Old 05-6-2016, 12:00 PM   #1
Technoid
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Default Who's fault would it be?

This is something that tends to trip me up, knowing who's guilty of what and who's fault it is that something happened. Let's see if I can explain...

Let's say you know someone who's going to drive while he's drunk tonight, and has a history of doing so. He's in another city, and you really don't like the guy and don't want to call the police and get involved in yet another one of his messes. So he drives when he's drunk, and wrecks and kills somebody else. If you had just called the police, he wouldn't have wrecked and the other guy would still be alive. Is that your fault?

If you called the police, would you just be saving him from himself again, when you should just let him drown and learn from his own mistakes? I'm not sure if you would in this specific example, but let's say if you had gotten involved you would've just been in as much of a mess as him. Is it then reasonable to have not called the police, which then caused the other guy's death? You didn't drive the car yourself, you didn't put a gun to the other guy's head and shoot him. But if you had simply called the police, the other guy would still be alive. How would you like it if someone let some guy crash into you and kill your whole family just because he didn't want to get involved in the drunk's problems?
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Old 05-6-2016, 12:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

Call the police in every instance. Otherwise, I think there would be a lot of guilt if you could have done something. Doesn't it seem selfish to think that getting in trouble takes precedence over someone else's life?
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Old 05-6-2016, 12:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

snitches ITT

live and let live, or in this case, die. are you guys both women? just curious..



calling the police ALWAYS creates more problems. grow some balls and handle things on your own
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Old 05-6-2016, 12:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

Regardless if the authorities are involved... Both parties should be at fault.
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

if I'm watching a mountain lion stalk an elk and I dont do anything to stop the mountain lion, is it my fault that the mountain lion attacked the elk?

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Old 05-6-2016, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

That's is completely different and you know that. Survival versus potentially harming people because you cannot call a fucking taxi is completely different.

If I let a mountain lion attack the elk, he gets to eat and live. If I let my drunk ass friend drive without at least offering some sort of consequence, then he potentially harms anybody including himself.
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

I say mind your own business. tell your friend off or offer to drive him home. you never call the cops on somebody "for their own good". thats how situations escalate. hundreds of people have died because police got involved in situations they didnt need to be involved in. calling the cops on somebody you know for driving drunk is underhanded and vengeful. I dont get people with that kind of mentality
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

You might want to look up case law on this topic as I'm sure there are many similar cases out there but basically:

If you knowingly allow someone who is intoxicated to drive then there is definitely some negligence on your part. The fact that you are in another city etc. makes no difference, if there are text messages, phone calls, emails or otherwise showing you knew this person would drive drunk then that doesn't look good on you although it is a weak defense for the drunk driver.

Other third parties could get dragged in of course if it is a large litigated claim; the host(s) of the party or owner of the establishment that this person was at beforehand (who supplied the drinks?), the other party who was hurt even depending on the circumstances.


tl;dr if someone is planning on driving drunk you should call the police or at the very least simply tell them not to do it if you are not physically there to stop them, then you're fine. Regardless of legal shit you don't want to run the risk of your friend or someone else losing their life though.

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Old 05-6-2016, 01:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

there was a case where some dumb lady tried to sue a bar for serving her drinks before a dui and the case was dropped because that's completely ridiculous
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

I keep completely disregarding the fact that the police is being called, so I guess my arguments are null.
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

@Jiz It actually isn't ridiculous, bars have huge liability exposure and have had to pay millions in cases. Not hard to find those ones.

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Old 05-6-2016, 01:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

I actually know of a few bars downtown in my area, who would tag people's cars for the cops to grab them if they're driving intoxicated.
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Old 05-6-2016, 01:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

so by this logic, we are all complicit in the exploitation of african miners that work to mine the metals used in our phones and computers. we should all be tried for war crimes because we continue to elect presidents who completely ignore the geneva conventions. why is it that we are worried about drunk drivers when we are at fault for the degradation of humanity and the environment? we cant just call the cops on the leaders of the industries that are destroying man so we fight amongst ourselves and call the cops on each other. I honestly couldnt care less about drunk driving. idiots will exist no matter where you go and the exact when and where of accidents is hard to predict. I think if we are worried about fault, we should look at the bigger issues affecting the world
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Old 05-6-2016, 07:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

Is your question about the morality of the situation or if someone is legally at fault?

"If you called the police, would you just be saving him from himself again, when you should just let him drown and learn from his own mistakes?"

You wouldn't just be saving him from himself again, you'd be saving the other person. And besides, there's no indication that him getting in this accident would make him learn from his mistakes. Imprisonment, loss of license, and or psychological rehabilitation could be just as or more useful by informing the police and don't entail the certain loss of life. And it's axiomatically better to save the life of an innocent person (the stranger on the road who dies) than that of the guilty person (your friend who drives drunk).

I don't understand the other hypothetical. You're saying that if you report him to the police, you get punished as if you drove drunk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -JiZ53- View Post
if I'm watching a mountain lion stalk an elk and I dont do anything to stop the mountain lion, is it my fault that the mountain lion attacked the elk?
No, but comparing humans killing humans to animals hunting animals is incredibly stupid for several reasons.

Mountain lions hunt elk to survive, but human beings don't drive drunk to survive, and don't need to kill another human while doing so.
Mountain lions have no critical thinking in their actions as humans are and aren't morally accountable for anything.

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Old 05-6-2016, 07:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -JiZ53- View Post
so by this logic, we are all complicit in the exploitation of african miners that work to mine the metals used in our phones and computers.
actually you are correct, we are all complicit; the fact that we as a global society choose to do nothing about it is irrelevant

you're making the logical error of conflating a failure of responsibility with a criminal conviction

most of the planet's first world population could be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity given that we are directly funding third world dictatorships and oppression of the respective populations through taxes/foreign aid, but the reality of the world is everyone suffers everywhere and we could all do something about it but we don't because it's inconvenient for us

so the real question op has to ask themself isn't who is at fault but which option is more convenient for their life

ps. humanity will be held responsible for slowly diminishing the earth as a suitable living environment, you know, because, eventually, we'll no longer have a suitable living environment

it's one of the few examples in the universe where retribution is inexorably tied to the crime

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Old 05-6-2016, 07:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?



@OP:
That is some logical fallacy level stuff.

I deal with the similar stuff all the time at mine & my brother's apartment. He doesn't do dishes, he doesn't clean up after himself, and doesn't do any chores around the house, when he's supposed to. I end up having to cover for him, but what would happen if I didn't? Dishes would pile up, the apartment would become a mess, a cat would die because it's not getting fed, a pile of garbage would pile up at the door. And, I've talked with him before about it, in one ear and out the other. So who's to blame?

In my personal opinion, it's my brother's for not stepping up to the tasks and getting them done, and it's also mine for not drawing lines in the sand and create a bigger fuss on it.

Expanding on what mina said, I know the right thing to do is to make a bigger fuss about it and put him in line, but I know my brother has anger management issues to the point where it's abusive, and right now, the option of covering for him is more convenient for my life right now as I find a way to separate us down the road.
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Old 05-7-2016, 12:13 AM   #17
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

I just used drunk driving as an example, FYI the exact thing that's going on is someone I know doesn't really know how to drive, and he is around people who probably don't know how to drive well, "maybe" teaching him to drive, and he has a car, apparently has no license, the car's insurance is in someone else's name, I don't know what's going on with the car's plates. He recently drove alone, apparently not a very far distance. He's very careless, he's probably going to do that more often. I'm just wondering, if he wrecks and kills someone, is that on me, morally, because I didn't do anything to stop him? He doesn't listen to me, he's in another city now, so I couldn't just tell him to stop. Should I call the police? I don't know what the best course of action would be.

I guess my other thing, ilikexd, was a bad example. But like, not related to my current situation, if trying to help him would just pull me down too, but not helping wouldn't really cost anyone else their life, should I try to help or not? I tend to get selfish and just think that I didn't chose to live that way, so I shouldn't let anyone who has chosen to ruin their life ruin my own.

But what if not helping could potentially hurt, or even kill, someone else?

@gold stinger: Just a suggestion, but maybe it would help to make it inconvenient for him to leave a mess. Doesn't do the dishes? Pile them on his bed. Trash? Same thing. Nothing off your back, and then he has to clean it up.

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Old 05-8-2016, 11:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

the people who enforce and create the laws dont abide by them, so why should we make a big deal out of breaking the law? we shouldnt base our sense of morality on the law alone.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

I'm not talking about the law. Just using it to prevent a possible accident.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who's fault would it be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
you're making the logical error of conflating a failure of responsibility with a criminal conviction
I think this is the best answer in the thread. By separating these two concepts, you can better understand the underlying concepts and reach non-conflicting conclusions.

Even discounting that, however, the question of responsibility could still be debatable based on the context. If he's the kind of person that you cannot stop without excess interference in his personal life, it's understandable that someone would choose to not take any action. Let's say you did manage to stop him, but now you're in trouble for meddling in other people's personal affairs. At the end of the day, it bites back at you and there's no saying whether or not you actually did protect anyone. It may have done more harm than good by inconveniencing you.

Here's a thought experiment:
If someone handed you a small remote and told you not to press the button as it would kill someone, are you guilty of murder if you hit the button and it happened to directly result in someone's death?
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