

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Lockmess Monster has a really good two-cut, but definitely a facepalm moment when you do see it.
Finally solved it and can confirm. I'm particularly mad because I toyed with the right idea early on but forgot a crucial detail.

Bonefish is indeed deceptively hard, have yet to solve that one.

Slowly progressing through world XIII - Four's a Crowd, Hallways, Circuit Board, and Nexus down - and surely, making things harder for everyone!

Optimized solution for Circuit Board:


Optimized solution for Nexus (probably improvable if I could keep track of what I'm doing):
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:26 AM   #38
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Still curious about Lockmess monster. Closing down the office for Christmas next week so I should have time to really sink my teeth into some of these harder puzzles. In the meantime Mr. Brown here appears to be breaking the game, lol @ 10 off on one of those puzzles. I'm sure I'll enjoy that one when I get there now D:

Bonefish is indeed brutal. I got fairly close to a solution early on and now everything I try is a hot mess and not even close. Another one in w10 was driving me similarly crazy and involved 3 ice blocks and an orange movable piece. I'd like to talk to whoever forgot the other like 10 moves needed there thank you.

Edit: W12 Orchid, Holy shit Bravo.

W12 Wellspring 183. I'm reasonably certain this is optimal but testing for 181 before I send solution.

**Yep Wellspring 181 and I'm not convinced this is optimal either so I'll be back if I hit 179.
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Old 12-21-2017, 03:04 AM   #39
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Nice catch, managed to find 181 as well but I don't think it's improvable from there.

Orchid is indeed very cool, haven't revisited it yet but I'm at +12 steps from solution. Got down three more from world XIII (Into the Depths, Crawl Space and Amok), those traditional levels are so pleasant to work on.

For now I'm having a lot of trouble with some escort missions: Trash Heap on X, Bunker Buster and Spelunking on XII. Up to world XII I'm only missing those, Bonefish and Orchid.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:37 AM   #40
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Default Re: PATHOS - A puzzle game like Psychopath

Yeah I think 181 is the ticket, there are two ways to do it but I don't think any other iterations yield a 179. I'll check it again when I get time but I'll probably just get back to working on world 10 and 12. I've finished pretty much everything else but have a lot of 2 off in world 10 and haven't even touched much of 12 (spent all my time on Orchid).
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