Old 06-23-2016, 02:09 AM   #221
Rojaf
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Default Re: orlando shooting

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Originally Posted by Kaj3 View Post
Lol, this is turning into Muslim apologetics 101 now.
because apparently everyone in a group has to answer for the worst part now.


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No, don't bring up Christianity when it has no relevance to the discussion. The people that bring up Christianity in these discussions tend to be uneasy when it comes to criticizing Islam and try to desperately to draw false equations to which they inevitably fail.
christianity stops being relevant when christians stop trying to say that islam is the problem. both religions are shit, and saying that one is and the other isnt, or when christians try to take the high road after a mass shooting like this is super disingenuous, because their religion is also responsible for large numbers of LGBT deaths .


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Which history am I denying? I am not denying that the Iraq invasion happened, but it's not the direct cause of Islamic terrorism.
you're right. it's just the direct cause of isis.

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Islamic terrorism and barbarism has existed for the last a thousand a years or so preceding the existence of the United States and other Western countries.
yep. nice work stating the obvious. lets not mention the thousand or so years of barbarism and terrorism belonging to Christianity. again, selective memory.

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Plus, Islamism is a global phenomenon, spanning to regions outside of US influence.
again true, but has absolutely no bearing on the origin of isis.

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For example, what does the massacre of over 200 french citizens in Paris that occurred last year have to do with US foreign policy? This is fucking ridiculous.
well it all starts in 2003 when george bush decided to invade iraq. the US went into iraq, destabilized the country and a bunch of small terrorist organizations in iraq decided to join al qaeda to fight the americans. one of these was the organization that would later come to be known as isis. in 2006 we managed to kill their leader zarqawi, and in response they merged with several other groups to form ISI, a precursor to isis (the second s stands for syria so obviously gotta wait until 2011) you know what? just read it yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...and_the_Levant

what motivated the paris attacks? well this is what isis claims motivated them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Chammal


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Uhh, you haven't demonstrated that those LGBT deaths are due to religion. The orlando shooter clearly killed gay people for religious reasons.
homophobia doesnt come from nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The main opponents of the advances of the gay rights movement in Brazil have generally been conservatives. Religion is the most cited reason for opposing gay rights. Regionally, opposition to the gay rights movement has been strongest in rural interior regions.

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I get it. History is complex. But what the fuck does any of that have to do with modern-day Islamic barbarism? What is the direct cause of modern day Islamic barbarism? US Foreign Policy? Western Imperialism? Once again reaching to the annals of history to obfuscate the issue. Fascinating.
there are many causes. deciding that there can be only one is some thunderdome bullshit. you bring up the ottoman empire???? and then accuse me of reaching into the annals of history to obfuscate. yes, the ottoman empire was islamic. and the byzantine empire was christian, and the holy roman empire was.. take a wild guess.


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You're speaking a lot of gibberish here. What exactly are their motivations rooted in? They have theological grievances. They despise western culture because it's antithetical to their religion. Also, why do you think there is a divide between Shia and Sunni Muslims? The same reason why there is a divide between the many thousands of Christian Denominations. However, Christians don't murder Christians of other denominations. and anti-LGBT terror in America as in instigated by Christians? Are you serious? Now, you're just blowing shit out of proportion.
remember when i mentioned the IRA? one group aligned with one religion wanting to form their own state committing terror against the people of the other group. except in that case there arent like 3 wars already going on in the region.


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One Muslim committed the same amount of supposed Christian "LGBT terror" as 35% of the total in the last 8 years in just one night. That's fucking embarrassing.
it would be 25% if the picture i posted was LGBT and not just trans, but i'm starting to expect those kinds of mistakes from you. and that's only in the USA. but you dont like it when we only use one region right? you were getting all mad earlier when i was doing that, so you should probably modify that to be 2%. which is still wrong, because again you're comparing LGBT deaths in orlando to just trans deaths worldwide, but for the sake of argument i'll go with it. 2% would still be really, really bad for one event. hey, look. you dont need to artificially inflate statistics for them to support your argument.


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I did state that it matters, but not just the history you're trying to bring into this. What do you think has more relevance to modern day Islamism: Islamic imperialism and Muslim empires such as the Ottoman Empire or US foreign policy and the history of western imperialism?
uhhhh isis in particular? the war in iraq. the war in iraq has way way more to do with isis than the ottoman empire.

even if you blame the ottoman empire (which i dont) where do you think the ottoman empire came from? it was a product of the byzantine empire. one empire systematically replacing another, kind of the story of most of history.

islamic terror in general? hmm probably british colonialism, followed by the creation of israel after world war two, and the cold war where the united states and russia used the countries in the middle east as surrogate fighters, followed by the US involvement in the first gulf war, and finally terrible decision making by starting a war in iraq. does that about cover it?


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Not doubting that there are other factors, but the primary motive behind Islamic terror is Islam. Islam is in the title after all.
when it comes to terror perpetrated against the outside world, yes, absolutely. when it comes to terrorism between shia and sunni it is just not that simple.


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Simplistic because I don't want to blame Islamism on US foreign policy? This is fucking bonkers.
you're putting words in my mouth again. you're the one saying that islamic terror is just because of islam. my argument is that there are many factors of which islam is just one.

also i think if you replace islam with another religion and replay the events of the last 100 years you're going to get more of a similar response to today than you would if you left islam in place with the US, Russia, etc, being isolationists.


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The study you're basing this on is heavily flawed. Do you honestly believe those statistics for Africa are valid? Only 10 murders of LGBT people in hate crimes over the last 8 years?
again, try reading. those are trans and gender diverse people. just the T in LGBT.

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We're talking about the most anti-gay region in the world, but the data paints the picture as if it's not. Maybe I am misunderstanding something.
you are.


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Nope, you're strawmanning me.
it's clear that you dont know what this means.

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Look at my graph again. In the more nuanced graph, I specifically broke it down by specific Muslim categories: Islamists, Muslim nationalists, and the PKK. Over 99% of deaths from terrorism are caused by Muslims, but 85-90% of terrorist deaths are caused by Islamist groups, such as ISIS, Boko Harem, Al Shabab, and so forth.
yes, and when isis kills other muslims in iraq, it is not motivated by religion so much as tribalism.


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In what sense? What better identifier do we have for them? You're an anti-labelist or something? Labels exist for a reason. Generalizations exist for a reason. They help us better understand the world around us.
labels are fine, as long as you dont stop there. my issue is with your inability to look beyond the initial labeling, not with the labeling itself.

Last edited by Rojaf; 06-23-2016 at 02:12 AM..
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:48 AM   #222
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Default Re: orlando shooting

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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
With all of this information, what's the prescription for the future?
be kind to the muslims you know since they're human beings
be critical of islam since it's an abomination of a cult

let the middle east destroy themselves

Last edited by choof; 06-23-2016 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:25 AM   #223
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Default Re: orlando shooting

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Originally Posted by Kaj3 View Post
LOL. This is the fucking grandaddy of weak strawman arguments among Muslim apologetics 101:
or it could just be common sense.

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Islam is the way way way bigger problem than Christianity, and they can take the high road all day. I prefer Christians over Muslims because one demographic is preferable to humanity over the other based on what group is doing what more frequently in the name of their religion.
all throughout history christians and muslims have taken turns being worse for humanity. there is nothing about what christianity is doing for humanity at the moment that leads me to believe they are done taking their turn, even if in the last 20-30 years islam has pulled ahead.


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And you can say Christians are responsible for a larger number of LGBT deaths based on your data, although the numbers in Africa are highly questionable(despite it being limited to trans and gender diverse individuals), but not the religion itself. Have any numbers on anti-gay murders in particular in the world?
i posted a bunch of links before about LGBT deaths in countries in south america.

[/quote] I say not the religion itself for a multitude of reasons: Christianity doesn't promote death for gays or any LGBT people like Sharia law does,[/quote]

again, you're focused on policy, i'm focused on the actual result of the religion and its influence on culture.


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South America already has a relatively high murder rate and a widespread culture of machismo,
where do you think this comes from?

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which is anti-gay, trans, gender diverse, or whatever wonky title you want to come up with, the disparity in murders of LGBT people between Brazil and the USA is large despite having a similar percentage of Christians in their countries.
you realize that this supports my argument right? remember, the whole "less of a difference between christianity and islam outside of the first world". yeah.


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However, you will have many Christian preachers saying it's an abomination or people from the WBC saying ***s will burn in hell, but this is not equivalent to death for gays
[youtube]w83kIAfuKoE[/quote]

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/christian_pastor_says_gays_worthy_of_death_at_conference_with_3_gop_presidential_candidates

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

http://shoebat.com/2016/06/10/major-catholic-priest-declares-that-homosexuals-are-worthy-of-death/

Quote:
Originally Posted by WBC
Sodomites are wicked & sinners before the Lord exceedingly (Gen.13:13), are violent & doom nations (Gen. 19:1-25; Jgs. 19), are abominable to God (Lev. 18:22), are worthy of death for their vile sex practices (Lev. 20:13; Rom. 1:32),

so you are wrong. just completely wrong. (oh btw all those links were only from america and italy. nothing outside the first world. in case you were interested.


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Nope Islam is:
the fact that you base your geopolitical opinions on what some rando 20 year old on youtube says makes a lot of sense given your arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama%2...whid_wal-Jihad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzim...ad_al-Rafidayn

do some reading. make some real connections between facts.



when did i mention the crusades? oh, right, never.

good thing the byzantine empire began before any of the shit on that list. good try. try again.


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This is retarded. Do you know what Islamism is? Are you claiming that ISIS is not an Islamist terrorist group? Good lord:
oh good, more 20 year old youtuber instead of any kind of factual analysis. hooray. also maybe give the derogatory language a break, yeah?

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Those terrorist groups existed before we decided to invade Iraq,
what was isis, sorry, JTJ's membership like before the iraq war? what was the state of their declared caliphate? where did they operate? what terrorism were they responsible for?

what happened after the iraq war?

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which was a country essentially held in a hostage crisis by Saddam Hussein, one of the cruelest dictators in history.
got one part right.


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So your point is moot. Those groups were bound to have an uprising whether we liberated them from that hostage crisis or not because it has
nothing to do with US foreign policy.
incorrect in every way.

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It has do to with Islamism,
it does have to do with islamism. absolutely.

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which is something that has been occurring for the last 1000 years. But keep blaming all the problems in the world on Murica,
keep ignoring facts and insisting on the most simplistic explanation possible.

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since it's so convenient.
i find facts very convenient.

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Don't talk about those brown people, but those nasty white imperialists that decided to pillage Iraq!
or talk about both, the way that they affect each other and end up with a complex view of the world that is closer to truth. or we could just view everything as black and white, make terrible short sighted decisions and make things worse for everyone in the long run!

hooray for an overly simplistic worldview!

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Homophobia in humans may actually be as natural as homosexuality, but that's beyond the point.
no that's actually part of the point, if you can actually make that point, that is.


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Opposing gay rights does not equal killing LGBT people, supporting the killing of LGBT people, or supporting the death of LGBT people.
unfortunately opposing gay rights is just the public face of christanity. well, most christianity. some christian ministers preach that gays should be killed (see above) but we're not for judging an entire religion based on the words of a few are we?


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No, it's just that the other factors are considerably insignificant. I bring up the ottoman empire because it's relevant to Islam and Islamism, Yes, you can bring up the byzantine empire or the crusades, or whatever to try to draw a false equation between Christianity and Islam. But one group is still trying to install some type of caliphate, similar to its Islamist predecessors and the other has moved past its barbarous history and has been heavily secularized. How can you not grasp this difference? One group is still living in the middle ages, while the other isn't. They are in two separate universes.
they are in two seperate worlds, not universes. ie first world vs third world.

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Death count from IRA in the last couple years please. The IRA isn't relevant.
how do you still not understand that i'm not bringing up the IRA because they are killing people now, but because there are parallels between them and what is happening in the middle east right now. are you just skimming? do you see the word IRA and instead of reading and processing you just yell IRRELEVANT and move on?

seriously, it's becoming very, very clear that your reading comprehension level is minuscule. that or you dont actually want to read what i'm saying becasue either it would make you have to change your opinion or perhaps you just dont have the capacity for anything resembling complex thought. not that the things i've been saying are that complex.

please read. read and then respond to the things i write instead of picking a single word and responding to that one word in a way that makes it clear you either arent reading or arent comprehending. please dear god.

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I was only using the United States because the murder happened in the United states. and I meant 35% because, 50 is 35% of 141, but if you want to add the 50 to the 141 and determine the ratio afterwards, then it would be 26%. Fair enough.
but again those were just trans deaths that you were comparing the orlando massacre to, which again, implies that you make decisions in your head before actually reading things. like at all.


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Nope, the actions of Isis have to do with the doctrine of Islam and Islamism more than anything else.
wrong.

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I bring up the ottoman empire because their actions are consistent with modern day Islamists, to demonstrate that Islamism isn't a new thing, and that Islamic conquest has persisted for the last a thousand years or so.
islamism isnt a new thing. nothing is a new thing, other than like technology. just because history is cyclical doesnt mean that it is inevitable. also cycles end up happening because EVERYONE ends up repeating their behavior, not just one group.

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LOL. I cannot believe you just tried to shift the blame to such a silly chain of events on Islamic terror.
the problem here is your mindset. instead of seeing causes, you only see blame. you are focused on finding the ONE THING to blame, instead of looking at the many root causes. this is my entire problem with your argument, and you as a person.

things are way more complex than that.

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Are you a conspiracy theorist or something or are you just denying all agency from Muslims?
no and no. if you think that i am arguing anything close to that, you clearly havent been reading anything i've been writing, but i guess that's been clear for some time now.


Quote:
Are you just going to deny everything that the Islamists themselves state? Watch these two videos, one of which adlp has already posted, and the second one which applies to people like you that try to shift the blame of Islamic terrorism to anything but Islam:


again with blame. you know what islamic extremests do? they blame the west for everything. it's stupid, shortsighted, and harmful when they do it, and it's stupid, shortsighted, and harmful when people like you do it.

lets blame all of islam for terror. that probably wont end up backfiring at all.


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Translation to it just not being that simple: Western imperialism, nuclear bombs, US Foreign policy
Translation: i never learned to read


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Nope, now you're putting words in my mouth. It's obvious that there are other factors, but the predominant factor is clearly Islam, so much so that to discuss the other factors instead of Islam derails the conservation.
yeah lets ignore facts since you have decided that they aren't relevant because it gets in the way of your blame game.


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So replace Islam with Jainism and we will see the same shit based on the same turn of events?
no, but replace it with christianity, hinduism, buddhism, or any other major religion. you can stop bringing up jainism now btw. or not. TBH i'm loving the way that you keep telling me that i'm falsely equating islam and christianity and then CONTINUALLY BRING UP JAINISM when faced with the idea that violence is not unique to islam.

what you are doing, and have been doing almost non stop is called cherry picking.

Quote:
Once again, you're demonstrating a lack of understanding of the fact that Islam is a very separate belief system from the other religions.
when it comes to world consequences, you have only proven that it is separate from Jainism. keep doing that, BTW, since it really helps your argument.

Quote:
Bad ideas inspire certain actions. The ideas of Jainism inspire nonviolence to all around them, and the ideas of Islam inspire Jihadists to slay all the infidels wherever they find them.
cool, you kept doing it. also this is why every muslim i know wants to kill me. oh wait, just the radical ones. maybe we should consider all the forces that led to their radicalization... oh wait no just islam. because obviously that's way easier, requires less thought, and avoids the possibility of you having change any of your beliefs and/or decisions in life.

Quote:
Okay, any stats on anti-gay murders then? And if there's such a huge discrepancy in the terms, why bring this in a discussion on anti-gay murders, particularly anti-gay terrorism?
it was the only chart i could find, which is why i supplemented it with links to papers that had total LGBT murder statistics. but you clearly didnt click them so okay yeah my fault i didnt push your hand down on the mouse button.

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Okay, the data includes only trans and gender diverse people, but what about gay people? I am genuinely curious.
just go back to my post and click away.


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Nope, you misrepresented my position. this is what you said:


I never equated ALL Muslim on Muslim terrorism with Islamic terrorism; however, most Muslim on Muslim terrorism is a result of Islamic terrorism.
the conflict between shia and sunni stems not from WHAT the religion should be, but WHO should lead it. it is quite literally a tribal dispute that has lasted for centuries.


Quote:
All religions are rooted in tribalism to a certain extent, but when Muslims kill other Muslims, it's mostly because the other Muslims aren't Muslim enough, so to speak, which is a religious phenomenon. You're just reaching so hard that it's embarrassing now.
the conflict between shia and sunni stems not from WHAT the religion should be, but WHO should lead it. it is quite literally a tribal dispute that has lasted for centuries.

yeah i copy/pasted because i figure that increases the odds that you'll actually read it/comprehend it.
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:31 AM   #224
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Default Re: orlando shooting

It's true because it's common sense

flawless.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:46 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill View Post
It's true because it's common sense

flawless.
somehow I don't think fojar was trying to pass that off as a formal proof.

I also don't see where you've made any long-winded posts explaining your thinking beyond the surface of what you think, so this is a weird post
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:08 PM   #226
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never brought up the crusades, you continue to say that i did. i brought up the byzantine empire which predates anything you have mentioned about muslims probably because it predates the birth of muhammad by 200 years or so.

you still cant realize that when i compare muslim on muslim terror to the IRA it's to say that it's NOT because of religion. not trying to say that christians are terrorists, i'm saying the opposite. just because the IRA had a religious affiliation doesnt mean that their terror was inspired by religion. it was tribal. which is what muslim on muslim violence is, which is what makes up the bulk of terrorism related deaths.

you say that third world christian countries dont have sharia law, but uganda tried to pass a death for gays law and actually passed a life in prison for gays law, that was only thrown out on a technicality. well done christianity.

not to mention that LGBT deaths in south america are rampant. i'm not linking again because you wont read the links anyways. basically if there isn't a pretty picture you'll just ignore it. if you want to, just go back and find the links i posted before. but you wont. so oh well.

god damn this is getting me fumed i dont know if there's a language barrier or if you're just a fucking moron but you continue to strawman instead of responding to the things i actually say.

it's very, very easy to find buddhist, jewish, and hindu terror. like, ridiculously easy, but i'm done googling for you. you dont even read the things i say or link to anyways. live in ignorance, it seems that you are comfortable there already.

you say christians dont preach death, i prove you wrong in two seconds. but then it's that *not all* christians preach death but *some* muslims do so yeah one religion is way better.

way way better.

never tried to take away agency. individuals all make decisions on their own. not sure what that has to do with the fact that ISIS would not exist without the war in Iraq.

the split between shia and sunni was about who should lead after muhammad died. the split was along family lines. about as tribal as it gets. yes, it had to do with religion, in that they were picking who should be the leader next. had nothing to do with any beliefs other than who should be the leader, and they've been fighting ever since.

so in summation: strawmanning is perfectly fine for you to do, but when i do it in response you get real, real salty. and then you continue to strawman me, over and over. and over. and over.

maybe middleasterners hate the west because we spent half a century fighting our wars in their countries with their citizens? nah, it's just islam obviously.

your response to "things are complicated" is a bunch of oversimplifications of any argument i've made and several things i havent said. great work there bud.

it's clear that you've made up your mind, you've chosen to see the world the same way that islamic terrorists do. they're bad, i'm good. i could never do bad because i'm good and they're bad. some are bad, all are bad, only i and people like me are good. enjoy the company.

since you dont actually read anything i've said, and i'm just going to go ahead and assume that you will continue to read maybe one word, interpret that word however you'd like and then strawman away.

it would be one thing if we simply disagreed, i would probably continue to argue until we came to some kind of conclusion, but when you completely ignore the words i'm writing and respond to some kind of delusional version of them, i start to get frustrated.

imagine if i had responded to everything you posted with this:



because that's basically all you've done this entire time. so i'm done.

hopefully someday you can look back at this and feel really stupid.
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:19 PM   #227
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Default Re: orlando shooting

and just to be clear, i'm not just getting mad and taking my ball home.


to people other than kaj:
if he ever demonstrates that he has actually read the things i've written and responds to them in a logical way without strawmanning, send me a PM and i'll come back and respond.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:13 AM   #228
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still waiting for an islamic vn
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:26 AM   #229
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p much on it
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:18 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by dAnceguy117 View Post
I also don't see where you've made any long-winded posts explaining your thinking beyond the surface of what you think, so this is a weird post
I don't need a wall of text to explain myself.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:36 AM   #231
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Default Re: orlando shooting

except a handful of your posts ITT were obfuscated by sarcasm until someone asked what you were trying to say

and then you singled out one line of a many-paragraph post for being terse. thats all I'm getting at.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:15 PM   #232
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ok
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Originally Posted by bluguerilla
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. ZOMG I HAD TO QUIT OUT TERRIBLE
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