On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

[Hakulyte]

The question is why the historic value of these files is higher than the judging value from getting them in-game. It's creating unnecessary ambiguity and goes against the idea of getting quality files in-game. It's just a huge slap in the simfiles judge team. It's not only CP but also Revo, RATO, For FFR, SoSSG etc. etc. There's a reason why they don't accept 500 bpm 16th jacks or 800 bpm 16th one hand trills or completely off-sync songs. There's conditions that need to be met and these files are clearly not meeting them.

As for DS etc. , you could just add code in-game where if you hit a 0-framer it triggers a miss. (Unless that's possible to do while vibrating)

[DossarLX ODI]

To elaborate further with an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-01Tmnayts

Skip to 1:27 in that video. He starts the 64th wall with half a lifebar. He gains some life, but then at 1:30 notice how he dips. Vibrating at very high speeds, especially if it's note a single-column jackhammer, cannot be controlled very well.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

You can change positions to improve how you control one handed trills as well as changing key setups etc. but vibrating is a one-directional jackhammer motion.

Wristjacking is also a controlled motion because it's at a speed where you can try changing your hand positioning. But vibrating is too fast. The higher the speed, the more control is lost and it's exponential.

The point that I was eluding alluding to personally is similar but not quite the same as this: one-handed trilling is an even motion (one finger/other finger/one finger/other finger) that can be done very consistently -- players have differing striking points, pressures, and heights (above the keys before striking), but in the end, each player does their motion the same way for a given speed. If the speed goes up, the motion is modified slightly (differing hand placement/pressure) but is still executed the same by string with one finger, than the other, and whatnot.

Vibrating is simply a release of tension; the recoil from a key strike will change a number of times, and the location/pressure of the strike will vary wildly. I also say this with some vibrating capability, as my right hand can vibrate around 190-200 BPM.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

To elaborate further with an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-01Tmnayts

Skip to 1:27 in that video. He starts the 64th wall with half a lifebar. He gains some life, but then at 1:30 notice how he dips. Vibrating at very high speeds, especially if it's note a single-column jackhammer, cannot be controlled very well.

I still don't get the "cannot be controlled very well" argument. If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to do the whole wall ? I mean, the equation is like this: Perfectly responsive keyboard + vibrating skills - Lack of control = Score, and you're basically saying that "lack of control" can't be improved, like setting a limit to everybody because it hasn't been done yet. If you proove me that the human body isn't capable of such a thing in any way, then I'll accept your argument. But until that, you can always get better control.

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

I still don't get the "cannot be controlled very well" argument. If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to to the whole wall ? I mean, the equation is like this: Perfectly responsive keyboard + vibrating skills - Lack of control = Score, and you're basically saying that "lack of control" can't be improved, like setting a limit to everybody because it hasn't been done yet. If you proove me that the human body isn't capable of such a thing in any way, then I'll accept your argument. But until that, you can always get better control.

"sky is the limit" attitude is nice, bro, but come on.

[DossarLX ODI]

What Halogen said is also right, vibrating at high speeds has varying pressures on the keys. For slower jacks you can tap harder and near the center of the key frequently since it's at a manageable speed. However with fast vibrating speeds the location the key is hit can't be controlled properly and you may not even tap hard enough for the hits to register (this and hands locking up explain the missdips you see in vibrating videos).

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

"sky is the limit" attitude is nice, bro, but come on.

Well, yes. Srsly. The Others 95% or something is that high if you compare it to Vertex Beta AAA which was prolly top tier years ago.

PS: It's only my way of thinking; if you dont proove me clearly that I can't achieve something, I'll still aim for it.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to do the whole wall ?

That's not how probability works. It's like saying that because I AAA'd every DP isolation file I should have gotten an AAA on it easily and ages ago when I got 8-0-0-1.

Flip a fair coin 20 times in a row. From what you worded, it's like you are proposing that if you can get heads 15 times in a row, you can get heads 20 times in a row. Yes, it is possible to "improve how many heads you get", but there are 2^20 = 1048576 possible outcomes and it's not going to be consistent.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

The point that I was eluding to personally is similar but not quite the same as this: one-handed trilling is an even motion (one finger/other finger/one finger/other finger) that can be done very consistently -- players have differing striking points, pressures, and heights (above the keys before striking), but in the end, each player does their motion the same way for a given speed. If the speed goes up, the motion is modified slightly (differing hand placement/pressure) but is still executed the same by string with one finger, than the other, and whatnot.

Vibrating is simply a release of tension; the recoil from a key strike will change a number of times, and the location/pressure of the strike will vary wildly. I also say this with some vibrating capability, as my right hand can vibrate around 190-200 BPM.

Alluding <_<

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

That's not how probability works. It's like saying that because I AAA'd every DP isolation file I should have gotten an AAA on it easily and ages ago when I got 8-0-0-1.

Flip a fair coin 20 times in a row. From what you worded, it's like you are proposing that if you can get heads 15 times in a row, you can get heads 20 times in a row. Yes, it is possible to "improve how many heads you get", but there are 2^20 = 1048576 possible outcomes and it's not going to be consistent.

Huh... Wat. ok lemme use an example as bad: why do you not fail to AAA excite bike once every 2 runs ? Because it's skills not luck lmao, you got enough control to be consistent on it. You are one of the people in this game who believes way too much in luck to get scores srsly. Unless we're talking about half-responsive keyboard or laggy comp, the luck involved in this game is small.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by devonin

Alluding <_<

how the fuck

thanks, jesus christ

[DossarLX ODI]

Take a look at your "the sky is the limit" argument this way:

You are shown two cards: a king and an ace. Remembering the position of those two cards is easy (this is like the excite bike example you're giving: the file is easy, an AAA takes basically no effort).

Now double that number. Four different cards this time. You need to remember which cards are where. The difficulty increases.

Double it again. Eight cards. Keep doubling the number. The difficulty of remembering increases exponentially very quickly. You could very well have remembered all eight, but there may be inconsistency at this point (remembering 7 out of 8, etc.)

Now apply the "four (2^2) was top tier a year ago" kind of logic and keep repeating it, incrementing the number each time. That's basically vibrating from a different standpoint. Reaching 180 BPM 16ths is pretty hard, reaching 190 is also hard, getting to 200 is very hard, and after that it basically becomes a crapshoot when trying to improve.

[Dynam0]

Lots of people over-complicating this for no reason whatsoever..

The vibrating control isn't the issue, it's the maxspeed in order to execute CP's trill. Vibrating control is 100% achievable with practice and even without control, if you have the speed to do the trill all you need is a lucky run; however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people. It's this reason which justifies having it as a token file imo. "Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent. It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks.

It's like having TWWW in public ranks. There are skills to mastering files like that but they are marginal ones.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people

Difficulty increases exponentially as you get to that kind of speed as well as inconsistency. The point still stands.



When you get above 200 BPM 16ths for vibrating, it looks something like this if you tried implementing a function for it. The increase in speed gets smaller and smaller and the best recorded speed in 10 seconds is 160 (240 BPM 16ths). At that point, improving speed becomes marginally small that the increase almost looks like zero. You need to consider inconsistency at such a high speed because a person can do 17 or 18 taps per second but have gaps from going at such a high uncontrollable speed.

[Dynam0]

So the inconsistency is brought about by the raw speed of the trill?? I don't understand how control is the main issue here. Regardless, vibration in general is considered as much of a skill as memorizing bpm gimmicks/visual gimmicks to the vast majority of users.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

Take a look at your "the sky is the limit" argument this way:

You are shown two cards: a king and an ace. Remembering the position of those two cards is easy (this is like the excite bike example you're giving: the file is easy, an AAA takes basically no effort).

Now double that number. Four different cards this time. You need to remember which cards are where. The difficulty increases.

Double it again. Eight cards. Keep doubling the number. The difficulty of remembering increases exponentially very quickly. You could very well have remembered all eight, but there may be inconsistency at this point (remembering 7 out of 8, etc.)

Now apply the "four (2^2) was top tier a year ago" kind of logic and keep repeating it, incrementing the number each time. That's basically vibrating from a different standpoint. Reaching 180 BPM 16ths is pretty hard, reaching 190 is also hard, getting to 200 is very hard, and after that it basically becomes a crapshoot when trying to improve.

Still not invalidating my point. It Does get harder to improve the harder things get, but unless it's proven that there's any objective limit to the maximum difficulty that can be achieved, you can't just say "oh but we, the fastest dudes, can't do it, so it's not possible".

Originally Posted by Dynam0

Lots of people over-complicating this for no reason whatsoever..

The vibrating control isn't the issue, it's the maxspeed in order to execute CP's trill. Vibrating control is 100% achievable with practice and even without control, if you have the speed to do the trill all you need is a lucky run; however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people. It's this reason which justifies having it as a token file imo. "Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent. It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks.

""Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent." I agree, though it's not Impossible. Reaching 500 BPM short streams takes hundreds of hours too.

"It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks." this argument makes sense.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

So the inconsistency is brought about by the raw speed of the trill??

Yes, if you give something outside of a person's comfort zone, the difficulty increase becomes exponential.

If you can't do a faster speed you will be much more inconsistent than a slower speed that is longer.

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Still not invalidating my point. It Does get harder to improve the harder things get, but unless it's proven that there's any objective limit to the maximum difficulty that can be achieved, you can't just say "oh but we, the fastest dudes, can't do it, so it's not possible".

Statistics gives you a lot of information on what is currently possible. Like I mentioned, the highest recorded vibrating speed in 10 seconds is 160 taps by Takahashi Meijin. That's saying that after 240 BPM 16ths the increase becomes so marginally small that it isn't really possible to go above that speed.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

Statistics gives you a lot of information on what is currently possible. Like I mentioned, the highest recorded vibrating speed in 10 seconds is 160 taps by Takahashi Meijin. That's saying that after 240 BPM 16ths the increase becomes so marginally small that it isn't really possible to go above that speed.

Now that is more objective. Now I can agree with you that that speed can be a potential limit in terms of raw speed.

[ssbmchamp]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

I honestly want to see Crowdpleaser removed from the game along with a couple of other files (p4u v1, vROFL) for being near (or flat out) impossible to do physically (on a normal setup) rather than just putting them into token levelranks.

If crowdpleaser is going so should this. At least crowdpleaser you can see the notes so for me p4u is 100% physically impossible where as crowdpleaser would actually be possible since I can see the notes. With that said I think the skill token to get the other version of p4u is bullshit because i can't see the notes in the first place to even have a chance to unlock it.

side note: as far as i'm concerned the DP trill is "vibrating" since vibrating has no exact qualifications in terms of BPM. CP might be faster and harder but both you have to hit really fucking fast in a "vibrating" motion.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Now that is more objective. Now I can agree with you that that speed can be a potential limit in terms of raw speed.

Really though the point here is vibrating is a universally recognized difficulty that is very hard to improve, and when thinking about difficulty we are concerned with what is measurable and possible factors as to how those measurable quantities could be improved.

Considering that most of the FCs on Crowdpleaser were obtained with overlay setup or double setup and that you can even look statistically at how many players have passed hard vibrating files (for instance, how many players have passed Reincarnation challenge? Only a handful), there is definitely merit to considering what is a reasonable limit for vibrating here. Remember we are concerned with data that can be measured, not just saying "The sky is the limit" all the time.